Ola knew / would have known - Fredo not know that Michael had asked Pentangeli to meet with the Rosatos? And, not know whether or not Pentangeli was gonna bring his boys?

no one has any other viable "little help" Fredo [needed to] pulling off

Michael already Roth's successor -- Roth's heir apparent
No negotiations little gift for the President and turn over Havana operation Roth didn't need any! information from Fredo

Just a note: the Johnny-Fredo conversation establishes Fredo as a traitor, it also establishes Ola (and presumably Roth) as the adversary. We don't really have a scene like Luca's murder or the Sollozzo-Tom dialogue, so without Johnny's phone call the audience could go deep into GF2 uncertain who the bad guy is.

. Eh that’s a big stretch. Again there is no evidence to suggest he was consciously conspiring with Roth to take down Mike. Being resentful is evidence because like I’ve mentioned before we’ve all probably had those type of feeling at some point in our lives but we don’t act on them. There is still much more evidence pointing to the fact that Fredo stupidly and naively thought he was helping Mike and the Family while at the same time doing it on own. I don’t think it’s a big departure from Part 1. In Part 1 we see him trying to be capable for his family but he can’t seem to do it as we saw with Vito’s assassination attempt and he breaks down. Same situation here he thought he was helping but it backfired.

As Pete posted, I think it's a reasonable inference that he could open the drapes for him.
True Turnbull That's where my thoughts been taking me, too.


No doubt Fredo was guilty of something that enabled the Tahoe shooting
Can't see him killing the shooters so the "little help" I too reckon was opening the drapes

We also can't overlook his many lies
Have we ever come up with any other viable "little help" that is useful that is other than opening the drapes?

True Turnbull he was such a nonentity in GF.
He had no problems with that because it was his father and older brother running the show

GF2 he's nursing a big grudge against his kid brother and is conspiring with Michael's enemies in a deadly plot because he was stepped over! by his kid brother


It looked like Fredo was in charge -- uh – everything! Otherwise why would Michael say I don't want to see you at the hotels --

He may not have been included in the Havana deal, Tom wasn't either
It looked like Fredo was running or involved in the casino empire – “big casino-hotels, brothels, Fredo's specialty! Entertainment - the whole operation

I too reckon, neither Roth nor Ola were after any information from Fredo at all whether it be the Havana deal or Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting because I too believe, both Roth and Ola knew / would have known, Fredo didn't / wouldn't have any -- Roth didn't need any!

Sums it all up

You are correct Johnny's phone call establishes to the audience, Fredo is the traitor in the family

We already know by the time of the phone call, Roth-Ola are the adversaries and their linking to the Tahoe shooting

If my memory serves me right, I can't recall any, from what we saw in the movie and/or the Board, any of us coming up with any other viable "little help" that we can see Fredo pulling off....

Was Fredo “learning the casino business under Moe Greene" or was Fredo banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!

"rough and humiliating apprenticeship"?!

• Geary set up Ref: J Geoff Malta Transcript - Inside a Fredo's club [one of many?]

Fredo and Tom walk in and shake hands with the Manager
The Manager says “Freddie, good to see ya” like he hadn't seen Fredo for awhile

Was Fredo continuing his old tricks! leaving the Manager, to oversee, the players got their drinks!

That was no Donship!

Spot on! Sums it all up indeed

There are probably a thousand things. The shooters have to access the property, conceal themselves there, find Michael's quarters, do the shooting, flee, then someone has to kill them, and they have to flee. Any of those functions might require "a little help." Note that Michael doesn't spend the movie searching for the drape opener. The drapes are never mentioned again.

How do we know that?

Michael told Pentangeli It was Hyman Roth that tried to have me killed. I know it was him.

Don't know Pete Any of those functions and smuggling in the machine guns too Very conspicuous, attracting attention Fredo pulling off?
Finding Michael's quarters is the easy bit because the drapes were open

Difficult -- not impossible for the GF2 deadly Fredo

. Again where is the evidence that Fredo was deadly?

Michael to Roth: "FRANK PENTANGELI came to my home and he asked my permission to get rid of the Rosato brothers. When I refused, he tried to have me killed."

He said both things to both men at different times. The Tahoe shooting brought out the Master Manipulator in Michael. First he practically reduced Tom to tears by telling hom "You're my brother." Then he practically brings Pentangeli to his knees by yelling at him, "...in my house,...in my bedrooom.. ," then asks Pentangeli to help him take his revenge. "Michael, anything..." (Frankie practically in tears). That's when Michael asks him to put his head in the lion's mouth by meeting with the Rosatps. Then he bullshits Roth by callng him "Mister Roth," then telling him he's a "great man," then asking his permission to whack Pentangeli. Great stuff, Mike! You'd have made a good Presidential candidate.

Roth started! the BS
The sequence was -
1. Tom
2. Roth
3. Pentangeli
4. Ola's phone call to Fredo

“Michael doesn't spend the movie searching for the drape opener” because Michael is a wise and considerate young man!

if anything in this life is certain -- if history has taught us anything -- Hell hath no fury like a brother stepped over!

Michael didn't ask the tough questions! among others -

• why would Roth and other partners, go along if Michael moved Klingman out and take over their Hotel
• why would Roth in Miami, interest himself in a two-bit beef between the Rosato brothers and Pentangeli, in New York and against Pentangeli, Michael's man
• why would Clemenza promise the Rosato brothers three territories in the Bronx after! he died
  [signing his own death warrant.... That was no heart attack]
• why would Clemenza promise anything? at all to the Rosato brothers
• who opened the drapes
• who killed the Tahoe assassins
• how did Roth know "The two million never got to the island"
• Then how did Roth know "Fredo brought a bag full of money" Okay Roth's sixth sense!
• how Fredo got out of Havana -- he must be somewhere in New York
• what happened to the Corleone family in New York, their loyal caporegime good old man Pentangeli, who was loyal to Vito for years, Cicci -- who did what to whom -- and taking care of their families
• how did Kay get the abortion
• what was Fredo's little help
• what was Fredo's something in it for me -- on my own

Then again if Michael had, what will we debate half a century on!

I'm done with this thread.

Right out my window! They're lying there dead!
Who open their drapes

why he asking his permission to whack Pentangeli. Michael's man

Roth started! the BS

Don't know Turnbull that he was asking his permission to whack Pentangeli.
I reckon it was a statement Then Pentangeli is a dead man, you don't object.

I can't see him being careless in thinking that Roth would buy and be fooled by that bullshit, the Top Mafia Don was asking his permission to whack his own man, who tried to have him killed.

I reckon Michael had worked out, on the Train, it was -- Roth all along... must be Bussetta's water concoction but wonder did Roth suspect he had

This Board's had debates -- for and against about things we don't see on screen for the last fifty years -- it's in our blood, believe me, I know. I've been coming here since the 20's.

tough question we ask Michael Why did he trust Fredo with Roth will never see the New Year.

This is a perfect example of how greed makes otherwise smart men stupid:

Of course Roth should have wondered why the mighty Michael Corleone would ask his permission to whack one of his ow subordinates. But Roth was too greedy for the $2million to see the trap Michael was setting for him. For his part, Michael should have been asking himself why Roth--who lived in Miami and had business interests in Nevada and Cuba--would interest himself in a two-bit dispute between Pentangeli and the Rosato brothers over three territories in the Bronx. But he was too greedy for Roth's Havana casinos to see the trap Roth was laying for him.

True that was one of the tough questions Michael should have been asking himself
also if it wasn't a statement, then Roth should have been asking himself, why the mighty Michael Corleone was laying down to him

It also should have occurred to Michael that Mr. Roth would work out when the dead man Pentangeli turns up at the Rosatos, he'd been ruled out and he could be suspecting him

I too reckon, their traps for each other, ended up trapping themselves

Sure thing That was one of the tough questions “Michael should have been asking himself”

However I believe that was Roth's grave mistake as well "interesting himself in that two-bit dispute" which showed his hand
ie: if not for Roth's that mistake, Michael could never have suspected Roth, in the Tahoe shooting
1. Roth had just gifted! Michael their hotel by going along with Michael moving Klingman out
2. Roth was in the process of gifting! Roth's Havana empire

• Greed

I don't think Roth was a greedy man
Roth was living the life of a retired investor on a pension! in a modest house, tuna sandwich for lunch....

I believe Roth was not greedy for Michael's $2 million [Michael was all set to be murdered New Year's Eve with or without the $2 million] but of course if it fell into Roth's lap, Roth will take it Bonus! and added bonus Michael's own money paying for his own murder

I also believe the $2 million was another clever tactic of Roth's, to lure Michael to the Havana carrot
1. Michael to meet the President and be anointed as Roth's successor -- Roth's heir apparent
2. and bribe the President with Michael's little gift for continued protection and free to make their profits

Whilst Michael's greed made him careless, saying stupid things and nearly undone himself with Roth, Roth's lust for revenge, undone himself with Michael

Roth was as murderous and ruthless, turning brother against brother

He exploited the troubled and vulnerable Fredo to exact his revenge on Michael

He never thought about Fredo -- he never gave a damn about him even if he had become the Don how he may have suffered for the rest of his life that I killed -- he contributed to the death of my brother. He injured me. I killed my mother’s son. I killed my father's son.

He was to have been dead that night so luring Michael to Havana was a ruse to keep him completely relaxed, and confident, in our friendship until the Tahoe shooting

How He injured me.
Fredo injured him Michael not injured him

He warned don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever.