Who are your top 10 modern world leaders?
mine:

1. Mohandas K. Mahatma Gandhi (India)
2. Winston Churchill (The United Kingdom)
3. Pierre E. Trudeau (Canada)
4. Franklin D. Roosevelt (The U.S.A.)
5. Mustafa Kemal Ataturk (Turkey)
6. Vaclav Havel (The Czech Republic)
7. Nelson Mandela (South Africa)
8. Eamon De Valera (Ireland)
9. W.L.M. King (Canada)
10. Lester B. Pearson (Canada)

Honourable Mentions: Robert L. Borden (Canada), John F. Kennedy (The United States of America), Theodore Roosevelt (U.S.A.), Louis St. Laurent (Can.), Woodrow Wilson (U.S.A.)

#1,2,4,7 would be in my top 10 too. IMO, Konrad Adenauer (Germany) deserves a high spot too. He was the best politician/leader Germany had. He also had very difficult conditions, Germany after the World War but he knew which direction to go. Truly one of the greatest!

GEORGE W. BUSH & RONALD REAGAN.
TONY BLAIR & MARGRET THATCHER
TEDDY ROOSEVELT & HARRY S. TRUMAN

The only world leaders with any balls!

The rest of the world leaders like Charac could learn something if they follwed the path that these great leaders have taken.


DS

Gee, I wonder why you like him DS?


Don Cardi

Give JFK some time and he wouldve been a key figure in foreign affairs if he wasnt assasinated

I doubt Thatcher had any balls :p
But foreal, Tony Blair is besides Juschentschko (Ukraine) the only politician in Europe I really respect today. The Iron Lady was great too, especially reagrding the Kuwait/Saddam "thing" back in 1991.
Even if its not about the worst politicians, but Chirac would top my list for the "dumbest politicians in western democraties" :rolleyes:

But, what if those balls are dumb balls? :rolleyes:

1. FD Roosevelt
2. Mandela
3. Ghandi
4. Churchill
5. Verhofstadt
6. Kennedy
7. Allende
8. Lenin
9. Adenauer

But, what if those balls are dumb balls? :rolleyes:

1. FD Roosevelt
2. Mandela
3. Ghandi
4. Churchill
5. Verhofstadt
6. Kennedy
7. Allende
8. Lenin
9. Adenauer [/b][/quote]You are kidding about #8 right? I know its opinions but to put idiots like Lenin in the same list like Ghandi, Kennedy and Adenauer is an insult.

To quote Reagan:
How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.

Wait, not so fast. :p You haven't heard yet why I put Lenin in the list. It's not what you think it is, though.
I don't feel like explaining now, but I'll do it tomorrow. Okay?

But, what if those balls are dumb balls? :rolleyes:

1. FD Roosevelt
2. Mandela
3. Ghandi
4. Churchill
5. Verhofstadt
6. Kennedy
7. Allende
8. Lenin
9. Adenauer [/b][/quote]You are kidding about #8 right? I know its opinions but to put idiots like Lenin in the same list like Ghandi, Kennedy and Adenauer is an insult.

To quote Reagan:
How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. [/b][/quote]If you are anticommunist, Aziatic, why do you call him Idiot? If understanding of his works must make people anticommunists, you should rather praise him...

1. Franklin D. Roosevelt
2. Winston Churchill
3. Theodore Roosevelt
4. Ho Chi Minh
5. Mohandas Gandhi
6. Vladimir Lenin
7. John F. Kennedy
8. Joseph Stalin
9. Mao Zedong
10. Bill Clinton

No order;
Ronald Reagen
Mahatma Gandhi
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Nelson Mandela
Winston Churchill
Pope John Paul II

Does the Pope count? He sort of is a world leader.

I normally don't criticize the opinions of others in subjective matters such as this in a forum such as this, but Patrick, I find it somewhat disturbing that you would include Joseph Stalin and Mao Zedong on this list. Together they were responsible for the deaths of 50 million+ people and they ruled their countries with iron fists. Some people consider Stalin as more evil than Hitler. Have you included them on your list because you feel that they were sucessful as world leaders (an argument can be made for this because they did maintain the terrritorial integrity of their nations) or because you admire them and think that they were great men?

Wait, not so fast. :p You haven't heard yet why I put Lenin in the list. It's not what you think it is, though.
I don't feel like explaining now, but I'll do it tomorrow. Okay? [/b][/quote]Take your time. I'd like to read your reasons...

Good point hehe

Looking back at history and what history has taught us, it really makes me speechless why people still consider Lenin or the other "fathers of communism" great. Anyways, my intention is not to hijack this thread or change the subject or anything, Im just wondering...

Really? These people must be pretty uhm... misinformed about both.

The title of the thread is 'Top 10 20th/21st Century World Leaders,' not 'great men.'

Some of the arguments for Stalin being worse than Hitler are weak and some are strong. I didn't say Stalin was worse than Hitler or vice versa, I'm quite sure they're both burning in hell, so either way.

In terms of the total number of deaths caused by Hitler (those he was directly responsible for) and the total caused by Stalin, Stalin was the greater evil. Also, Stalin was directly responsible for the deaths of millions upon millions of his people, and some may argue that this is worse than what Hitler did. Again I'm not saying that I'm one of these people I'm just saying that an argument could be made.

However, Stalin did fight with the Alies against Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union did suffer the most losses in WWII and in terms of the total number of deaths caused by Hitler (whether directly or as a result of the war) and the total number caused by Stalin, Hitler was the greater evil. It's very touchy to make arguments either way because very many people today have families who were affected in one way or another by the two men and when emotions get involved, rational discourse usually gets thrown out the window. Regardless, I don't believe that Stalin should be on a list of the top 10 modern world leaders. If it were a list of the top 10 most influential, important or significant modern world leaders, it would be a different matter.

Patrick I understand your reasoning better now, but even so, many arguments against Stalin and Mao as leaders can be made. You have to ask yourself this question, did Stalin and Mao leave the Soviet Union and China in a better or worse state than the one in which they found it?

Numbers depend on those who count. Nothing is so easily faked as history.
We are not to decide who should burn in hell.
I'm not arguing at all, I'm too old for it... I just find it strange that someone can say "he was just evil". He might have done wrongs as it is, there's no necessity to accuse him of what he hasn't done. And there's nothing wrong with many good, even great deeds of his. Especially liberating the world from faschism. During his time many immigrants returned to the USSR, by the way. It was he, who stopped presecution of Christians and restored the Orthodox church to its proper place in the society. And it was he, who punished the Lenins bloody executioners who killed the Nation's elite almost entirely in 1920s. You are right to suggest that I'm personally partial - almost whole family of my grandmother was among them.
OK, let's not hijack the topic anymore.

Fair enough.

Here's the first reason.
Second will follow tomorrow.

What? No Fidel Castro? :p

As has been kind of suggested, to answer this question proprly one must know the criteria for being considered a "Top World Leader".

I can agree with Plawrence on this one.(don't get your hopes up there Plaw It's not going to be a regular occurence )


Pat-Bill Clinton

Really? These people must be pretty uhm... misinformed about both. [/b][/quote]They must be the same people who hold that Shoah never existed...

very well said, JM! Plus, Lenin was anything but an idiot. Aziatic, do you know what "idiot" commonly means? :p

very well said, JM! Plus, Lenin was anything but an idiot. Aziatic, do you know what "idiot" commonly means? :p [/b][/quote]Lav, I thought you would be on my side :p You can see it this way: He was intelligent in a negative way. But really, Stalin pretty much realized Lenins theories and ideology :rolleyes: I am an anticommunist but I have reasons to, hell I once refused to park in the Karl-Marx-Street here in our city :p

I'm on your side, Aziatic. As long as you are on mine, of course..... :p

wow, President Bush should award you an US honorary citizenship!!!

I'm not doing this to sound controversial but when leadership is ever brought up Hitler must be considered as one, if not, the greatest modern leaders of the world. Look at theorists and theories of leaders and leadership (of which I've seen plenty). They all go along the same lines as saying leadership is about influencing others to achieve goals. What Hitler did, to get the millions and millions of people behind him and to ACTUALLY believe in his cause, is something rare.

True leadership is also based on power and not authority. Don't confuse the two. Your boss tells you to do something you do it. That's authority, that's the chain of command. Don't get me wrong, Hitler used that as well but it was his true power over people and using something other than authority. It's the intigibles.

You are kidding about #8 right? I know its opinions but to put idiots like Lenin in the same list like Ghandi, Kennedy and Adenauer is an insult.

To quote Reagan:
How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin. [/b][/quote]Communism is IMO one of the best ideas ever. It starts from the idea "every human is equal like the other".
But, it can only exist with the goodwill of people, all people must have the same "every human is equal like the other"-idea.
In reality, communism doesn't work, for various reasons, but also because not all people have that goodwill I mentioned.

Now, Lenin was the first to actually make that beautyful idea of Marx reality. He tried, but of course it didn't work and the SU became a dictatorship, in which there was a very strong state (sort of an extreme socialism) instead of no state , which is the goal of real communism.

So Lenin unintentionally made us realize that real communism can never exist, en he also showed (together with Stalin) that when trying to make communism, you always end up in a dictatorship.

That's why I think he was one of the greatest world-leaders, and of course because of his noble goals.

I very much agree with Turi.