I have skimmed through the various threads who killed them but I couldn't really find anything why there had to be these assassins in the first place other than to frame Pentangeli because looks like they were hired out of New York

I reckon even bigger risk just for Pentangeli connection, when whoever killed them, could have carried out the shooting himself Simpler

The phrase "it looks like they were hired out of New York" has always bothered me. What, exactly, about their appearance indicates where they were from ? Just for fun,let's say they had ID in their pockets. Surely,nobody in that business carries legitimate documents,especially when on an assignment to kill a major Mob Boss. Even if they had a Ferrara's cannoli in their pocket,and wore T-shirt's that said "I love Rao's" I don't get how they would've been tied to New York.

Yes, you have to wonder about what constitutes a "New York connection." It'd be in Roth's interest to make them look like they were hired out of New York, the better to keep the finger pointing at Pentangeli.

I always figured that they were just guessing g and figured nobody else would try to make a move on Mike besides NY considering the events of GF1. Like Turnbull says I’m sure Roth expected that too. Let’s be honest Roth pretty much outsmarted Mike throughout the whole film and it was only pure luck that Mike survived that attack. That’s pretty impressive considering how powerful Mike is at the start of the film

If Kay hadn't mentioned the drapes being open,I have no doubt Mike would've died that day. It's kind of ironic that Kay saved Mike's life,only to have him ruin hers.

Roth's interest to keep the finger pointing at Pentangeli spectacularly failed
As we debated in Did Roth sort of win? thread: True Woltz let's not overstate the impact he had on Michael and luck had little or nothing to do with it

Michael was expected to be dead, machine gunned in his bedroom
I reckon noone would have suspected Roth and his "New York connection." wouldn't have mattered but he overthought it which ended up pointing the finger at him, when Michael survived

How would he know Rocco would say looks like they were hired out of New York unless that was their plan
Then was Rocco the second traitor and the one who killed the two assassins?

Then why couldn't Rocco carry out the shooting himself?
Just the one assassin not three No doubt less risky less complicated

Sure thing Evita “Just the one assassin [already in-house] not three No doubt less risky less complicated”

Roth had indeed "overthought" the plan being fixated, in framing Pentangeli and ended up in a tangled web
Huge and unnecessary risk, smuggling in and then hiding the two assassins who would have had to wait around until Michael entered the bedroom “when whoever killed them [the assassins] could have [easily] carried out the shooting himself Simpler”

Besides wasn't enough time? after the machine gun fire when everything was galvanized into immediate action – sirens, spot lights, guards, dogs and everyone was running around all over the Tahoe compound – without being seen, among others

• to kill the two machine guns armed assassins
• to drag their bodies into the ditch, where they were found
• to hide their machine guns

Coppola and Puzo too much anisette!

Hallelujah! Who opened the drapes? has been solved! It was Kay

Kay was waiting for Michael to be blasted by machine gun fire and when that didn't happen, Kay asked Michael “Why are the drapes open?” hoping Michael would move closer to the window, to close the drapes so that the assassins could get a better shot at Michael

• Let’s be honest Kay ruined Michael's life and became his horror

Kay knew when she married Michael, Michael was Mafia and Kay was quite knowledgeable too

Michael to Neri ; "I don't want anything to happen to Kay while my mother's alive"
Neri : Kay? Ypu mean Fredo"
Michael: "Fredo's a punk.He could never have pulled off a hit on his own. But I didn't know until this very day that it was Kay all along"
"She broke my heart Al,she broke my heart"

Kay biggest hypocrite broke his heart also abortion
She told him Anthony knows that you killed Fredo He know she killed his unborn brother

We always knew Michael were too smart to let Roth beat him

So we now say Rocco was the second traitor and the one who killed the two assassins?

. Look I do t believe in abortion but Kay was in an impossible situation. She was desperately trying to save her kids from being around that life and I guess in her mind she felt her unborn son was going to be groomed by Mike. Mike pretty much said that without saying it

. Yes Mike was very smart BUT like I mentioned earlier it was just pure dumb luck that he survived. No matter what you think of Roth that old man was extremely smart and cunning without having the type of muscle that Mike had

Roth's overthought plan of too many assassins, botched a simple hit of machine gunning confined space of a bedroom

If he had someone as implausible as it is


Why bother with the assassins in the first place “when whoever killed them [the assassins] could have [easily] carried out the shooting himself Simpler” Makes no sense whatsoever

Michael and Kay, sentiments aside....

Michael had already told Kay, very clearly, he won't let her take the children from him that it is an impossibility
Even after that she tells him about the 'abortion' the murder of their unborn child as if

What about the already born son who was left to be around that life, she, the mother was escaping from

I bet she didn't tell Anthony about his brother she killed Biggest hypocrite no doubt

No doubt Roth was not as smart and cunning as Michael
Also overthought, missed his chance and became the hunted one

1. Rocco or whoever the second traitor who killed the bedroom shooters
2. why there had to be these shooters in the first place
Too hard basket! No one has the answer

I started a thread about Roth's plan and how stupid/unnecessary it was. All he had to do was bide his time for a couple of weeks, have Michael killed in Cuba, use his connections to the Bautista regime to blame it on Castro and his rebels and he wins. Instead ...

That’s fair. Although Roth’s Initial Lake Tahoe planned attempt on Nike was pretty brilliant. Let’s be honest if not for Kay Mike was an inch away from being killed and Roth basically taking over. Also how he turned Frankie against him was pretty smart as well

It's a smart move Roth was always smarter

planned attempt good on paper but he overthought it Every plan fizzled out, ended up in a tangled web Sure caused some grief to Michael but Fail
Let’s be honest if not for Military Roth was an inch away from being killed

pretty brilliant pretty smart yet dead Roth

Tahoe shooting Fail
two million Fail
Havana killing Fail
turning Frankie Fail
perjury Fail
Jew in Israel Fail
Buenos Aries Fail
Panama Fail
retired investor on a pension Fail
US return Fail

Tahoe shooting was a brilliant plan but executed poorly Too many variables
Huge and unnecessary risks just for the "New York connection."

How'd Michael know it was Roth?

If Michael had died?
As Turnbull posted All Roth would have to do would be to sit back and let them fight each other
Then pick up all the Corleone business after all the bloodshed

If Michael had survived without the obvious blind Freddie "New York connection." set up, considering - Roth played this one beautifully Roth had Michael completely relaxed and confident, in their friendship - Michael may not have figured,

And nobody, figures out it was Roth all along

• Also Evita's original question

why there had to be these assassins in the first place “when whoever killed them [the assassins] could have [easily] carried out the shooting himself Simpler” No doubt less risky less complicated Makes no sense whatsoever

Again, Roth's fixation in framing Pentangeli was doomed for failure

from the thread lucab19 started
Roth's plan. Really?

I believe the Tahoe shooting would have been a sure-fire hit if, among others -

Again, Roth's fixation in framing Pentangeli was doomed for failure

Exactly He acts like I'm his son -- his successor Roth had Michael completely relaxed and confident, in their friendship

He was slippin' with Pentangeli as the fall guy Then again, Michael was expected to be dead, machine gunned in his bedroom
This is what happens when Vito's shooters are recycled!

Ahhh! that little farce Roth played, fooled a Corleone [until Michael survived the Tahoe shooting]

Michael still didn't see through Roth even after Roth in Miami was backing up the Rosato brothers in New York against Pentangeli the Corleone caporegime

Coppola and Puzo too much anisette!

• what was Fredo's wife, Deanna doing outside when the compound had just been machine gunned
• did Deanna spot the bodies through Fredo and Deanna's bedroom window “just lying there dead!”
• was their bedroom drapes open?! too

Actually who delivered the "New York connection." lines? according to the transcript it was not Rocco, it was a buttonmanAnother one that makes no sense “I don't recognize them” because whoever said the lines, would know! every contract killer other than “hired out of New York”?!

Was it relief "We won't get anything out of them now" that the dead assassins can't implicate anyone

There's a big difference between asking someone to provide information, or maybe even open drapes, and asking someone to kill their Don.

First of all, there's a totally different skill set involved. Fredo was apparently very useful to Roth as an informant. But would you trust him to carry out a hit?

Plus, the assassin's role is pretty much a suicide assignment. If no assassins were found on the compound, it would point to a very small group of suspects (even if the killer was not caught in the act, was able to hide the gun, get back to their room, etc.). Any chance of advancement in the new Corleone Family would be ruined even if they survived. Why would they agree to do that for Roth?



Maybe, but I think it was more like a few months. That's a long time to wait. A lot could have happened in that time, such as Michael figuring out that Roth is his enemy (actually, I think Michael already knew, but didn't expect such an aggressive move from Roth), Michael making further inroads in Roth's Nevada holdings, Fredo slipping up and revealing something, etc.

Good points Woltz makes perfect sense Same as Paulie and Tessio setting up but not actually pulling the trigger

If Michael had died, would there be any Corleone Family? I reckon in the ensuing chaos the likely scenarios are with noone knowing Fredo's involvement

Tom probably would have taken off unless he felt responsible for Fredo and stayed around for awhile to help him out Futile though

Fredo might try to claim the Family as the only blood male left but can't see it happening

The most likely outcome as I see is, Neri and Rocco fighting each other for control and Roth sitting pretty to pick up the Corleone business after all the bloodshed

There is also this implausible sequence of events even superman couldn't have pulled it off!

If there was no Tahoe shooting and Michael was to be killed in Havana, there would have been no need to recruit Fredo or backing up the Rosatos

I am not sure Michael was figuring out that Roth He acts like I'm his son -- his successor is his enemy until after the Tahoe shooting
I reckon that's where Roth was slippin'

Michael would have turned up completely relaxed and confident, in their friendship and be a sitting duck
However it still could have certainly raised significant suspicions that Michael was the only one who died

You organise a massacre and have Michael as one of the many victims. Wrong place. Wrong time. A lot of hand wringing and shedding of crocodile tears.

still could have certainly raised significant suspicions that Michael was the only one from Roth party who died

How you figure because dead men tell no tales They still wouldn't know who hired them

Pentangeli did and warned him

Glad it was not Rocco

Why would he be the only one? Easy enough to sacrifice a couple more lesser members.

Don't know lucab19 how to get the lesser members to go in the ride with Michael? Sightseeing tour!
Also no one least of all Roth was expecting the Castro takeover So hard to organise a massacre without the rebel uprising

Sure thing “There's a big difference” in “setting up but not actually pulling the trigger”
However the fact remains there was a traitor in the family who was complicit in the murder attempt on Michael – it still “would point to a very small group of suspects” one or more, who set their Don up to be murdered

“If no assassins were found on the compound” I believe it would have worked even more in Roth's favour because of the unease of mistrust that one of their own was not just complicit but actually killed Michael and everyone watching their backs, contributing to “the ensuing chaos” and "bloodshed"

It also would eliminate the

My take, for what it is worth!

I doubt Michael was “figuring out that Roth is his enemy” Michael seemed to have been completely taken in! by Roth even after the Tahoe shooting Michael initially believed it was someone inside telling Tom
ie: It seems Roth was not even suspected

Roth had Michael, pretty much in the palm of his hand!
I believe where the incredibly resourceful and astute Roth erred in his meticulous preparation is his overthinking and the recurring, people overestimating themselves and underestimating their opponents instead of KISS!! thus showing his hand
Also hiring assassins who couldn't shoot fish in a barrel!

Michael was lapping up! everything Roth was spinning in his web of deceit until the Tahoe shooting
We see how Michael was disgusted with himself that he hadn't seen through Roth's deceit when having drinks with Fredo in Havana

Roth would have quietly taken back! whatever Nevada holdings Roth 'lost' to Michael and continued to live like our average neighbour, harmless old man, retired investor on a pension!

Extracts:
Michael was the only one who had the perception that the "Rebels can win"

at the end of the day, it was a stroke of luck for both Michael and Roth as if Batista hadn't been forced to resign, I believe –

• Michael would undoubtedly have been murdered by Roth's pre-arranged assassins, in the military car plan or somehow if Michael refused the protection offer
• Roth too would have died smothered by Michael's bodyguard Buscetta in his hospital room

I'll concede that it's not clear that Michael already suspects Roth.

But Michael tells Pentangeli that he knows Roth is backing the Rosatos. It's hard to imagine that it didn't strike ever-paranoid Michael as odd that Roth would insert himself in a turf war over three territories in the Bronx. Backing the Rosatos was not, to coin a phrase, the act of a friend.

Michael's failure was not believing that Roth thought of him as a son, it was thinking that Roth wouldn't push back against Michael's aggressiveness, either because there was so much money at stake that Roth wouldn't want to jeopardize their deal or because Michael didn't really think Roth was someone who would resort to violence.

These different, interesting and varied takes, are what keeps this, what a nice board! still going decade after decade indeed

Fair points Woltz but the confusing discrepancies for me are -

Roth already had the Havana business So Michael is the one who “wouldn't want to jeopardize their [Roth-Michael] deal” because there was so much money at stake for Michael not Roth which I believe Roth knew as well Hence Roth's play on Michael's greed

Pentangeli always! knew never to trust Hyman Roth, Michael to never give his loyalty to Roth before his own blood indeed
Whilst Michael may have looked sheepish that's exactly what Michael did! because he didn't want his important business with Hyman Roth disturbed ie: greed blinded him even if it did “strike the ever-paranoid Michael as odd Roth backing up the Rosato brothers

It seems to me Michael's failure was “believing that Roth thought of him as a son” but you are right, Michael was not expecting any “push back” from Roth because I believe, among others -

• Roth has anointed Michael as his heir apparent! to Roth's Havana business And all it takes to cement this father-son alliance /succession, is an introduction to the Cuban President and a gift of $2 Million
• Roth will go along with Michael moving Klingman out – I doubt it even occurred to Michael as to why Roth and other partners would just let Michael take over their Hotel and be okay with it? [This is different to Greene's because the Corleones bankrolled that Hotel]

A constant theme in the Trilogy (and the novel) is how greed (and thirst for revenge) blind otherwise intelligent men to obvious dangers to themselves. Michael's greed for Roth's Cuban gaming empire blinded him to the obvious: Why would Roth, who lived in Miami and had business interests in Havana and Nevada, interest himself in a petty quarrel between the Rosatos and Pentangeli over three territories in the Bronx? Didn't it occur to him that Roth might be plotting to put the Rosatos in charge of the "Olive Oil Business" in NYC--Michael's muscle?.

Roth's greed for the $2 million blinded him to the obvious: Why would Michael, whose last words to Roth in Miami were, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man," then spare Frankie and send him on a mission to "settle these problems with the Rosato Brothers"? Didn't it occur to him that Michael was signaling that he didn't blame Frankie for the Tahoe attack--and might blame Roth instead?

Michael could have had Roth squashed like a bug in Miami. Roth could have had Michael squashed like a bug the moment he stepped off the plane in Havana. Neither did. The marvel of the "This is the business we've chosen" scene in Roth's hotel suite in Havana is that, by that time, each of them probably knew what the other was up to, yet they both hung tough to the bitter end: Michael wanting to learn who was the traitor in his family, Roth for the $2 million.

Good Point Turnbull! Mike and Roth ate very similar. Both are very intelligent but ruthless. Both are blinded by greed and revenge. Both survive assassination attempts in the middle of the film by pure luck.

Great analysis Lana Bada bing! with the unknown traitor who actually killed Michael still in the family loose even more chaos” and "bloodshed"
He was slippin' inserting himself in a turf war backing up the Rosatos against Pentangeli the Corleone caporegime, Pentangeli as the fall guy, was his failure

I reckon this fixation in framing Pentangeli is what handed Michael the decisive victory and he was comprehensively beaten
He could have outsmarted Michael but let him outsmart him by overplaying his hand

If there was no "New York connection." I reckon Michael would have been pretty much clueless trying to figure out who was behind the Tahoe shooting

You are right Woltz, Michael was not expecting “push back” from Roth, who had just gifted their hotel! he probably would not have been, even in the frame and could have continued flying under the radar

I reckon, each of them knew or almost knew, what the other was up to, by that time of their meeting at Roth's house but "This is the business we've chosen" scene in Roth's hotel suite in Havana no doubt confirmed it

They hung on: Michael wanting to learn who was the traitor in his family and Roth for Michael to be taken home in a military car -- alone-- for his protection

My take, for what it is worth!

• Greed

I believe Roth was not a greedy man, for the Corleones' Nevada properties nor Michael's $2 million [Michael was all set to be murdered New Year's Eve with or without the $2 million] but of course if they fell into Roth's lap, Roth will take it Bonus! and added bonus Michael's own money paying for his own murder

Michael's greed, nearly undone himself with Roth [not just people like Paulie, Fabrizio and Tessio]

• Revenge

Roth only started plotting revenge on Michael when Roth felt Roth had to “gift” Michael their Hotel, then to stop Michael “making [any] further inroads in Roth's Nevada holdings” and eyeing Roth's Havana business

In fairness to Michael, Roth was stringing Michael along among others “gifting” their Hotel and pretending “to go along” instead if Roth had been honest perhaps Michael and Roth could have worked out some mutually beneficial arrangement not dissimilar to Roth's Havana business Then both Michael and Roth could live happily for a hundred years!

How'd Michael know it was Roth?

Anybody kinda rooting for Roth to beat Mike?

red herring assassins killed and bodies into the ditch before machine gun fire

Who opened the drapes? Again!
Sure thing “red herring”

There was a car at the gates, driving off probably the killer of “the dead guys” escaping, just after the machine gun fire and Michael's guards were shouting Stop! Stop! then Halt! Also the sentry was slack leaving the gates open

Fredo little help revenge for good friend Moe

Wonder Ola played up, in addition to Roth's empty promise Donship carrot, how – among others -
1. Michael murdered Fredo's good friend [and mentor] Moe Greene
2. Fredo can't bang cocktail waitresses two at a time!
3. Fredo's kid brother, Michael is the Head of the Family
4. Fredo is being taken care of by Fredo's kid brother

No doubt he'd have really worked Fredo over, smothering him with empathy and sympathy, starting with Greene and how he had such a good life before his kid brother spoilt it all for him and then how he was stepped over what was his birthright

also real drinks, superman

• Anthony's party

I hadn't noticed this before Ref: J Geoff Malta Transcript
Did Fredo and Ola come to the party together?! in the same boat?

• Roth was slippin'!

Roth's house in Miami - If Pentangeli was small potatoes how could Pentangeli have engineered the Tahoe bedroom shooting "In my bedroom! where my wife sleeps! In my home!"

Roth's Havana Hotel room

I was under the impression they come by car
She was not happy Head of the family is kid brother not Fredo

Roth was slippin'! also Greene soliloquy

The transcript is wrong. I just went over that scene, frame by frame. As the boat pulls in, Rocco rushes over to greet the occupants. Fredo isn't among them. The very next scene shows Pentangeli, drinking from a hose, then shouting greetings at Fredo, who's wearing a very distinctive plaid jacket.that we'd have noticed if he'd disembarked from that boat.

Quite correct TB.

Thanks Turnbull so that was no Fredo ferry service! Fredo was not sent to pick people up! for the party


Thanks also Capri - the deleted scene
Fredo and Deanna arrive at Anthony's party

Deanna humiliating Fredo in every turn -
1. why Fredo was scared of his kid brother
2. lingering handshake with Merle
3. not a real man insult and in front of all those people at his brother's - the Head of the family - house
4. and in front of all the family, guests, staff

Fredo shoulda married a woman like Michael did! -- like Kay

Michael's first question -- a woman like Kay know I'm back?

Michael's questions to Tom in Vegas on Michael's return from Cuba

• First - Kay know I'm back?
• Second – Christmas gift for his son Anthony Nothing! about his daughter Mary
  Quote

  Michael: The only wealth in this world is children, more than all the money and power on Earth
  You [Anthony not?! Mary] are my treasure
• Third - Fredo

You're still my brother
Michael still offered Fredo safe passage home from Havana even after having “just learned that Fredo had betrayed him, nearly resulting in his and Kay's being killed”

What a brother! Such brotherly love because Fredo was still Michael's brother