Your solution sounds reasonable and easy enough however that will take time and I do not know how long the President (whoever it is after Bush), the media, or the American people will have the patience to see this thing through. You're talking about generations upon generations having to be 'rehibilitated' not to mention that I feel there will also be those "extremists" who break away from the infidels to destroy us. I mean, we'd literally have to change the culture and world that those people live in over there and that's a very hard thing to do. You look at Palestinians and Jews who have been fighting each other since Christ came to this Earth and they show no signs of stopping anytime soon. So how can we expect to change their ways of thinking if they haven't even begin to stop fighting their "constant" enemy?

As for bin Laden, I heard awhile ago and I still somewhat believe this will happen. But I heard that the next attack carried out on American soil will have bin Laden being apart of it to die as a 'martyr.' That way he can "lead by example" as well as being able to gloat about evading the U.S. for almost 4 years now.

BTW, I want you to know that I'm not trying to fight with you or be difficult. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from more

No disrespect intended, but there is no way would bin Laden ever volunteer on a suicide mission unless he was terminally ill. Even then I seriously doubt he would. The reason? He's too much of a coward to do that. His M.O. is to use his family's money and entice the poor, easily manipulated, and angry Muslims and train them to be radical extremist killers.

The only way I envison OBL taking his own life is if he's surrounded and about to be captured. And if by killing himself could also bring harm to some so-called "infidels" then he might do it.

Related to the London bombing, I found it really discouraging that 4 British people are allegedly behind last week's attacks.
Blair shocked \'bombers\' were British

I know that you are not trying to fight with me. It is obvious that you would like a solution as much as I do.

As for it taking years to do, well if that is the case then so be it! We have NO CHOICE. If it takes years to do and means that in years to come my children and grandchildren can live in a better world, then I am willing to sacrafice my lifetime for the betterment of their future!

And anyway if it does takes years to do and is not easy to do, does that mean we just say, " Aw screw it, it'll take too many years to defeat these extremists and educate them, let the next generation worry about it?" It has to start sometime and somewhere and the time is now and the somewhere is exactly where we are.

As for Bin Laden going on a mission himself, where did you get that kind of information from? I am sincerely curous to know.


Don Cardi

As for bin Laden I read it a long time ago and I think it was just somebody's opinion or "rumor." But I happen to think it's not that far fetched.

Again I'm not against educating these people but do you think this will be just another 'puppet' government that we set up? Also, again, the next President might not have the same thought process and interest in this war and when he is elected might just pull out our troops and say 'aw, screw em." My original question that I was trying to get to was what if that sceniro happens!? What are we to do then??

I don't think that we are setting up a puppet government. I do think that we are helping to set up a government that will be somewhat cooperative with the rest of the world. Look, a democratic governement is way better than a dictatorship anyday, no matter how many ways you slice it.

As for the scenerio that you have brought up, well that is exactly the reason that as voters we need to scrutinize the candidates and vote accordingly. There is no question that the next president of the USA can decided to cut and run. And without starting any debates or arguements, and in just voicing my own feelings and opinions, I believe that if John Kerry had been elected President, he would have been the type to say " the hell with this, let's pull out." And for this exact reason I am sincerely glad that Bush is the president. If you agree with Bush's policies or not, the bottom line is that once he sets his eyes on something and decides to take a course of action, he stays the course and does not crumble under the political pressure from the objectionists.

And under the current situation that my country and our world is in with regards to fighting terrorism, etc. I am glad that I have a leader who is not afraid to protect the citizens of America and it's allies and will not falter under the pressure from those who just don't seem to get this whole thing.

It sickened me last week when the London Bombings took place and then all over the news the same people who only the day before were bashing the war on terror and denouncing the actions of America and it's allies, were suddenly screaming for action against terrorism and basically admitted that they had fallen back to sleep since the Sept. 11th attacks. No one should ever need that type of wakeup call in their lives.

But unfortunately many of the politicians in office, republican and democrat, have decided that they should politicize all that's happened in the world in the past few years for their own political gain. That is a shame and those kind of people and politicians are the worst kind of enemies because with their political rhetoric they embolden our enemies and put us all in harms way.

If you research the political uprising that took place during the Vietnam war, you may be surprised to find out that the North Vietnamese government said themselves that one of the main reasons that they were confident that they would win that war was becasue they knew that America's own politicians and press were denouncing the actions of the soldiers. They knew that they were winning the war right inside America itself.

That is exactly what is going on right here and now when Senators and Congresswoman PUBLICALLY call The Commander In Cheif Of their own nation, during a time of war, a crucial war that may determine the future of our country, a miserable failure and a liar, etc. The enemy feeds off of this and sees that they can win the war right in the American media.

The politicians from BOTH sides need to stop trying to control this war politically and instead allow the Generals nd The Commanders, who are trained to do this, fight this war as they see fit.

People in political power and in the media need to wake up and see that this is not a political game, this is very serious life threatening stuff, and that they need to suport our soldiers and support this war on terrorism and throw out the political bullshit once and for all.


Don Cardi

Yeah they were British 'Citizens', they drove down from leeds and then got a train to kings cross station from Luton, Leeds is less than 200 miles away from where I live aswell, which is very scary and also very sickening that such people that were the same nationality were plotting such evil things and did such barberic acts, there is now a full investigation going into the terrorists and who are their contacts etc, going through every detail of the now identified terrorists.

I see where you're coming from with everyone needs to be on the same side but that's the beauty of America. If you don't feel a certain way that others do, you have the freedom to express your views. I know many people feel passionate about this war and feel it's a good thing (such as yourself) but others who believe they HAVE to publicy denounce the war and cannot sit by ideally and do nothing. I agree that we should all support the troops no matter what. At the beginning I was always for the troops whether or not I was for the war because THEY are the ones over their busting their a$$es. But again, I don't think it would be a good idea if everyone just sat back and had 'groupthink' in this country about the war. That can be a very dangerous trap to fall into and sometimes you need criticism to perform or rethink things better. Sorry I don't have more time to respond but I will tomorrow when I get to work.

I am not saying that people are not entitled to their opinions and views when it comes to war and politics. We all have the right to express our feelings and opinions about such things. But there is a difference in voicing an opinion and making attacks and unfounded accusations. The personal attacks, lies and false accusations against our leaders, made for political gain, are what I am talking about. Those actions are what hurt us in fighting a war like this one.

There is no reason for a senator of this country to come out in public and state that we cannot win this war because our leader is a miserable failure. That is a personal attack and it also undermines the soldier who is out there fighting for us.

Want to debate the way things are being handled in the senate, in congress, etc. ? That's fine and that is what this country is built on. But there is no reason for an elected official to bash our President and undermine our troops just for personal political gain, and we all know that many politicians from BOTH sides do these things not out of real concern for our country, but do do it for their own political agendas!


Don Cardi

But, DC, that is the beauty of politics. The politicians are so concerned with being re-elected, or elected to a higher office, that they will make political hay over ANYTHING. They were quite cautious in the aftermath of September 11th, but after awhile, they started to let go. I think the first was Cuomo when he was campaigning as governor of NY. He openly criticized Pataki and said that all he had done in those days and months following the attack was hold Giuliani's coat for him, or words to that effect. It boomeranged right back and hit him in the a**.

Since that time, as people have become unhappy with the war, and the flag-waving has stopped (remember all the flags you saw in the fall of 2001? How many do you see now), politicians have cautiously tested the waters. In the Northeast, where the voters are mostly democrats, you can probably get away with it more now. Although I know that words of dissent anger you PERSONALLY, you have to see that a politician only looks towards their next term in office. They literally begin fundraising for the next campaign their first day in office. They always have their eyes on the prize.

Or the "ugliness" of politics! I guess it depends on one's point of view.

Basically you have confirmed exactly what I have been saying in my oher posts above : They are only concerned about getting re-elected. And that is a disgrace. It's the way it is, but still a disgrace.

The american people as a whole should all take words of dissent used by any politician, from the left or the right, for their own political gain, personally. All of the people need to see that many of these so called representatives are only looking towards their next term in office and must remember this when voting time rolls around. Bottom line is that many, not all, really couldn't give a damn about the people. They just want to stay career politicians.

It's not personal, it's strictly business.


Don Cardi

Found this

"Police Identify Four Bombers in London Attacks
Authorities Search For Elusive Fifth Suspect
By BETH GARDINER, AP

LONDON (July 14) - Police believe they have identified all four suicide bombers who carried out the deadly attacks on London subway trains and a bus last week, the city's police chief said Thursday.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair told the Foreign Press Association that police believe "that we know who the four people carrying the bombs were ... and we believe they are all dead.''

"We are as certain as we can be that four people were killed and they were the four people carrying bombs,'' Blair said.

His comments were the first public confirmation from police that the July 7 attackers were suicide bombers. Bombs exploded on three subway trains and a double-decker bus, killing at least 53 people, including the attackers.

Peter Clarke, head of the Metropolitan Police anti-terrorist branch, on Thursday identified the suspected suicide bomber who blew up the double-decker bus, killing 13 people, as Hasib Hussain, 18. Clarke also said Shahzad Tanweer, 22, was responsible for attacking a subway train between the Liverpool Street and Aldgate stations. Both are Britons of Pakistani descent.

News reports have identified the other two as Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30, another Briton of Pakistani descent, and Lindsey Germaine, a Jamaican-born Briton.

Blair declined to comment on those reports, and he would not say how many suspects are being sought.

"We don't know if there is a fifth man, or a sixth man, a seventh man,'' he said, but added that police were trying to determine who organized the attack.

Two claims of responsibility purportedly from militant Islamic groups have surfaced.

ABCShahzad Tanweer, 22
· Suspected suicide bomber
· Lived in Leeds, England, all his life
· Visited Lahore, Pakistan, for two months this year to study Islam, according to uncle
· Linked to Aldgate area blast, police say

APHasib Hussain, 18
· Suspected suicide bomber
· Lived in Leeds suburb of Holbeck all his life
· Reportedly became more devout Muslim two years ago
· Property found in bus wreckage


Mohammed Sidique Khan, 30
· Suspected suicide bomber
· Briton born in Pakistan, lived in Leeds until recently
· Father to 8-month-old girl
· Worked with disabled children
· Documents of his found in Edgware Road subway blast debris

Lindsey Germaine
· Suspected suicide bomber
· Briton born in Jamaica


Commenting on the possible role of al-Qaida, Blair said, "Al-Qaida is not an organization. Al-Qaida is a way of working ... but this has the hallmark of that approach.''

"Al-Qaida clearly has the ability to provide training ... to provide expertise ... and I think that is what has occurred here,'' Blair said.

The Times of London, quoting unidentified police sources, said detectives were interested in locating Magdy el-Nashar, 33, an Egyptian-born academic who recently taught chemistry at Leeds University. The Times said he was believed to have rented one of the homes being searched in Leeds.

A spokesman at North Carolina State University said el-Nashar studied chemical engineering there, beginning in January 2000.

Saad Khan, the chemical engineering department's director of graduate programs, said he remembered that el-Nashar applied for admission while living in Egypt. By the end of spring semester in 2000, el-Nashar had decided to pursue a doctorate at Leeds instead, Khan said.

In a statement Thursday, Leeds University said el-Nashar enrolled in October 2000 to do biochemical research, sponsored by the National Research Center in Cairo, Egypt. It said he earned a doctorate May 6.

"We understand he was seeking a postdoctorate position in the U.K.,'' the university said. "His visa was updated by the Home Office earlier this year. He has not been seen on the campus since the beginning of July.


Neighbors said el-Nashar recently left Britain, saying he had a visa problem, The Times reported.

The Daily Telegraph said police were trying to identify a man seen standing near the four suspects on the Luton railway station platform, where they apparently boarded a train for London on July 7.

The Evening Standard reported that police spotted a fifth man on closed-circuit TV of the group at London's King's Cross station about 20 minutes before the explosions.

Late Wednesday, Scotland Yard said anti-terror police had raided a residence northwest of London.

Officers carried out a forensic examination, but police would not say why they targeted the house on a residential street in Aylesbury, about 40 miles from London and 20 miles from Luton - where a vehicle believed to be linked to the attacks was towed away Wednesday.

Reports said Tanweer had been arrested once for shoplifting, and Hussain was once questioned for disorderly behavior.

The Independent newspaper, citing police sources, said one of the four had been linked loosely to a plot to build a large bomb near London. It did not identify the suspect. The newspaper said police described the link as a low-level "association.''

That appeared to be a reference to a ring cracked in March 2004, when eight men were arrested across southern England in an operation that led to the seizure of half a ton of ammonium nitrate, a chemical fertilizer used in many bomb attacks. Several have been charged and face trial."

I have never understood fanaticism of any kind. It is so very disturbing, in every, single way.

DC, it is very sad that politicians function in this manner. Can you imagine that your every response to every question is weighed and measured, and becomes fodder for your competition? I would hate to live in such a spotlight, but they seem to thrive on it, don't they??

Yes, most really do. I too could never live that way. I could never look myself in the mirror.

I grew up with a boy who who's dad was a local councilman in our area. A very good man who really cared about the community and always made his decisions based on the best interests of the community. He is now an elderly man, semi retired and just the other day I asked him why he never ran for congressman. You want to know what his EXCAT reply was ? He said " Because I wouldn't sell my soul for a high postion in politics, I would have never been able to live with myself!"

So there you have it.


Don Cardi

It is quite true. When I was in economic development, I had to work with a number of politicians, local and state. It always seemed that they would have these great innovative idease when they were first elected. Then, the longer they spent in office, the more they would pander to special interest groups. It was always unbelievable to see the change in them as they grew more "fat" and comfortable. On the other hand, you have to attend all of these public meetings and listen to complete idiots prattle on and on about their "concerns". I must admit that I would love the "shmoozing" part of politics, but I would never have the patience to be polite to the people who grab the microphone and babble for an endless amount of time over nothing.

Anyway, sorry for hijacking the thread. This is supposed to be about our friends in England and what they are going through right now, and I apologize to them for going on and on like the people I just criticized above.

Hmmm, maybe you should have been a politician. J/J.


Latest news is that they just anounced a major arrest in Iraq of a top Al Quaida leader. And they say that he's talking like a parrot!


Don Cardi

Senator Babe...Governor Babe....another pezzanovante...

Glad to hear they made an arrest, and I hope that it proves fruitful, like maybe we can find out where the heck Bin Laden is!!!

No disrespect intended, but there is no way would bin Laden ever volunteer on a suicide mission unless he was terminally ill. Even then I seriously doubt he would. The reason? He's too much of a coward to do that. His M.O. is to use his family's money and entice the poor, easily manipulated, and angry Muslims and train them to be radical extremist killers.

The only way I envison OBL taking his own life is if he's surrounded and about to be captured. And if by killing himself could also bring harm to some so-called "infidels" then he might do it.

Related to the London bombing, I found it really discouraging that 4 British people are allegedly behind last week's attacks.
Blair shocked \'bombers\' were British [/b][/quote]Probably a shocking first, I fully agree with what Goombah has said. UBL will never take his own life, because he is too valuable to the cause. He will continue to bend his followers to his anti-western and anti-nonmuslim ideology, tools for him to utilize.

Now there has been bombings in Turkey and one of my closest friends left for holiday in the early hours of this morning to go on holiday there with his family, i'm praying that they are safe and nowhere near these terrible acts

I've just seen the Turkish thing.

For those who might have missed it: Deadly Turkish Minibus Bombing (Source: The UK Guardian)

First picture realised by the police of the four bombers.

The bombers: Hasib Hussain, Germaine Lindsay (dark cap), Mohammad Sidique Khan (light cap) and Shehzad Tanweer.

In a leading newspaper in India which filled its entire first page and another page with London blasts coverage, I found a small news item somewhere in the middle pages about the Iraq blasts on saturday. I was pissed off wondering why death 98 people in Iraq won't gather as much attention as those of London I returned from a vacation yesterday and had not visited this site for a couple of days. After reading this news article, I checked in this board to see what our members think about this, expecting some thread to be there already discussing this. Well, I was surprised, but I won't be, the next time something happens somewhere

Its out of control. 98 people and counting. They are really getting desperate. first London and now this.

ANIMALS!


DS

It broke my heart to read that the US soldiers were giving out candy to Iraqi children when one of the suicide bombers hit. I think that the innocent children are the most heart-breaking victims of all. They have been indoctrinated in hatred and have had their childhood stolen from them. I'm not saying that to minimize other losses; any loss of life is a horror. But, to me, the children are the saddest.

Sicilian Babe, as much as I agree with you that children are the saddest etc.. I also deep down believe that by going after children they are digging their own grave. There are only so many times that a person can say "It's the U.S.' fault that these bombers are killing children" before they look at it and say I just lost 2 children because of these bastards etc...

So yes it is sad and disgusting when they go after children but as I've said with every death that has happened in Iraq, the deaths MUST lead to something, even if its just less people willing to allow these terrorists to stay in their home etc...

I'm with you BIG TIME on that one Sicilian Babe!!!!! It hurts to see any innocent life lost, especilly in that manner, but where children are involved, it makes it even more that harder to swallow. It enrages me when little children fall victim to these kinds of acts.

These bastards have no regard whatsoever for human life of any kind.


Don Cardi

DMC, I pray that some good would come out of all of those losses. If all of these people are dying anyway, then I guess that all we can hope is that it will turn the tide at some point.

So your are saying Nobody should give sh*t about London?
Idiot

So your are saying Nobody should give sh*t about London?
Idiot
[/b][/quote]No, he's saying why should the death of 98 people in Iraq gather more attention than those in London, he never said it mattered more. Or that no one should give a shit about London. You're putting words in people's mouth. :rolleyes:

You figurin' on startin' up again?

Tony, you have shown good email etiquette by putting your name/signature after the message