Does anyone really believe that there will ever be peace in the Middle East? Most scientists agree that civilization arose somewhere in this region, and it has been ravaged by wars ever since. I'm no historian, but I cannot think of any prolonged amount of time in history where there wasn't fighting going on in this part of the world.

If we succeed in setting up a stable Iraqi government, do you think it will still be stable 50 years from now with the support of the American government?

Personally, I don't claim to know whether or not it was a good idea to invade Iraq because I don't have the information those in our government do, and I would never assert I know how Iraqi citizens feel while sitting at my computer desk in cozy, old America. I think removing Saddam from power was more than likely a good thing, but on the same token, I highly doubt that Iraq will be a peaceful, democratic society in 50, 100, or 500 years as a result of his removal. I'm sure there will just be another Saddam to take his place. Unfortunately, dictators will never be put on the endangered species list in any of our lifetimes. There are 3 things you can count on in life: death, taxes, and war in the Middle East.

This thread goes hand in hand with the exit strategy thread, but I didn't want to hijack it. What was our motivation for invading Iraq? If it was to remove the WMD, then we have achieved that goal already. If our goal was to establish a democratic government and stay in Iraq until it can function peacefully on its own, then we are never coming home. Do we really think we can end millenia of fighting by simply removing one man? I guess time will tell. Until then, let the debate begin.

I believe there can be, but I cannot speculate whether there will be.

OK 2 points - stable iraqi government and support of American Govt.

Stable iraqi govt is not going to happen for another decade or so IMO (complete guess, maybe an uneducated one). With ANY govt (ofcourse other than osama being the president or something ) 50 years is a good time to expect some change there. Peace is tough, progress is definitely likely. If no country tinkers with Iraq for its vested interests, be it oil or strategic military installations or whatever, peace can be brought by the Iraqi govt holding negotiations with the terrorist groups. Groups like AlQueeda will not remain monolithic for long. There will be split in power and some moderate groups will emerge in another 15-20 years. A few of them will be ready to negotiate.
Support of american govt will be crucial for the next few years because of its extensive involvement in the country's politics by entering into war. When US leaves Iraq finally, it will make sure that whatever govt gets to power will remain aligned to its(US) policies. That way Iraq will be an autonomous extension of power of US. What US does with Iraq needs to be seen.

Due to the emotional involvement of those involved in the various conflicts in the region and the powerful force of deeply held religious beliefs among Middle Easterners be they Muslim, Christian, Jewish or of another faith I don't think that peace will take place even in my great grand childrens' lifetime (I'm in my early 20s) if ever. The huge number of conflicts in the region and its surrounding areas alone is likely to ensure a state of perpetual war or at the very least perpetual tension. There's the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, Gulf War II, the increasing violence in Lebanon, the Kurdish question (Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey), the world's unquenchable thirst for oil and all of its implications and the overall instability of nearly all the governments in the region chiefly Egypt, Iran and Saudi Arabia and these are just some of the issues that must be dealt with. And we must not forget that the war in Afghanistan, the Indian/Pakistani conflict over Kashmir, the Turkish/Greek conflict over Cyprus, the unrest in the Central Asian republics (Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, Kyrghyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan), the racial conflict in Sudan, the failed state status of Somalia, and the political unrest and the violence in Chechnya and the other Caucasian states of Russia are in immediate proximity to the Middle East. This just adds to the overall heat in this area of the world. Still I hope and pray for peace to take hold of the region and its surrounding areas in my lifetime although I am quite skeptical of it actually happening.

Some parts of this region is very rich in natural resources. Wars always were there because everyone wanted to have access to the natural resources, be it the basic material for construction, accessing to rivers, and right now to maintain a secure access to the oil. Middle East is not that different with Africa when it comes to genocide, or even with parts of Balkans, but what makes the Middle East interesting right now is well being of Israel and oil. Maybe when the oil finishes...

Totally off-topic but is it just me and my limited knowledge or all religions were started here in the Middle East?

My knowledge of religion may be even more limited than yours, but didn't Christianity arise mostly in Europe?

And then you have those Far Eastern religions, like Bhuddism, Taoism, etc.

Well, phonologically speaking, there is "eace" in the middle of "East". It's just all pieced out over there. Everyone wants at once a piece of others' peace. The peace pie, particuarly the middle of it, is tasty. But in wanting that peace, they invade it and cause war. And war is wrong.

Yours peacefully; or indeed piecefully,
Mick

Christ was born in the Middle East, but that's true that Christianity was westernized by Europeans. Moses, David, Abraham, Mohammad, Joseph, and apologies to those I don't remember their names, they were all in the Mid-East. Why Indians and Eskimos don't have any prophets? Or they do and I don't know? It seems that God has been very concerned about us. Seeing what's happening around here, I totally understand why.

From what I understand Islam originated in Saudi Arabia, Christianity and Judaisim originated in Palestine/Israel, Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism and Sikhism in India, Zoroastrianism and Bahaism in Iran and Taoism and Confucianism started in China/Japan. As the three great montheistic religions (Islam, Christianity, Judaism) have the most followers (close to 70% of the world) and they all originated in the Middle East (although further development and growth of the faiths did occur elsewhere) the Middle East is considered the birthplace of religion.

Any religion that considers itself the "only true religion" and damns everyone else is bullshit to me.

If I were religious, and I'm quite the opposite, I'd be a Zany Zen Buddhist for sure. Like Kerouac. He's the friggin' man and he's really got his priorites straight. Too bad the man enjoyed a stiff drink a little too often.

The Doc

Well said Doc. I agree. No real religion condems and damns another religion because they have different beliefs.

And there are some people on here who need to stop taking pot shots at other religions. There are a few members here who think that it is ok to make fun of Jesus, Buddah, etc. And that is just plain wrong. To me it shows ignorance and a lack of respect for the beliefs of others.


Don Cardi

Hmm

I think you can make fun out of everybody, and still respect that person. I make fun out of my friends everyday, and I deeply respect them.

I agree, Enzo.

Look at all the jokes that start off with "A Priest, a Rabbi, and a Nun were......"

Nothing is, or should be so sacred, IMO, that it can't or shouldn't be made fun if.

Of course, good taste and time & place should sometimes enter into it.

If my best friend's mother just died or something, I don't think it would be very respectful to start telling him jokes about her, or about death or dying.

But, in general, we make jokes about religion, and priests, and rabbis, and nuns, and people of different nationalities and races, and homosexuals, and prostitutes, and blondes, all the time.

Actually, come to think of it, isn't all, or at least most, humor at the expense of someone else?

To answer the question....No. Why? Too many radical beliefs converging in one place.

Bahaism is not a religion by itself, they are branch of Shiite Muslims who believe the savior promised to Shiites, which they believe is supposed to come with Jesus has come and died.

See, my point is, these three monotheistic religions you mentioned are recognizing the past ones. Bible has the Old Testament, so does Quran and it covers the stories around Christ with some changes to what Christians today believe. However it does not recognize Zoroastrianism, Buddhism, Hinduism or Taoism. This thought is just bothering me that if any of these religions meant to be any more special than the rest and if it is 100% words of God and anyone else is lost, then why not the same messages and rules for the rest of the world? Why their prophets -- if there were any and clues shows that they were not as organized in keeping the word of God as Mid-Easterns did -- didn't brought the same orders? Aren't men equal in the eyes of God? Isn't everyone supposed to be guided? I'd like to have a debate on this issue with believers, if they feel like thinking about these subjects.

DC, which religion doesn't say that the non-believers of that religion are not lost? That's the whole trick to how this works. That's why religions that came to the same region were recognizing the older ones, but they just would claim that they were some sort of upgrade.

I disagree. The only problem this region has is its rich resources. Religion is what has been used to start a conflict. When the UK was ending their occupations in some areas of the region they started potential conflicts between the different religions, hence dividing great India to two Islamic and Hindu states of Pakistan and India, originating the Jewish state of Israel and so on. Their motto was to start conflict and rule. Why rule on them? Because these people have oil and strategic areas to the resources they needed. Hopefully when the oil finishes the children of the Middle East would experience a brand new life full of hope and start some actual work instead of fighting and feeding on oil money.

good taste and time & place should ALWAYS enter into it, IMO!

As far as I know, most people believe that the key to peace in the Middle East lies in a solution for the Palestinian / Israeli conflict.

Many people tend to think that there has been war in Palestine (and / or Israel, whatever you want to call this area) for as long as there are people there. This is not true. What is true is that involvement from the West has triggered and continiousely fueled the conflict as Palestine used to be part of a British colony (like the US used to be) of which a part has been given to the Jewish people after WWII by the UN.

Israel has been at war with her neighbours for as long as they exist. This does not mean that I believe that they should not be there or don't have the right to defend themselves but a solution needs to be found.

The US has tried to mediate in this conflict many times and once came very close to help solving it but then Rabin got shot.

The war in Iraq has also been devastating for this process, creating millions of new USA / The West haters watching Al-Jazeera every day, sympathising with the Palestinian people.

Everyone knows that Israel only still exists thanks to the protection from the West, especially the US. Israel DOES have WMD's (about 300 nukes) supplied to them by the US of course, just as the WMD's Saddam used to have when he was still a US ally and trade partner.

One thing that bothers a lot of people is that the International community (which is divided over Iraq) does not measure with the same measuring-stick when it comes to UN-resolutions.

The invasion in Iraq has been "approved"" by the UN because Saddam violated a few resolutions but at the same time there is Israel that has violated more UN resolutions (eg: to stop building settlements in the Gaza strip) than any other country in the world.

I am not taking sides and I don't have a ready to go solution (otherwise I would win a Nobel Peace Prize) but I do know this is the problem that needs to be fixed.

The US has the key for they can impose their will on Israel but are reluctant to do so because of the large Jewish community (and campaign sponsors) in the US as well as a very large base of (pro-Bush) Christians not willing to listen to reason but only to the voice of their God whom I have never seen making a statement on CNN (all I saw was other people wether it be Bush, Saddam, The Pope, etc claiming to speak for THE God or at least THEIR God).

I wish he/she would one day but i'm afraid no one would listen...

I have no problem with jokes about religion. I think that perhaps both you and Plaw missed my original point.

I was not making any reference to the religious jokes that are made. That's all in good fun.

What I was referring to was the snide remarks that have been made about certain religious beliefs.

Joking is ok with me. Of course like Plaw said there is an appropriate time and an appropriate place for everything.

But to make snide remarks and put another person's religious beliefs down during a political debate, etc., is IMO ignorant and disrespectful.


Don Cardi

I disagree. The only problem this region has is its rich resources. [/b][/quote]Afs, I respect your opinion as a resident, but the ONLY problem is its rich resources?? What if I replaced "radical" with "disparate"? With the question being "will there ever be peace"....let's back up...has there ever been peace and why? What conditions existed for their to be peace. I profess my ignorance on Middle Eastern history, so I am curious. As a foreigner, my impressions are that religion is the root of the conflicts. You could change the resource and the problem would be the same, Yes? No?

MC,

Let's look at the bigger picture than the Middle East, has there ever been peace everywhere for a long time? World has experienced two world wars when Middle East was fairly at peace. That might be because those who were after exploiting other countries where at conflict themselves and didn't have much time to start another one around here. Religious conflicts in the Middle East started after the WWII following the foundation of Israel and not just based on religion, but because of a conflict over land. The previous habitants didn't like the separate and religious based foundation of states. But I guess, after WWII, it was easier to play religious discrimination cards than actually sit and solve the land conflicts. Now you watch TV and it is as if Religion is what has led to this situation.


Before this, the only wars that I can think of and has been fought because of religion were the occupation of Iran and other countries by Arabs after Islam, the Crusade in which Europe was the other side of the war and genocide of Christians led by Ottoman Empire. Other wars, which were many more, have been there to extend borders, take other's gold and resources, take slaves and so on.


I can look into my own country and see in late 15th century, when Ottoman Empire was attacking Iran and at the same time was pushing those of Christian faith out of country killing many of them, Shah Abbas who was also a Muslim, took the Christians who had come to the North Western borders of Iran to the Iranian Capital at that time, my home town, Esfahan. There are still great numbers of Christians living here in Esfahan. People of different faith have been living with each other without having to live in ghettoes and now when you watch or read media, you think no religion can get along with others and you just have to separate states based on their religion.


And you should know, I'm not saying that the radical religious leaders are not the problem right now, but the exploiters never stood up to these kind of leaders and actually tried to use the situation to maintain a conflict so that they can stay in the Middle East for ever. However when there was a constructive national movement in these countries so that they can get their act together, intelligent services were there to stop it. There are many failed national movements while religious movements were never stopped. Coincidence? I say no.


When Middle East has no resources left to get at such a cheap price, I can assure you, they'll leave us alone to solve our problems ourselves. Maybe then, people stop for a moment and think again, why we are fighting these wars by the arms that were sold to us at price of our resources. Then they might start thinking for well-being of their country and countrymen regardless of their race and religion. That can be long after we are gone, but I'm sure just like any other part of the world that has no resources and you never hear their names in the Media, the Middle East wouldn't make the headline of the news. We still might have religious conflicts, but why anyone should care? There is genocide in Africa, no politician cares.

Thanks Afs, that does shed a brighter light on the situation(s)and I appreciate you putting your thoughts into type.

Would you considering running for office or at least a seat on the UN??

You're welcome MC, any time!

No, I really need to finish my ice-cream first.

Of course, I completely agree with what you said.

For anyone who's interested you should check out the Washington Report On Middle East Affairs. This is in my opinion the best magazine for those who have a legitimate interest in seeing peace in the Middle East and South Asia. http://www.wrmea.com