i'm curious as to what you guys think about michael having tessio killed. obviously, he didn't really have any other choice, since he couldn't let him get away with betrayal, but did michael assume that clemenza would do nothing? in realtime, a lot of time passes from the murder of tessio till clemenza's displeasure (in the form of pentangelli), but in movie time, if you watch gf 1 and gf2 back-to-back, about 20 minutes separate the two instances. i only ask because clemenza, the don, and tessio go way back, as we know from the flashback scenes in part 2, so they're obviously very loyal to each other. because of clemenza's loyalty to vito, he would naturally have no problem being a capo under mike, but if the don is dead and michael has his other life-long friend killed, wouldn't that weaken his loyalty a bit? he was already skeptical of michael when he and tessio approached the don about forming their own families. i know that he would have understood that tessio had to die because of his betrayal, but i still think that michael should have suspected that clemenza's loyalty might not be as undying to him as it was to his father and therefore should have been more prepared when pentangelli showed up at tahoe a little peeved. i was just wondering what your takes might be.

1. Tessio was killed in 1955. Clemenza died in 1958 (Frankie is wearing a black armband signifying mourning for Clemenza at Anthony's party, which occurs late in '58).
2. Michael initially thought Clemenza would betray him. He and Tom were surprised when Tessio showed his hand first.
3. You have to figure that Michael told Clemenza about Tessio's betrayal before the day of the Great Massacre of 1955. He needed Clemenza's cooperation.
4. The novel points out that Tessio and Clemenza had separate territories, and the Don didn't encourage them to be close--the better, perhaps, to keep them from conspiring against him. He gave Tessio great freedom, but kept Clemenza near to him because Clemenza was the wilder of the two, and needed controlling. So, it's doubtful that he and Tessio were close friends. What's more, Clemenza benefitted from Tessio's execution: he inherited the "olive oil business in New York" without having to share it with Tessio.

Remember Michael telling Tom at the Don's funeral about Tessio's intended betrayal in response to Tom's opine that he thought it would have been Clemenza: "it's a smart move. Tessio was always smarter".

Turnbull - I don't know if I agree with your 1955 date. I'm thinking 1951. 1955 would put events almost ten years after Mike kills Sollozzo.

Any thoughts so this?

Actually Clemenza's people "took care" about Tessio. It is clearly said in the book. Michael told Tom to send Clemenza to him, that he will instruct him personally, and after that Clemenza's people will take care of him.
In fact, by making alliance with Barzini Tessio betrayed not only Mike, but all of them. If Clemenza wouldn't like to lay under Barzini he would be wiped out! And Tessio betrayed Vito as well as Michael, because Barzini was a sort of deadly enemy of Vito's, having Sonny killed, and wishing to kill Mike in Sicily. I think that Tessio's betrayal would indignate Clemenza even more than it did Mike.

Don't go there my friend! Never question Turnbull's knowledge when it comes to these matters! Turnbull is correct, it was 1955 when Tessio and the heads of the families were exterminated. Michael was in Italy for 3 years. Then when he returns it is another 3 years before Michael goes to Las Vegas to start to get things in motion. Then Vito dies almost 3 years after that. So it is now 9 years after the murder of Sollozo which puts the year at 1955!


Don Cardi

Okay, I just perused the novel and I cannot find any substantive references to years except Tom's reference to it being almost 1946. What are your's and Turnball's dates based on?

Ok, so it's 1946 When Sollozo and McClusky are murdered, correct? Then Michael goes to Italy for 3 years, so when he returns it's 1949. Then it takes him two years before he finally sees Kay and marrys her, hence 1951. Then Vito dies in 1955. The hits take place right after Vito's death.


Don Cardi

Don Cardi, I really want to lock this down. Where does it say that Mike was in Sicily for 3 years and that he was tutored for two years after his return? I don't recall.

The novel alludes to Don Vito dying in either 1954 or 1955. The book made mention of the Corleone house as not having such a celebration (as Vito's wake) since Connie had been married (in August, 1945) about ten years earlier. The movie had Vito dying in 1955 (as noted on Vito's tombstone).

I took the novel in hands and gonna figure that. About ten years may mean from 8 to 12 - that's find smth. more definite. When Mike leaves Kay in the hotel, it is said that if someone told her that she will not see him until 3 years passed...
So, he spent 2,5 years in Sicily and 6 months before she contacted him. Then we find about his trip to Vegas: "It was almost 3 years now since he had returned home and over two years since he had married Kay." 5,5 years since the murder. When he is back from V. he tells the Don, who asks him "when will you start?" - "A year from now." And then we read: "He was patient, to use the full year to prepare. But he was not to get his necessary year, because..." Here the Don dies. And after the funeral Mike says to Tom: "I needed about four more months..." So that was 8 months more. 6 years and 2 months. If the murder is near the New Year eve 1946 , that makes early spring of 1952 the date of the Great Massacre.

I don't follow your logic at all. Even IF the "about ten years" mention is only 8 years since Connie's wedding (and I think its more), then Vito died in mid 1953.

I just meant to say that words "about" and "nearly" may mean anything at all, as well from 1 to 20. That was not part of my logic, the logic begun after that. And I made a mistake typing,of course, i meant to write early spring 1952. See explanation. I'll edit the first post.

SC, I think that he is trying to figure out the timeline from within the book itself. I don;t exactly recall dates that were in the book. But from the movie itself, I do know that the dates I gave above are pretty accurate and add up to about ten years.


Don Cardi

Here is the recorded timeline :
THE CORLEONE TIMELINE
1945 - Connie's wedding - last Sat. in Aug 1945;
1945 - Michael & Kay window shop on Dec 22; Kartoum beheaded; Don gets shot
1946 - Michael kills Sollozzo and McCluskey; goes to Sicily.
1947 - Michael marries Appolonia
1948 - Sonny killed; Vincent born. [DVD says 1947]
1949 - Michael returns from Sicily Victor Rizzi born [DVD]

1951 - Michael & Kay get married; Anthony born
1955 - Vito dies July 29 [DVD says 1954]; Michael Francis Rizzi born & baptized
1955 - Michael kills the Heads of the 5 Families, Carlo, Moe Green & Tessio
Last updated - 29 Sep 02

Don Cardi

As we all know, the dates are imprecise because they come from many sources, some or all of which could be wrong (for example, the DVD says Vito died in '54 when his tombstone very clearly shows '55).
DC, your chronology is as good as any I've seen. BUT, other dates are possible:

1946 - Michael kills Sollozzo and McCluskey; goes to Sicily: EARLY in '46, because the Xmas/New Year's decorations are visible in the restaurant. It's possible Michael shot them before 1/1/46.

1947 - Michael marries Appolonia
1948 - Sonny killed; Vincent born. [DVD says 1947]
1949 - Michael returns from Sicily Victor Rizzi born [DVD]
1951 - Michael & Kay get married; Anthony born

All of these events could have occurred earlier. When Sonny beats up Carlo, we see a "Dewey for President" poster on a wall. Many people think that puts the scene in 1948 or later because Dewey was a candidate in '48. But Dewey was a candidate in '44 as well, which could put the scene in '46.
I think Michael probably married Appolonia in '46, because the novel sets the scene where he met Appolonia: "It was nearly seven months of leisurely rustic living before Michael felt real boredom." If he arrived in Sicily in 1/46, he'd have met Appolonia in 8/46, and as we know, he married her right away. He looked like a honeymooner when he got the bad news about Sonny, which could have put Sonny's death still in 1946. The Don called the famous meeting when he learned of Sonny's death, so that meeting might have been held before 1947. When Michael goes to New Hampshire, he tells Kay, "I've been back a year." The Cad limo that follows him is a '47, and we see a '47 Ford Woody wagon in the background. That scene could have been set in '47 or no later than '48. Of course, it could have been in '51, and the cars could have been four years old at the time. But FFC usually used current models. More important, I don't believe that the families would have let the Five Families War of 1946 go on for three or more years. It would have been too dangerous, and too costly. And did Vito really require three or more years to recover?

Now, that's a timeline that follows GF and the novel. But, if we go by GFII, we note that Anthony's party is set in '58 and Kay says that Michael said "the Corleone Family will be completely legitimate" seven years earlier. So, that would put the New Hampshire scene in '51. If they married right after, and she got pregnant right away, Anthony would have been about seven in that scene.
One thing that doesn't seem to track in your timeline, DC: Victor Rizzi was unlikely to have been born as late as '49. If he was, he'd have been only nine years old when he was "arrested for some petty theft you know nothing about" (Michael to Connie). Connie was pregnant with him before Sonny got shot. I think Victor was born in '46 or '47.

Turnbull, of course you bring up some very valid dates and points regarding the dates. I agree with you about it probably not taking 3 years for Vito to recover. But I am only going by the DVD dates, the timeline on Geoff's site, and now the date set in the new book. I also would take into consideration that at the end of GFII, in the flashback scene, we know that pearl harbor was attacked that day, which would make the year 1941, agreed? Michael has said that he has joined the service. So he enlisted in 1941 and would be discharged in 1945, the year we see him show up at connies wedding. The Bells Of Saint Mary's debut was 1945. Vito shot that same year. Jump to 1/46 when Sollozo is killed by Mike. Sonny is killed in 48.
The Don calls, a meeting to get Michael back home. If I remember correctly the book says that it took about a year ( I could be wrong ) for the Don to make all the arrangements to get Mike home safely, So that would make it now 1949. You also bring up about Kay's remark to Mike in GFII, which is now taking place in 1958, about the family becoming legit seven years earlier. Anthony being born in 1951 would make him 7 years old, you are right, because fist holy communion is usually done at 7 years old. So in 1955, when the don dies, Anthony should be about 4 years old, and in the movie he looks to be about that age when the Don is playing with him. Yes, I agree that there are many inconsistancies, but the bottom line is that The heads of the familes and the killing of Tessio was done in 1955. I believe that was his original question.


Don Cardi

Well, I now think that both Cardi and Turnball have it right. Their timelines make sense now that I think about it. One of the problems I had was leaping from post WWII to the mid 50s. It seemed that too much time then would have passed between events. Thanks.

First, here are two MINOR changes to the timeline issue:

1. Connie & Carlo's exact wedding date was August 25, 1945.

2. Vito was shot Friday, December 21, 1945 (the newspaper that day reported a boxing match at Madison Square Garden on that day).

To make this issue a little more befuddling, Puzo's "The Sicilian" has it that Mike returned from Sicily in 1950!

Add to this still another source - the movie's script. There's a scene written in which Vito asks Michael to "be my son". In that scene Vito and Mike discuss whether Mike has thought about getting married and starting a family. That scene is dated "Spring, 1951". Thus, even if Mike got married in 1951 its likely that his son Anthony was born in 1952. This date would match the movie's dialogue when Mike announces that his 3 year old son reads the funny papers (shortly before Vito died in 1955).

We're mixing apples and oranges here (the book vs. the movie) to get our information. I believe the 1954 date for Vito's death (thats on the DVD extra disk) came from the book. Obviously we see the 1955 date for his death on the tombstone, so do we take the book or the movie as the gospel?

In any event, I believe the killing of Tessio to have taken place in 1955. Thats when "The Godfather Returns" has it, and thats when Part I has it.

No Oranges, PLEASE!

I agree that 1955 is year of the killings!

As far as taking the book or the movie as gospel, I origianlly posted to Turnbull that I figured Olivent was going by the book and could not find dates. In truth though, the book for any story is gospel in my mind. But as we discussed last friday evening, the writer of the new book mixes facts from the book with facts from the movies! Geez, now I'm confused myself!


Don Cardi

She... Yes, I really tried to derive all possible facts from the book, and the book only. But the movies have obviously different timeline, and that on DVD must be from movies. That timeline may have 1955 as the year of killings. That interferes with the book, but we see so many inconsistencies between the book and movies screenplays, that it doesn't seem strange.

I just started a thread about some of the timeline inconsistencies in the "DVD" forum.

Yes, and it's even more apples and oranges if we try to reconcile GF and II.
In GF, we're certain about these dates:
--Connie's wedding (August '45).
--Don's shooting (just before Xmas '45, and it's reasonably certain that Michael did the job on Sollozzo and McCluskey just a few days later).
--Don's death (7/29/55 according to the tombstone). It's reasonably certain that the Great Massacre occurred shortly after that.
All the dates in between are up for grabs. DC and others have made a case for later ('47 and later) dates, I made a case for earlier (mostly '46) dates.
But I think we have to look at GFII as another entity altogether in considering dates:
--The Senator says Michael was "responsible for the murders of the heads of the Five Families in 1950";
--The flashback gives the Don's birthday as December 7; the tombstone in GF lists April 28.
--Vito looks no older than nine when he flees to America in 1900. The tombstone in GF says he was born in 1887, which would make him 13 in 1900. No way is little Vito a 13-year-old.
--In a deleted scene, Clemenza introduces the teenaged Roth to young Vito. The DVD says it's set in 1917. Roth looks to be between 16 and 18, Vito looks about 30 (which would be consistent with his birth in 1887, as shown on the tombstone in GF). BUT: Roth's birthday cake shows him celebrating his 67th birthday in Havana in late 1958. That would give him a birth year of 1891, making him either four years younger than Vito (if we go by Vito's tombstone in GF) or about the same age (if we go by the appearance of little Vito at the beginning of GFII).
--The timeline and the dates given for the deleted scenes are so off kilter that it's almost pointless to refer to them.

if you go by the script in GFII, during Michael's Senate hearing, these dates are mentioned ...

CHAIRMAN
The witness has testified that you are personally responsible -- for the murder of a New York City police Caption in 1947 and with him a man named Virgil Sollozzo. You deny this?

MICHAEL
Yes I do.

CHAIRMAN
Is it true that in -- in the year 1950 you devised the murder of the heads of the so-called five families in New York. Who assume and consolidate your nefarious power.

The years 1947 and 1950 are clearly wrong and do not follow anything close to the correct timeline.


Also, the opening to GFII has the tag ...

THE GODFATHER WAS BORN VITO ANDOLINI IN THE TOWN OF CORLEONE IN SICILY. IN 1901 HIS FATHER WAS MURDERED FOR AN INSULT TO THE LOCAL MAFIA CHIEFTAIN. HIS OLDER BROTHER PAOLO SWORE REVENGE AND DISAPPEARED INTO THE HILLS, LEAVING VITO, THE ONLY MALE HEIR, TO STAND WITH HIS MOTHER AT THE FUNERAL. HE WAS NINE YEARS OLD.

This has Vito born in 1892 and does not match the tombstone.

for a timeline that makes as much sense as possible, go to ... http://www.umich.edu/~themafia/timeline.html

In this case a few days later also means it separates years.... Vito was shot in 1945 (December 21st), but Mike killed Sollozzo and McCluskey in 1946 (probably early January). This is noted in the novel when Puzo wrote that on the day of the killing all gambling and other illegal activities were clamped down on by the police. That same day a bomb was detonated at the Corleone mall, and thus began the Five Families War of 1946.

UK, the Senator says that Michael devised the murders in 1950 which is not quite the same but I agree with you this is probably a mistake that slipped through. On Vito's birth, if we accept that he was born on 7th Dec then it's most probable that he was born in 1891 as he still would have been nine when his father was murdered (judging by the weather it looks like late sping/summer of 1901). The timeline you linked makes a lot of sense with a few exceptions e.g. Sonny's death and also it states that Vito sent Fredo to Vegas in 1945. In the film it was Sonny/Tom who sent Fredo to Vegas after the Don came home from hospital probably in spring 1946. A small point I have raised before about a mix up in the timeline is that the Corleones moved to Long Beach in 1939 (this is from the book I think?) yet in GFII when Mike visits Pentangeli he refers to having to be quiet whenever they played outside his father's office. Mike, you were 19 when you went to live there, a bit old for playing in the corridor??

definition of devised: to plan to obtain or bring about.

I don't think he was planning this attempt for 5 years. He didn't even come back to the US until 1951. How could FFC makes such a BIG mistake in the script?

(but who knows, maybe Michael DID think about it after being told of Sonny's death and especially after Appolonia was doing something she wasn't suppose to be doing in the first place. I hope the ladies who watch that learn something!!)

Agreed UK, this is a script mistake that was never picked up.