I found this article on Christianity Today (see I don't just read leftist material!) and I am interested in Christian comment on torture.

5 Reasons Torture is Wrong and there should be no exceptions (Complete with Bible verses to prove it.)

I'm not really expressing an opinion here but why are the same people who keep referring to the separation of church and state in many arguments bringing up religion when it comes to things like this?

Good point.

Good point. [/b][/quote]Because it's the right wingers who support this torture and who happen to live by the bible.

That is a massive generalization, Patrick. I would consider myself a Rebuplican, and I think the Bible is full of shit. At least most of it is IMO.

No surprise.

Haha, it's good to hear that from you, DVC. It helps restore my faith in the Republican party. I'm so tired of hearing about church and religion and shit like that in political debates and on the news. When it comes to this torture shit, many republicans are for it (as they're for other cowboy shit, like capital punishment), though they consider themselves a party with morals.

I said I'd consider myself a Republican because I lean ever so slightly to the right. I personally hate politics, and hate discussing them, but when something is bullshit, I'll call it. And this current administration is infested with neo-con scum.

That is all.

As for torture, I'm mainly against it...I guess it would depend on what kind of person that would be receiving torture though.

Patrick is not saying that all right wingers are in favor of torture.

He's saying that all of those in favor of torture are right wingers.

Big difference there.

I found these versus from the Quoran today( See, I don't just read Christian or Hebrew material)and I am interested in YOUR comment about these teachings and what they've lead to :

"When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."


"Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes."


"The punishment for those who wage war is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful."

Daniel Pearl, a journalist for the Wall Street Journal, had his throat slashed by Muslim extremists. Pearl's captors made a video, titled The Slaughter of the Spy-Journalist, the Jew Daniel Pearl.

Reported by AP

Paul Johnson, a 49-year-old Lockheed Martin Corp. employee, was kidnapped in Riyadh last Saturday.
His body was found Friday in northern Riyadh soon after an Islamist Web site posted photographs of his decapitated body. One photograph showed a severed head sitting on the back of a headless body.

Reported by CNN


Iraqi insurgents abduct hostages and broadcast their capture, and in some cases their beheading, using homemade videos. These videos are often broadcast via the Al-Jazeera news agency or directly thru militant websites.
Tom Fox, abducted 26 Nov2005
James Loney, abducted 26 Nov2005
Norman Kember, abducted 26 Nov2005
Eugene "Jack" Armstrong, abducted 16 Sep2004
Kim Sun-Il, 33, abducted 14 Jun2004

Reported by AP


Tell us about the torture of terrorists, but don't talk about the beheadings and killings of Journalists and Contractors. :rolleyes:

And to add to what Don Vercetti said, how is it that the same people who advocate the seperation of church and state want to all of a sudden quote biblical passages?
I guess when it suits your own cause then it's ok to mix religion with your politics.

It is obvious to me that in your mind, putting a pair of panties on a terrorist's head, or putting a dog leash around a terrorists neck is much worse than slashing a reporters throat because he's a jew or cutting a civilian's head off for the world to see.





Don Cardi

Touche' , DC!! Thanks for pointing out that there are smorgasbord political/religious quarterbacks (i.e., folks pick and choose what they wanna pick and choose while ignoring the rest of the plate) on both sides of the fence! I'd also like to point out how we've seen on this BB (and, though indirectly, in this thread) how it's such a huge no-no to have negative opinions about aspects of the Muslim faith and the Quoran, yet it's apparently a really cool thing to put down Christians and the Bible?

(Pssst! DC! Watch 'em backpedal and say, "When did I put down Christians and the Bible??")

DC, as you might know, Islam is not my cup of tea, but I've had to study it. So, I've some comments on your post.

The third quote has been taken out of context. That's actually the torture that Ferro of Egypt warned to the sorcerers who converted to Jewish faith after they saw Moses turned a stick into a dragon or other miracles to this effect. He told them if they start following Moses, they will have to confront those tortures.

I really would like to know the verse number for the second quote, as I need to verify that.

All and all I don't say Islam is the religion for peace. I know lots and lots of quotes about tortures for adulterers, thieves or those who drink alcohol and it goes on and on. After all this was the religion that tried to tone down the primitive Arabs who were killing their infant daughters, looking down to women and throw them out of their houses when they aged, drank and lived but like human beings. Compelling this religion on civilizations around though, that was a huge set back in civilization.

And I'm still waiting on the 72 virgin references, but still no one has provided me with the verse number. Do you really think, someone as rich as Osama, if had lived in SA couldn't have thousands of virgins right here on Earth in his Harem? That 72 virgin might be the fantasy of any man outside SA or some other Arab countries where polygamy is illegal, but you'd have to look for more motives about a suicide bombing when it comes down to those who follow Islam. Islam wouldn't ban men of having as many women as they want.

But still the question stands, and that's personal for some people, but how is that some who cry to prevent abortion, are for bombing that results in killing hundreds, including women and children? And if they are really followers of the person who was tortured, crucified and yet asked for forgiveness for those who did him wrong, how could they agree with torture?

And how is that only those we don't like are called terrorists, but those who bomb villages, where also children are living are not? We all are full of contradictions, and for what's worth, let's not attach ourselves to higher beings thinking we are the chosen ones. The simple fact is, there is no difference between us if any of us chose to do inhumane, because then we would be inhumane, no matter what nationality or religion we've.

How does this apply? I don't follow the Koran or the Bible.

Or are you saying that since the Koran says things that are logical the Bible does too so we should follow neither? what is the point?

I found these versus from the Quoran today( See, I don't just read Christian or Hebrew material)and I am interested in YOUR comment about these teachings and what they've lead to :

"When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."


"Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes."


"The punishment for those who wage war is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful."

Daniel Pearl, a journalist for the Wall Street Journal, had his throat slashed by Muslim extremists. Pearl's captors made a video, titled The Slaughter of the Spy-Journalist, the Jew Daniel Pearl.

Reported by AP

Paul Johnson, a 49-year-old Lockheed Martin Corp. employee, was kidnapped in Riyadh last Saturday.
His body was found Friday in northern Riyadh soon after an Islamist Web site posted photographs of his decapitated body. One photograph showed a severed head sitting on the back of a headless body.

Reported by CNN


Iraqi insurgents abduct hostages and broadcast their capture, and in some cases their beheading, using homemade videos. These videos are often broadcast via the Al-Jazeera news agency or directly thru militant websites.
Tom Fox, abducted 26 Nov2005
James Loney, abducted 26 Nov2005
Norman Kember, abducted 26 Nov2005
Eugene "Jack" Armstrong, abducted 16 Sep2004
Kim Sun-Il, 33, abducted 14 Jun2004

Reported by AP


Tell us about the torture of terrorists, but don't talk about the beheadings and killings of Journalists and Contractors. :rolleyes:

And to add to what Don Vercetti said, how is it that the same people who advocate the seperation of church and state want to all of a sudden quote biblical passages?
I guess when it suits your own cause then it's ok to mix religion with your politics.

It is obvious to me that in your mind, putting a pair of panties on a terrorist's head, or putting a dog leash around a terrorists neck is much worse than slashing a reporters throat because he's a jew or cutting a civilian's head off for the world to see.





Don Cardi [/b][/quote]

Because I'm not starting an argument on the Church and State. I am soley interesting on how one follows the bible and follows torture. I am sure this is only one man's interpretation of the Bible on this, what is yours?

How am I putting down the bible when I am asking for an opionion. As I said, this guy uses the bible to go against torture, what is your interpretation? Does it differ?

Yea, my title was a loss leader, but my question didn't "put down the bible"...instead I agreed with it for once!

I wonder, SB, if Don Cardi and Snake really don't see that an analogy between those who advocate separation of church and state and citing passages in the Bible which are against torture is like comparing apples and eggplants.

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

Here are the verses Afs :

Qur’an 9:5 "When the sacred forbidden months for fighting are past, fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, and lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."


Qur’an 8:12 "Your Lord inspired the angels with the message: ‘I will terrorize the unbelievers. Therefore smite them on their necks and every joint and incapacitate them. Strike off their heads and cut off each of their fingers and toes."


Qur'an 533 "The punishment for those who wage war is to murder them, crucify them, or cut off a hand and foot on opposite sides...their doom is dreadful."

Afs, my post was not meant to discredit the Islamic fath, or to say that it is a religion of violence. My post using these quotes was to prove to another member here, who conveniently tried using the Christian Bible and Jesus to forward her own cause, that one can take teachings from ANY religion and find passages that "suit" what they are advocating.

As for your answer about the 72 virgins, I did mke a post a while back explaining where this came from. Here is what I said :

There is a passage in the translaed version of Islam's holy book : "Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)"

Nothing in the Koran specifically states that the faithful are allotted 72 virgins apiece.

But what it actually says is : "The least reward for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."


So obviously it talks of Heaven being full of full breasted mature virgins and the reward of 72 wives.

But what it comes down to is a matter of interpretation, just like other parts of the Koran and basically just like many parts of other religious teachings from the Bible, the Torah, etc.

It is obvious that the extremist islamic terrorists use these passages, just like they use and twist many others in the Koran, to justify their own ideals and beliefs.

So that is where the talk of 72 virgins comes from.



Again, I was not looking to attack the Islamic faith by any means, for if you think about it, you rarely EVER see me get involved in religious debates or abortion debates, as I realy believe that these two issues are very very personal issues and that these are very sensative issues. With this topic I was just trying to make a point, one that Snake, in his post above, rightly picked up on.


Don Cardi

I don't use the bible to form any of my opinions. I use my own mind. I am religious, but I don't use it for forming opinions about society.

Thanks for giving the verse numbers, but the third one doesn't make any sense. There are always two numbers for each verse, one as you might compare it to the Bible's book number and the other, being the actual verse number in that book. I'll verify the other two when I get home sometimes tonight.

So, would you please give me the verse number for the above quote?

I don't care if you state your opinion about a certain religion, whether you think it preaches violence or not, as I already stated that Islam is not about peace and I'm not fond of it anyway. However I still don't see the connection of the original question with your post, because that was actually a personal question for Christians as how they justify torture while Jesus as their pattern was not for it. Still, I wouldn't mind it, as long as it is based on facts and I was interested to know the verse of those quotes and give some comments on your post.

Patrick is not saying that all right wingers are in favor of torture.

He's saying that all of those in favor of torture are right wingers.

Big difference there. [/b][/quote]He is, however, saying that all right-wingers live by the bible, which is indeed a massive generalization.

I didn't say anything about 'all right wingers.'

The "ring-wingers" aren't doing much to defend this claim. Bush refers to God and biblical things all the time in his speeches. Many Republicans stand for the things in which the bible 'supports'. Pro-life, war, the 'right to life', capital punishment, anti-gay marriage, the Catholic Church.

I stand with Patrick in saying that not all Republicans follow the bible. However, the "religious right" is not a fairy-tale.

Getting back to the torture question. Yes, I believe that torture is wrong, and that just because the other guys do it, doesn't me we should be able to do it too. However, I think it's foolish to very publicly state what our interrigator can or cannot do in the course of their job. The only thing that telegraphins our playbook accomplishes is allowing potential captive to plan ahead so they can be more subversive.

All right DC, I did my homework.

This is 5:33 as I found it. This obviously is about those who kill, or harm others. It calls for eye for an eye punishment and has been taken out of context. Still, according to Islamic rules, you can perform eye for an eye punishment even if the person repents. But here it goes as it has been quoted:


In 5:31, story of Cain when had just killed Abel and how he learned to bury his brother as a crow was digging the ground is being told, it continues in 5:32:

And so we told the sons of Israel that if anyone kills an innocent person who has done no wrong, is as he has killed all people and if any of you saves a soul is as he has saved all. We sent our prophets with miracles and reasoning, yet people continued their wrong doings. 5:33 Therefore, those who disobey and start war with God and his prophet shall be killed or crucified or a hand and foot on opposite sides of their body shall be cut off or they shall be sent away from your land. This shall be their punishment in this life, there is even more bitter tortures waiting for them after death." 5:34 Unless they repent, and God forgives those who ask for his forgiveness.

There is the exact same torture as I said in 20:75 as well, when sorcerers convert to Jewish faith and they were warned not to follow Moses.
This has not been translated correctly. This is actually directed to the prophet (Muhammad) after a successful war :

8:12 And remember when your God sent his message to you through angels: I'm on your side so believers must be kept strong in their path, as I shall put terror in hearts of nonbelievers so that you could cut their heads and fingers. (That's obviously in the war.)

This one is when Muhammad and non believers in Mecca reached an agreement, but non-believers welched. There are four months that every creature is safe in Mecca, this has been a custom for ages there. God tells his prophet that non-believers have four more months to be in Mecca and then they can kill them if they be caught there. (That's true even to this day but it is not applied to other places.) Still this has been translated pretentiously.

9:2 Non believers have four more months to be in this land [Mecca]. ....9:5 So when the sacred months are over, capture them, and ambush them; unless they repent, pray and help the poor, and your God is merciful. 9:6 If one of them surrenders to you to hear the words of God, he shall be safe and after preaching him, he shall be sent home in peace, because these people do not know [the words of God]. (many enemy of Muhammad used this to still live in Mecca and be safe.)

Jeez, I can't believe I wrote all these that I normally call nonsense.

Thanks Afs, for clearing that up. Of course I can only take the word of someone who's translated the Koran, as I cannot read Arabic. I am glad that someone like yourself was able to give the correct translation.


Don Cardi