“…it was Barzini all along,” says Vito to Hagen after the Dons’ convention. I don’t think Vito meant that literally. I think Barzini and the other Dons didn’t get involved in the Five Families War of 1946 until after Sollozzo was killed:
Sollozzo was a wholesaler: he owned opium poppy fields in Turkey, and had factories in Europe to convert his opium to morphine and heroin. To expand his business, he had to establish a retail operation in America. He needed the Tattaglias to create a street-level distribution and sales network, and the Corleones to protect his couriers. He had the Tattaglias’ support, and expected the Corleones to go along with his proposition. So, at the time of his meeting with the Corleones, Sollozzo had no need to buy the support of Barzini or the other Dons: it would have diluted his profits.
Vito’s refusal was a surprise setback for Sollozzo, but Sonny’s unfortunate and uncalled-for remark gave him hope that he might yet get the Corleones’ political and police protection—if the Don were out of the way. So Sollozzo went to Plan B: kill Vito and gamble that Sonny’s greed for drug profits would overcome Sonny’s thirst for vengeance for his father. Sollozzo still didn’t need to engage the other Dons: Sonny’s reputation as a hothead and loose cannon would put the other Dons on his and Tattaglia's side without their having to offer them anything. I think Sollozzo was telling Tom the literal truth when he said: “…the other Families will go along with anything that prevents an all-out war.” If he had made a deal with Barzini and/or the others, he would have told Hagen so to add force to his argument. He didn’t, because he hadn’t made a deal.
But the Don survived. Oh-oh! As long as he breathed, there’d be no deal on drugs. So Sollozzo went to Plan C: hire McCluskey to set up Vito for another hit attempt, which would resurrect Plan B. But then Michael and Enzo thwarted it.
At that point, Sollozzo either should have thrown in the towel, or have cut a deal with Barzini and the others to support him. I don’t think he did. Instead, he stupidly continued to bluff, setting up the meeting with Michael to buy more time for another attempt on Vito. He thought he was invulnerable with McCluskey sitting beside him. But then Michael played his trump card.
With Sollozzo dead and the Don well protected and recovering, Tattaglia was desperate. “Alone, he could never have outfought Santino.” So then—and only then, with his back against the wall--he appealed to (probably begged) Barzini to support him, and most likely pleaded with Cuneo and Stracci as well. No doubt he had to promise all of them a big piece of the drugs action to get them on his side. They probably dictated terms to Tattaglia. But they were motivated by the same force that started the whole war: greed. Barzini was greedy to supplant Vito Corleone as the top Don in America; the others were greedy for the same drug profits that had led Sonny to his unfortunate remark.
Moral of story: greed and stupidity go hand-in-hand with organized crime.

Hi!

Neither do I. What was meant by this remark, to my mind, was that the hidden spring behind the recent Corleones' misfortunes - Sollozzo being but one of them - was Barzini's secret drive to weaken and if possible eliminate the Corleones, and put himself naturally at the head of the "new order". So, he skillfully channeled the general discontent of the other families at the Corleones' supremacy towards his own ends.

When Sollozzo passed by, he was fetched aboard, either knowingly or not. Whether he was taking his orders from Barzini, or acting under his secret protection, or freelancing upon some understanding with one of Barzini's allies, or just wildly shooting from the bush, is not so important.

Without somebody very powerful at least allowing him to proceed, he'd never be able to do anything against the status quo - it was nearly 1946, and nobody wished a prolonged bloody war, after all.

And only too late did Don Vito deduce that this powerful man was Barzini all along.

Best regards.

Alexander

Most people seem to associate Sonny's remark as being greedy> Was it greed or was it "good business"

One thing always confounded me, and this is where I think Vito felt it was "Barzini all along".

At the big meeting, Barzini seemed to be very vindictive to Vito in his comments- that his refusal was not the act of a freind, that he must share everything etc. Vito probably thought that Tattaglia was not intelligent enough to pull off such a deal, and that is why he felt it was Don Barzini.

BTW, both of your comments/opinions/observations are very interesting reading

I have been more apt to think that Barzini had at least some hand all along, albeit slight. I don't see Barzini sitting in the sidelines while the Pimp takes over the drug trade for himself.

Wouldn't Sollozzo and Tattaglia seek some prior "permission" or backing from the commission of Dons before a major hit? Otherwise, Sollazzo/Tattaglia would risk the other families' joining with the Corleones in a war. At the time of the hit, Corleone's was still quite powerful.

Because Vito was against drugs, he stood in everyone else's way. It was therefore in the interests of the other Don's for someone to get rid of Vito. But they were afraid to hit Vito themselves.

Perhaps Barzini knew about the hit but didn't ask for much in return for backing the plan. Barzini was in a no lose situation - let Sollazzo/Tattaglia risk their necks while he stays secretly in the background. If Sollazzo wins, then Barzini arrainges a meeting in Brooklyn with Sollazzo/Tattaglia. Barzini kills 'em all and takes over the spoils. If Sollazzo loses then "innocent" Barzini denounces Sollazzo, befriends Corleones and seeks another plan to hit the Corleones and profit from drugs.

I always took Vito's statment "it was Barzini all along" as Barzini being the brains behind the attempted coup in a larger sense and possibly as you say that he came into the picture after the failed attempt on Vito's life. Barzini saw an opportunity opening up and with Sollozzo appearing more desparate to salvage his botched job and the drug deal, Barzini saw an opening with the Corleones in a weakened state.

How about this scenario. Turk has contacts with Tattaglia, and when he comes over they offer him potection, for a share of profits. Not political protection but protection from other thugs who may try to shake him down. Now the Turk has a plan to get the drugs business started, and he needs Don Vito's $$ and political contacts. The Turk being a smart man could have figured his chances are 50/50. If Vito says yes, it is all OK. But if Vito says no what then? Of course Sonny opens the door for Vito's attempted killing with his remark. Turk gets an idea, and goes to Tattaglia. Tattaglia did not strike me as someone who was able to make the kind of moves that were needed. Turk and Tattaglia go to Barzini with their plan. Barzini promises no interference from the families, and gives his tacit approval of the hit on Vito for two reasons. Drug profits, and increased power with Vito out of the way. By agrreing to do nothing he set Vito up. the rest follows the story, Vito lives and Sonny starts a war instead of making a deal. Barzini figures to end the war by hitting Sonny.

I'd have to go along with the "Barzini all along" crowd. I get the feeling that the Tats and Corls were the NY answer to the Hatfields and McCoys for some reason that, perhaps, GF IV might shed light on. Barzini was one shrewd devil of a hood, and I wouldn't put it past him to have tried to stake his claim for what Vito had (true power and political clout) by exploiting this familial rivalry. I'm going by several points we already know:

1) Sonny was not just surprised but scoffingly skeptical of the notion that the Tattaglias would guarantee a Corleone investment.

2) Barzini was behind the hit on Sonny (according to Carlo), Appollonia (based on his subsequent sponsorship of Fabrizio to this country).

3) Tattaglia could never have gotten as close to cause damage as Barzini. First off, it appears from the opening that Vito and Emilio are old friends if not business associates. I didn't see Phillip or Bruno at the wedding (which may not mean anything). Vito relies on Barzini to help call the meeting of the Five Families to smoke the peacepipe. Vito later "keep(s) goin over this Barzini business because he realizes that he trusted the wrong man and feels totally stung.

4) When Tessio goes to the other side, he doesn't defect to Tats but to Shemp's handsome brother

5) Clemenza gotta hate that goddamn Barzini for SOME reason.

It was Barzini from the onset. AS Don Vito said to Tom " The tattaglias could have never outfought Santino." My interpratation is that Sollozo went to the Tattaglias with his idea. The Tattaglias loved it, but realized that Vito Corleone may not go for a piece of a drug deal. So to set everything in place before the meet between Sollozo and Vito, the Tattaglias went to Barzini with Sollozo's deal, and sought the protection and backing of Barzini in case Vito turned down the deal ( support with his political connections ) which he did, and a war had to break out, hence if it was the Corleone's and The Tattaglia's, the Corleone's would have destroyed the Tattaglia's in a one on one war. Barzini was the muscle and brains behind the Tattaglia's war with the Corleone's, but under the condition that Barzini stay "behind' the scenes throughout the war. Don Vito read right into this at the commission meeting because instead of Barzini acting as the mediator who was not taking sides, Barzini immedeatly went to the defense of Tattaglia and chastised the Corleone's. In essence, if Barzini was NOT behind the Tattaglia's and in it for the money, he would have chastised the Tattaglia's for starting the war by putting a hit on both the head ( Vito ) of a family and a commision seat ( Vito ) holder!
Hence, " It was Barzini all along."

I have to believe that Barzini was in it from the beginning. First of all, he was the 2nd most powerful Don in NY (therefore, in the US) and it was obvious that he had his eye on the No. 1 spot. His tentacles of power reached everywhere and into everything. I can't imagine that whiny Tattaglia would've had the guts to go up against the Corleones without Barzini whispering encouragement and promises in his ear.

Hi!

This may indicate that the proud Corleones were not going to rely on any guarantee of the "pimp" Tattaglias, and nothing more.

We learn this very late in the movie. And the hits themselves took place when the all out war was raging in the streets, so there's no wonder that Barzini got involved into it as well by then.

I think that one of Vito's strength was not trusting anybody at all. He goes over this important business just to make sure nothing is left to the uncertainty of luck.

Again, this happens very late, when it's clear as day that Barzini is close to becoming the next biggest shot.

They probably operated some rackets at close quarters: neighbors are never loved.

I hope that you understand that I'm not against the "Barzini all along" version. But we're talking about the degree of his involvement, which is a relatively subtle matter, so I just think that we should be very careful about the arguments.

Best regards.

Alexander

Something somebody said earlier kind of puts this all in perspective. When they're at the enclave, Barzini said that Corleone's refusal to use his influence to help Solozzo "was not the act of a friend." This signals to me, at least, that Barzini had managed to cut in on the action right from the get-go.

However, I also think that, like any head of any multi-faceted business organization, Barzini took a "do what you have to do" approach to Solozzo until such time as it became necessary to intervene directly. But I cannot think he'd have made that comment at the enclave unless he had a personal interest from the start.

"Barzini all along." I really took it as though Barzini encouraged and secretly supported Sollozzo's attempt on Vito's life. And has been the mastermind of the 5 Family war. I also believe that the other 2 New York Dons came to into the battlefield because their operations were being cracked down upon by the NYPD. I'm sure they were losing lots of money and they blamed the Corleones for it, which is why they oppose dthem.

Hi!

It's a good point. However, this doesn't necessarily imply direct involvement. He might've just created an atmosphere in which the lesser players felt encouraged to assault the Corleones in their own ways.

The drugs business was particularly poignant because it was putting the Corleones into a lose-lose situation: take part in it, and you lose your connections; reject it, and you put yourself against what they call progress.

Now, the question really is whether Barzini 1) figured this out by himself and actively promoted "creation" of Sollozzo, or 2) allowed Sollozzo to "create himself", knowing in advance how nice an issue this would eventually become, or 3) just permitted anything possible to proceed in a generally anti-Corleone way and snatched his opportunity as it presented itself.

My opinion is hovering somewhere between items 2 and 3.

Best regards.

Alexander

I just want to thank everyone for their intelligent and thoughtful responses to this post. Definitely high-quality input! I believe everyone was right in his/own way.

It's threads like this that show that this BB isn't going down after all. Nobody was going to post a reply to this thread without not having some decent knowledge of the movie (until this post ). I find it very interesting to read threads like this with fair discussions from such knowledgable experts. I would be the first to admit that I am sadly not as sexpert-ish as you guys--yet! But after my recent purchase of the DVD collection, I hope to watch it ove rand over again so I can join in such discussions without talking gibberish (like I am now! ) DVD's make a movie all the more watchable and enjoyable with so many extras. When you own the DVD Collection of this Trilogy, I now realise how easy it is to become an expert if you want to be!

Sorry for the hijack,

Mick

Turnbull, i was thinking about this last night and I think you are right, Barzini only got involved after the Five family war.

Here are my reasons. When Barzini wanted Mike out of the way, he did what was considered the smart thing. He first picked someone to lead the group after Mike was killed, someone to betray Mike and who would owe Barzini for elevating him to a new position. Tessio. After that he set up a meeting, ironically like Mikes meeting with Sollozzo. Lure him in, make him feel safe, and kill him. He gets rid of an adversary and replaces him with a ally.

The hit on Vito was street style, no muss no fuss. But I think that Sollozzo miscalculated Sonnys greed vs his temper/lust for revenge.

Had Barzini been involved I think he would have tried to approach someone (Tessio?) to lobby for drugs within the family. Turk tells Tom to talk to Sonny, and the other kids, and the two capos. The only one who argues for the deal is Tom. Had a respected capo argued for the deal, it would have carried more weight. I realize that Tessio was considred loyal to Vito, but Barzini would have tried to apporach someone within the family.

The two actions differ in their sofistication, and lead me to believe that Barzini was not involved before the war, at least in any planning of action, until he engineered Sonny's murder.

Turk tried to bully his way, with the backing of the Tattaglias, and he realized that Vito's refusal carried alot of weight in the world of the mafia, because of his statue among his assocaites. Barzini benefited from Vito's hit. and would have benefitted from his death, but I feel he was not involved in it.

Turnbull, with great respect for your profound insights all over these boards, I must disagree with your analysis.

The key to Vito Corleone's quote about how Tattaglia could never have outfought Santino is its predicate..."Tattaglia's a pimp." In other words, Tattaglia's primary interests were in prostitution. I think Barzini was in on the idea of getting into the drug trade, but that he was perfectly content to let everyone think the Turk was working under Barzini, and not him and possibly Cuneo also. Further, Barzini would never have been given the go ahead to hit Don Corleone on Barzini's word standing alone. Sollozo was allowed to hit the Don only after it got cleared by enough other muscle in the comission to ensure that the Corleones would lose the inevitable war that would ensue. Solozzo himself said he believed the Don was "slippin'" and says in a bemused way "could I have got to him five years ago?" The answer is of course not, but he could at the point he did because he had clearance from the others in the five famiiles. It is also important to look at the little FFC foreshadowing at the beginning of the movie. Which family head do we see getting his picture taken, having one of his goons snatch and bring him the camera so that he can tear up the film? Barzini -- who by the way looks none too thrilled to be attending Connie's wedding in the first place. And it is Barzini who takes over the negotiations at the meeting of all the Dons from all over the country, and at that meeting, Tattaglia asks Barzini specifically, what happens when the Corleones regain their strength and maybe act out on a Vendetta....No.... it WAS Barzini all along!

Anyway "All along" line was created by Coppola, in the novel Vito said "It is enough to know that Barzini had a hand in it." And I believe that by "it" he meant the hit on Sonny, on the first place, at least.