I never claimed they didn't leave an extra chair open how would I know if they did that or not and I dont remember speaking to you about that.

I've read the book a couple times and I've read The Sixth Family and a few of the other Montreal books and they all have different accounts of what happened at this meeting. One book even brings up another visit to Montreal by Sal Vitale that isn't mentioned in either Mafia Inc or The Sixth Family. Some books say Vito Rizzuto refused the Captain position and suggested to offer it to his father another book claims Sal Vitale makes Nicolo Rizzuto the Captain and another claim is that Sal Vitale left Montreal leaving Vito Rizzuto as the Acting Captain. So using passages from these books as any type of evidence when they all recount a different story of the same meeting or meetings doesn't hold much water. You also left out the last line on the page where it says something along the lines of "despite all of this Vito Rizzuto remained a good Soldier."

It has never been clear. The United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) considers the family a faction of the Bonanno crime family, while Canadian and most other international law enforcement agencies recognize it as an independent crime family.

You just don't have the stones to admit that you're wrong.

Meanwhile you have the arrogance to respond to everyone else's post with laughing emoticons as if everyone else is an idiot and you know everything. Meanwhile this is how easy it is to catch you in a lie.


The posts were:

I made a typo on the date; you're right to call me on that - it was a 2001 meeting not a 2004 meeting, but the substance of the meeting is the same.

An empty chair sat at the head of the table to the right of Rizzuto to symbolize the missing Sciascia. It was absolutely Rizzuto's intention to send a clear signal that he was done with the Bonannos. Maybe he didn't say "go fuck yourself" but that was the clear implication and thus why Massino was so upset with the results of the meeting - his third attempt at an entreaty with the Rizzutos in the same year.

I never said the Bonannos were relying on Desjardins I was saying that FACTION was the only faction that would take the Bonanno's calls - and I'll stand by that.

Again, this is all documented in the books I have already cited which you have not read.

Do you know how to read?

You responded

Reply Quote Report Email Post
Re: Bonanno Don “Mikey Nose” at war w/Cammarano bros [Re: eastsideofvan] #1050232 02/01/23 05:16 PM
Mafia101 Offline
M
Capo
Joined: Sep 2022
Posts: 328
UsA
It isn't documented in any of those books lol just stop it already.

Nothing I have said is wrong and I don't think everyone is a idiot only a select few like Liggio and now you if you seriously think that reply was specifically directed to the chair thing obviously it was talking about your claims that Vito Rizzuto told Sal vitale Joe Massino to go fuck themselves and that they broke off and the Bonanno Family is now relying on Raynald Desjardins to take them out. Talk about leaving out the context to fit your argument

Good thing then that nobody cares what you think.

Arguing with you is like arguing with a woman, even when the truth is shoved right in your face you twist and wiggle your way out of taking any accountability.

Eastside you just tried putting words in my mouth by taking what I said and applying it to one specific thing you said without the context of the actual conversation. That is not showing the truth that's being manipulative and dishonest to bolster your argument.

Instead of arguing about posts from two months ago why don't you show us evidence of a official Mafia Family in Montreal if that's what you believe? The burden of proof is on everyone who believes the Rizzutos are their own Family.

Apparently the Rizzutos became their own crime family whenever Joe Massino ordered the murder of Bonanno captain Gerlando Sciascia.

That's the popular story but we know its not true. Multiple sources show Montreal stayed with the Bonanno Family years after Gerlando Sciascia was killed.

Deleted. Cut that shit out NOW!

Not exactly:



It’s fair to assume they broke off somewhen before or right after Sal Montagna’s betrayal.

We already know the history. Vito was kicking up to New York long after Sciascia was murdered. That may have ended when Montagna started working with the french guy, but it's all guesswork at this point. Why are people calling them a crime family when no one has any idea if they have making ceremonies or anything of that nature? As far as we know, these are just guys who inherited a drug empire.

101- I read it in a book the 6th family.

I don’t have time to “MAKE SHIT UP”

It is clear to see that your mother never taught you how to play nice in the sand box.

The first sign of wisdom is “KNOWING WHAT YOU DONT KNOW”

I’ll admit I have not read that book in many years so I might not have remember everything 100%
I have no problem looking through the book again to refresh my memory.

I don’t think I need to now because EASTOFVAN pretty much just smacked you in UR MUG, with facts.

If you were 1/2 a man you would fess up and apologize, admit you were wrong.
If your mother never taught you how to play nice in the sand box, she probably never taught you how to admit when you are wrong.

So don’t think your capable.

You could have just asked me where my information
Was from because you never heard that before, before accusing me of making shit up.

I hear what you are saying and it makes sense.
However, they are Italian some of the members were made into LCN, and that is for life.
A lot of them were the from when they were referred to as the Rizzutto family or the Montreal family.

It’s more Semantics at this point.

I said they OPERATE LIKE a drug cartel.
Not that they are.

Technically- is Chicago still an LCN family?
Do we know if they still have making ceremonies?

I personally think they do.
What about Detroit, if go down that rabbit hole we can start to question alot.

Rizzutto is the head of the Montreal Mafia because the “ EXPERTS” THE REAL EXPERTS” the guys that make a living and get paid to write about this topic, that are best selling authors, are on T.V. they consult with L.E. at times.

And the fact that L.E. refers to Rizzutto as the head of the Montreal Mafia.

So if you want to challenge their resume go ahead and post-

1) Why you are more of an expert than Humphreys and L.E. (To name just 2)
2) Your proof as to why they are no longer considered the Montreal Mafia.

Recent Tweet from Humphreys:

https://montrealgazette.com/news/lo...onardo-rizzuto-wounded-in-laval-shooting

101 has been drinking from his own cool-aid, afterwards he crowned himself king.

The absence of a strong leader, will hurt them more in the future.

The Sixth Family makes the claim they're their own Family and that Vito Rizzuto had hundreds of made men in his own Family but offered no proof of any of that. The book was fantastic for a history of police investigations and court cases but missed the mark when it came to anything related to Mafia structure.

I haven't been wrong about anything I've said and all Eastofvan did was fabricate conversations. I don't need to ask you where your information is from because it was wrong. The crews in Canada were and are traditional.



If you have been paying attention to anything I've been saying you would see that I've said we have no idea what the Montreal Mafia is currently. There has been no info that has come out publically and shown any of them are LCN or Ndrangheta or anything else. I'm not saying I'm more of an expert than anyone except for some of you here but I absolutely will challenge any journalist or anyone for that matter who claims Montreal or Hamilton are their own official Mafia Families because there hasn't been any proof of that.

You talk about law enforcement considers them their own Family but in any of the multiple police investigations and court cases that have taken place in the last 15 years none have ever used any LCN terminology like Capodecina/Caporegime Consigliere SottoCapp/Underboss CapoMafia/Boss/Rappresentante or anything like that. In the most recent book from Montreal La Source/Inside the Montreal Mafia the book about Andrea Scoppa there is a quote from a former RCMP officer who worked many of these cases and he said they remain under the thumb of the Bonanno Family. So that's law enforcement at the highest level in Canada saying the exact opposite of what you are.

I already told you and Liggio the burden of proof is on you guys who are making the claim not me. And so far none of you have shown they are their own Family but still insist they are.

Did anyone actually read what Luankuci posted? It probably sent a few of you for a ride since for the last 24 years you thought the Rizzutos became the Sixth Family after Gerlando Sciascia died


Let me lay out the facts for you again.

Montreal has had dozens of if not more Mafia members from many different Families working in the city. They have had American Mafia Family members there and Sicilian Mafia members there. Montreal has had Ndrangheta members and Camorra members there. The only Family that has had a official Mafia crew there is the Bonanno Family. The Bonanno Family is the Mafia Family that most Montreal names we know have belonged to. There has never been a official Mafia Family in Montreal that is known. Whatever the fuck Leonardo Rizzuto and Stefano Sollecito and Vittorio Mirarchi and others are running in Montreal today has never been identified as a Official Mafia Family. None of them have never been identified as official members of any Mafia organization.

Nice chart. What’s the documentary’s title?
I’ll try and see if I can get the same image in a higher resolution.

101- Did NOT see you acknowledge the fact that you were wrong about Massino and Vitale.
?

I wasn't but that's funny how you're caught up on that instead of addressing everything else I said.

Technically speaking, they don't have to have an initiation ceremony to be considered a clan or a crime family. Lots of Camorra clans and other mob groups throughout Italy don't have them, yet they're still considered clans. In America they'd be called crime families, terminology varies from country to country.

yes, in Italy there are several clans (mostly Camorra) that are charged with mafia-type association despite they have not initiation rituals

I will address each part of your post one by one.

My experience when posts are long a lot of posters skip over certain parts because they don't feel like reading a book.
I am probably the biggest offenders of that, with the books I post.

I want to keep this small and that one small so no one can lost on anything.

The reason I chose to address just that first is because you are caught "DEAD TO RIGHTS" for all the posters to see.

You made a statement that was 1000% false after accusing me of "MAKING SHIT UP"
I am waiting I want to see and everyone to see how you handle this.

What says YOU?

Let me guess NOTHING ?

This isn't the gotcha moment you think it is. Someone said Sal Vitale went to Montreal to find out how many members there were. I said that wasn't true and that's right Sal Vitale didn't go to Montreal with the sole reason to find out how many members there were. It might of been discussed but that wasn't why he was there. That's like saying Sal Vitale went to Montreal to go sightseeing because Joe Di Maulo drove him around Sal Vitale's main purpose in Montreal was to take their pulse and appoint a new Captain. If you want to consider this a win for you because you're nitpicking and splitting hairs then go ahead. You won Bensonhurst enjoy it.


So anyway now that I've addressed your pettiness could you please show me any evidence that Montreal has their own official Mafia Family? I think I've asked enough times already.

And if you think a couple paragraphs is a book and too long to read maybe forums aren't for you.

I am right and YOU ARE WRONG, and that is a FACT.

I didn't win anything REALLY because I wasted my precious time that I can never get back going back and forth with a 1/2 TROLL, that GETS OFF on arguing with people on forums.

I'm asking you to prove what you're claiming and you're talking about something completely different. Kinda speaks volumes when you guys are asked for proof and no one can bring any up.


Disagreeing with you isn't being a troll btw you guys are just use to reading the shit off of Wikipedia and posting it here. So when someone comes in and says something different you think it's trolling

i would say that there is indeed a mafia family in montreal. it was once a top to bottom structured family. through decades of internal war the structure of the family has changed. whether any of the cells/crews operating in city are recognized officially by other families is a mute point. there have been large arrests over past 2 decades involving all the same crimes american lcn members get charged with. gambling,drugs,prostitution,extortion,bid rigging what have you. the members have been arrested and charged as members of the montreal mafia. so whether other families consider them a family dont matter if other oc groups in city and more importantly law enforcement recognizes them as such.
montreal has 10-12 different cells led by italian members with some italian associates. simply because there is no record of an initiation ceremony is irrelevant. throughout the entirety of the history of la cosa nostra,'ndrangheta,cammora etc. if we weigh how many possible ceremonies have been carried out against how many we conclusively know actually happened we would be left with a very small number of confirmed ceremonies. how many ceremonies have been caught on video/tape? not many.
and not all criminal groups mafia or otherwise have to share the same rigid structure and setup. to be honest the american mafia structure of a top to bottom pyramid hasnt exactly had great success rate by comparison. so maybe a decentralized cell structure without an overall #1/BOSS and administration could have a better chance of alluding law enforcement penetration.

I disagree Vito. Whether any other LCN Families recognize them as a LCN Family is the only point. If they don't have recognition as their own independent LCN Family they're not a official Family. If they aren't recognized as Amico Nostra they're not even apart of LCN. The same for Ndrangheta if they aren't recognized they aren't apart of that organization no matter who their Family is or their history in any of these organizations. Being Italian and a criminal doesn't make you a mafia member. Having a group of Italians and being criminals doesn't make you a Mafia Family.

Now I agree it's a moot point in the criminal sense because if they're not apart of any organization and are just some ragtag wannabe mobsters living off of their relative's legacies it obviously hasn't affected them. The Hells Angels the Ndrangheta the drug suppliers all still do business with them. But whether other criminal groups do business with them isn't the question at hand.

AGREED 1000%

Vito you just said this in the other thread. I want to ask how do we know no one has told them we don't recognize you as Amico Nostra? Everyone here should know the infamous Cuntreras the other half of the Cuntrera and Caruana clan. For years and to this day people call these guys Mafia royalty and their family name is well established in LCN in Sicily Canada and South America. But in Project Otremens the police agent who was a member of the Bonanno Family told police that Joe Todaro the Buffalo Boss told Natale and Rocco Luppino that he does not recognize Joe and Paolo Cuntrera and Natale and Rocco Luppino agreed they should not recognize them. How could the Buffalo Family call into question the membership status of people who belong to the blood family of such well regarded and respected Mafiosi? To make matters more complicated the Bonanno Family does recognize the Cuntreras as Amico Nostra. My point being we never would've known the Cuntreras membership is questioned if we didn't have the police agent tell us.

The very fact other Mafia Families haven't gotten involved proves nothing and isn't exactly a fact. When Sal Montagna tried taking over Montreal he was in contact with NYC and when Nicolo Rizzuto Jr died and when Sal Montagna died meetings were held by the Bonanno Family. When Vito Rizzuto got out of prison he was rumored to have met Bonanno and Gambino members. All of that shows this was very much a internal LCN matter that involved the Bonanno Family at all points. By the time the dust settled the Bonanno crew in Montreal was decimated and that is when we see the kids of all these former members take over. When Sal and Andrea Scoppa start fighting Leonardo Rizzuto and Stefano Sollecito there were reports that Sal Scoppa had the approval of the Mafia in Italy and in Toronto. In both cases we have examples of outside involvement but we haven't had a inside source breakdown what actually happened and that's the problem.

Too many of us are speaking matter of factly saying they are a Mafia Family with their own administration or they're members of this organization or that organization when we have no proof of that.

1) It is GENERALLY ACCEPTED on this forum that what L.E. states as facts we accept as facts. I.E. if L.E. states the Mafia family in Montreal is called the Rizzuto Family, I.E. if L.E. states that Leonardo Rizzuto is the leader of what is left of the Rizzuto Crime family, we here on the forum will accept that as fact.

2) It is also GENERALLY ACCEPTED on this forum that known authors, journalists, expert opinions are again accepted as facts. I.E. if Jerry Capeci says the Boss of the Bonanno Crime family is Mike Mancuso Or Adrian Humphreys states that the again Leornardo Rizzutto is the new leader of the Montreal/Rizzutto Crime family than those opinions are accepted as facts.

Let me point out I said generally meaning almost always now that does not mean that we accept every statement made by anyone in L.E. at any time, that also does not mean that we will not challenge what L.E. or Experts state as facts from time to time. That is why I said GENERALLY.

With that said in scenarios to whereas L.E. and the most prominent experts are in agreement than we just about ALWAYS ACCEPT THEIR OPINION AS FACT IN THIS FORUMN.

So again, if we have local L.E. the RCMP, Adrian Humphreys, Antonio Nicaso and Peter Edwards all state and agree to the following:

That: The Rizzutto Crime Family is the Montreal Crime family, and that Leonardo Rizzutto is now the head of what's left of the Montreal/Rizzutto Crime family than that is what the forum accepts as fact.

If you 101 wants to challenge what and who we on the forum accept as fact, then you 101 need to PROVE OTRHERWISE.

Let me break this news to you 101 you are NOT THE EXPERT and that is another fact.

1) State your case.
2) State why you believe what you believe.
3) Show us in writing where you are getting your information to form your opinions.

.Why would anyone have to prove anything to you?