A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!

A rat is a rat is a rat! Regardless of who they may have ratted on. There is NO distinction made between informers based on who they happen to give up. There is no line in the sand drawn that differentiates between the depth of rats or their levels of informing, of “how much” of a rat they were.

If you opened your mouth about anyone at all, regardless of who they may have been, then you’re a piece of shit.

Whether a given rat provided information to the authorities about a top Italian Mafia boss or a soldier, a top Jewish associate, a peripheral hanger-on, a corrupt politician or cop, or he spilled his guts against a lowly destitute Bowery Bum, that guy has now become, in the eyes of everyone who counts and pays attention to such things, a confirmed stool pigeon!

There is no such thing as, “I only gave them certain things” or “I only gave up a black guy” or “I only gave up a Jewish ‘associate, not an ‘inducted’ Mafia member.” Or, “He was a nobody, so who cares? It really doesn’t count as ratting.”

Once you open your mouth and give information against another person, any other person, then you’re a fucking rat…period!

And that is, hands down, an ironclad and non-negotiable fact of life…fact of street life…and a fact of “The Life.”

Here’s another weak excuse, “I only gave him up because the guy did this, that, and the other thing to me.” Or, “I only talked to the cops this one time because of the circumstances involved. But I’d never do it again, I’m not a rat”

The fact is that once is enough. In fact, once is more than enough! And another fact of life is that if you did it once, then under the right circumstances, you’d do it all over again.

Like I said, “A Rat is a Rat is a Rat!”

And there is no two ways about that!…End of story!
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@NYM whats your opinion on the court case in which Outfit top boss Paul Ricca confirmed to prosecutors that he and acting boss Jack Cerone were present during a meeting with Louie Bombacino (informant and court witness against them)? Because of that Ricca was released while Cerone was sent to jail, but keep in mind that Ricca had serious health issues at the time and was placed in "corner" by investigators, and was still at the top of the organization, meaning the role of the acting boss was to protect the real top admin. So was Ricca a rat in that particular situation?

I don't know the exact particulars about that situation, but that aside, knowing what I do about the mechanics of these types of things, I'd have to say that Ricca was definitely NOT any type of informer or cooperator. I'm sure there were conversations held between Ricca, Cerone, Accardo and other top figures in their administration who vetted and pre-approved such a move for the "greater good" for the Outfit.

I agree and on top of that it was Cerone's mistake for vouching to bring a low level member in a business convo with the Outfits top boss and possibly thats why some guys were mad at Cerone at the time. Although on the other hand, Ricca couldve kept his mouth shut and die in jail, but as you already said it was for the greater good for the organization.

Any street guy who reports on the life is a rat. Period

100%...in any way, shape or form.

Just my two cents..dont forget that the so-called "Life" is evil and deceiving, and also dont forget that because of those same "rats", today we have these mob books, movies, forums, documentaries and all types of sites which in turn gives us at least 90% knowledge on how the US Mafia looked like or still looks from the inside.

You make some good points, however we don't need every rat that comes out the woodwork to have good entertainment. Most of them actually offer us nothing. A few are valuable in that regard. The rates at which guys are flipping these days? It's gut-wrenching and disgusting.

I completely agree with the "we dont need every rat" statement.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Some people are overly passionate about what a rat is. People who claim to be "street guys". I'm not saying any names, but my comment was aimed at them

+1

But if, as you say, a rat is a rat, then imo there is no excuse for Ricca either. If "for the greater good of the organization" is a "justifiable" excuse for giving someone up, then someone could argue that other excuses you listed above would be "valid" also.

What if a group of top leaders agree that certain information can be given because it will not hurt anyone, or if a dying guy says "Give them my name for a few old crimes" I don't consider that ratting, Vito Genovese had guy who he would tell to talk to the FBI, but the guy would give nothing significant. The guy would report back to Genovese and tell hi what they seemed interested in. Genovese would use that info to see who might be pointing them at it. I think in the end, they (The Mafia) decide who is a rat, not us.

In Ricca's case, the information he gave definitely hurt Cerone, even though Cerone had no choice but to accept it. If what Ricca did was not ratting just because he was the boss and had the supreme authority to decide who is a rat and who isn't, then by that logic Joe Massino could also say he isn't a rat because "the boss is the boss" and can do whatever he wants.

We don't know the "true" story behind this entire scenario or even the conversation that took place. We don't even know that anything close to what is purported to have happened, actually happened. Or even what Ricca "supposedly" said or didn't say, understand my thinking here Dwalin?

So this is really all conjecture on all of our parts. Yet, Paul Ricca was a very highly respected mafioso, a boss no less. Over one of the most powerful crews in the U.S., not to mention that fact that he was also a card-carrying member of The National Commission.

So I seriously doubt the context in which he said what he said (or even whether he said anything at all, let alone something along those lines.)

Because if he did say something so off-color as that, or cajoled Cerone into taking the fall like that, boss or no boss, Paul Ricca woulda got hit right in the fucking head!

Especially back in those days...So I take it all with a huge grain of salt.

I understand what you are saying and agree we can't know what Ricca actually said in the meeting with other gangsters, but if he confirmed to prosecutors (as Toodoped said) the information about Cerone, then the thing is on record and became known to public at least after the trial. While I agree it's the mafia that decides what is acceptable for the organization, but if we apply the rigid logic of "no ratting whatever the circumstances" to every single gangster, then what Ricca did was at least controversial in my opinion.

I don't mean to start an argument or anything like that, but that's what I think...

Organized crime can't even function without some level of cooperation with law enforcement, that's what many people just can't seem to understand. This is why you had and have so many CI's, feeding law enforcement tidbits of information so they can stay on the streets and keep operating. At least that's what I think.

There is absolutely NO excuse for informing or ratting. But we don't know that about him....at all. As I say, I take ALL of that with a gigantic dose of salt where Ricca is concerned.

For me, a lot of what has been said about many guys over the years, not just about this subject of ratting, (or not ratting,) but about a great many varied statements and things that guys supposedly did or said during their careers thats now become "gospel" to mob aficionados is a lot of hogwash.

(but thats a topic for another day)

But the bottom line is, as far as rats go..I'll say it one more time, "A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT" - Period!

And thats the end of the fucking story!

I'm sorry Dwalin, but I see no comparison to what Massino did to this. He totally ratted after a conviction, and put a lot of his guys own prison, and even wore a wire in his cell, trying to get his underboss on tape.

You took the words right out of my mouth Jace, I was gonna say something similar but decided to let it go.

I am with Toodoped on this one. This is an evil life and should not be celebrated. If you agree with that, you should also understand that the mob would still be flourishing if it weren't for the cooperators. You can debate until you're blue in the face about what type of people cooperators are, but you can't deny the facts. No one is rooting for the cooperators (who are also criminals and sociopaths), but rooting for the mob is just retarded.

Not everyone in it is evil, that's silly. Bookies, numbers runners, even union guys, most are good. Who bets? Are they evil too? The rats tend to be the ones who were evil, yet they walk free, plus lie by saying what they are told to say for their deal to walk free. LE has always leaked stories to news reporters that exaggerate only the worst of the life, suckers eat it up as truth.

I never called the guys evil. I said the life was evil. There have been plenty of people who became part of the street who were essentially good guys

I agree with @Giacalone. We are talking about people who kill or steal, just so they can go up in some stupid and deceiving organization. And yeah union guys can be evil too because they are able to steal from the workers mouth, same as gamblers who destroy whole families and do terrible things because of their debts. In fact thats how rats are born. Now THATs silly. Lol

Well said. Also, one of the worst things the mob is guilty of is extorting legitimate people. Yes, some came to them for protection and certain favors, but many didn't. We are talking about good people who really didn't do anything wrong except live in a mobbed up area of town. These are things a lot of mob groupies refuse to talk about

Bingo! And in the old days, maybe not so much nowadays, but in the old days...back in the early 1900s thru the 1950s era, many guys grew up in a poverty few of us could even imagine today.

So it might have not been a "pass" per se, but there was a damn good reason why many of them went into the line of "work" they did.

In the year approaching 2024? Not so much!

Whats that old adage? "Before you try and pass judgement on me, go walk a mile in my shoes...even though I grew up mostly barefoot."

that (the systematic extortion)is a prerogative of the Italian mafia, especially Cosa Nostra but also Ndrangheta and Camorra

The biggest mob myth is that they extorted legitimate people, Maybe in 1910 some immigrants were extorted, and I don't want to hear about Italian goat farmers of today getting shaken down in that country. Every case I looked i to where it was legged a legitimate businessman minding his business was extorted there was more to the story than that.

I agree, many times people get themselves involved in shit they can't handle and, just like mob rats, go running to Big Brother.

Same as the 1974 murder of alleged honest businessman Daniel Seifert in Chicago. General story goes that Seifert was an honest guy but later it turned out that he was previously an Outfit associate. But still, believe me when I say that sometimes real legit people were extorted or paid huge vig on their loans, especially in the barber business, and also in the trucking and garbage businesses.



I agree and I think thats another point of view which we all should take in consideration. Thanks @Dwalin2011

Jace, with all due respect, what do you think protection money is? Legit business owners had to pay so that their businesses wouldn't be destroyed. If they operated in someone's territory, they had to pay. These were people who had no ties to the mob. And I'm not talking about loansharking types of extortion which is something totally different because those people borrowed money. But people who were trying to earn an honest living had no choice if they wanted to succeed. So they were extorted. And it wasn't only in the early 1900s...it continued for years and years and years.

To even conjecture that it's a myth the mob didn't extort legit people is ludicrous.

Thats absolutely correct, MS.

Since day one in America, the Mafia has shaken down and extorted thousands of businesses across many sectors of commerce and industries, not just in the "early days" but right up through the 1980s, 1990s and beyond; trucking companies, restaurants, bars and nightclubs, wholesale food and liquor suppliers to those industries, fish dealers in the Fulton Fish Market and other businesses operating along the NY/NJ waterfront, private garbage carting companies, trade associations, freight forwarders at JFK Airport, etc., etc., etc....this list could go on and on. Its never-ending.

If you want to play, pay. They have no problem paying Uncle Sam.

I am in New York for about 12 years now, and have spoken to many people who were around back then, None can recall an honest business being extorted. With all respect, I prefer to go by what people I have spoken to say over government reports or news stories.

They usually did not extort, but worked with them. They may have helped those businesses make more money.

That is often the case.

And I suppose the two of you are on this new bandwagon that mobsters weren't really mobsters at all....just a bunch of Italian guys hanging together on a street corner with no dishonest bone in their body...

No, not at all. Let's not get angry over it. We'll just disagree.

Here's Jace again...conjecturing...

At what age does one go from being a Tattletale to a Rat?

We grew up hearing :"Don't be a Tattletale"
"Fight your own battles" (if at age 7 you were bleeding and tattling on maybe some other kid that hit you over the head with a hammer while your head was cracked open LOL)

That why as little boys growing up in NYC we were all encouraged to join Little League....so we'd learn how to handle a baseball bat. lol

Lol I remember the day when I tried my first golf club and so my wrist almost went in another direction lol

Ahhh another commercial for your site "disguised" as a post.

And the irony of you bitching about mob rats. Ya can't make this shit up.

Nobody likes rats, but rolling over is probably the only good any of these pieces of shit will ever do in life, even if for all the wrong reasons.

Merry Christmas to you too Alice. Glad to see you projecting such "holiday spirit." lol

It's what I do best!

Since we're talking about rats, I recommend the book On The Run by Henry Hills kids. It will snap the romanticism out of any mob groupie.

1st of all, Henry Hill was never in the mob, neither was 90% of the characters portrayed in Goodfellas. 2nd of all, I've been knowing that Henry Hill was a slob, though there's maybe 3 photos with him actually dressing the part. He was for the most part nothing like his Goodfellas portrayal. Lastly, I've never read the book so I can't say much.

"Its what you do best, huh?"...You could very well be right with that, Alice, you just might be right in that assessment, lol.

Alice - or should we start calling you Ebeneezer Scrooge? - considers Christmastime to be so stupid, that even during these blessed days he still can't bring himself to extend any "good will or kind spirit towards others" or even say a nice word, regardless of his personal demons and feelings.


Its "Bah Humbug" right Alice? In fact, he feels that whoever invented Christmas should be nailed to a cross! LOL

The fuck are you even talking about?

He was in the life though, and he was a rat, which is the topic at hand.

Everyone in Goodfellas seems like a Disney version of the real life guys.

What am I talking about? Lol. You mean, what are you talking about, right? You must be looking in the mirror and asking yourself that question.

Go do yourself a big favor "Alice"...and go peddle your papers somewhere else!

Whats that old adage?..."If you don't have something nice to say, its better not to say anything at all."

I suggest you go learn that, and how to act like a gentleman towards others, especially when they didn't say anything negative to you or start any BS with you first.

If Mob movies were realistic in the way these fuckers looked, they wouldn't be popular. I mean these guys were all fucking ugly bums who dressed like shit in real life for the most part.

Lots of dapperly-dressed wiseguys as well. Rush I'm with you, if I'm going to take the risks that these guys take I wanna look sharp as a razor too. I don't think we should get too hung up on it though, but it's worth examining and trying to understand.

A RAT IS A RAT IS A RAT!....

That years ago woulda got a RAT-A-TAT-TAT!

My grandmother one time said they did what they did because "They didn't want to work" .
But I think it wasn't that they didn't want to in every case.I think that some of them just weren't fit to do the jobs available to them.Not everybody can dig a ditch all day.Always believed different people are geared diifrently physically or mentally to do certain things. If you have the mind to be a lawyer but can't read or speak English,and can't dig a ditch,you do what you can do.If there is nothing that you can do available to you,maybe you do what you have to do to survive

That's not meant to be a blanket staement for all of them or maybe most of them.

Some of them lived together crowded in unsafe places not good enough for rats,starving,treated like dirt.
How can anyone expect the modern NYC gangsters to ever be as tough as those of yesteryear
I remember growing up aroundItalian immigrants who were "hard looking",and serious guys.Most of them never smiled.Just don't see that anymore in their descendants.Probably most of them wanted their offspring not to have to be tough and hard. Others wanted to instill a toughness and hardness in their sons even in a legal profession,because they saw the value of that.

Very good post Havana. They had to be tougher then, I think everyone across all walks of life were, but especially to be in the mob or a gang then. Great points.

Thank you Jayce

But you wrote letters to a judge . I saw it on youtube today . Doesn’t that make you a rat ?