http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20050615/ts_usatoday/voteonflagdesecrationmaybecliffhanger

My vote is I do NOT support such a Constitutional Amendment. While I think that it is a total lack of respect for the flag and for what it stands for, it is still protected rightly as a "Freedom of Speech" by the Supreme Court.

The question today is, do YOU support a Constitutional Amendment to "ban" the burning or "discecration" of the American flag?

Constitutional Flag Burning Amendment single choice
	Yes
	No
Votes accepted starting: 12/31/69 08:00 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

I don't support a Constitutional Amendment to ban it. Our flag represents freedom.

I just think anyone who burns our flag is an ungrateful and misguided jack@ss. I'll personally purchase them a one way ticket to the third world country of their choice. It's not the actual cloth, just the meaning that's important to me and to not recognize the fact that while our country does make mistakes, it is an incredible country full of freedom, is stupidity in my eyes.

Apparently I'm the only one who supports such a Constituitional Amendment. My reasoning for it is: there should be nothing holier to any American than his national flag. Desecrating it, and pissing down the throats of war veterans and those who have died to uphold this nation will not change any conditions, despite what misguided college kids, unpatriotic, self-hating, or degenerate scum may think.

Someone who wishes to burn the national flag should commit suicide, because they are among the most vile beings in the world, and such individuals should be dealt with nothing BUT intolerance from the government. The list of reasons for this is too long for me to type right now, but if any of you are curious as to my reasoning I can enlighten you.

I strongly oppose any effort to limit any form of free expression no matter how offensive it might be. From a philosophical standpoint the flag is merely an icon, and it is not sacred. What it stands for is sacred, and that includes the freedom to burn it.

As a practical matter, such an amendment cannot be enforced anyway. For instance, the proper protocol for worn out flags is to burn them. Accordingly, If I have an old flag lying around I would be desecrating it by throwing it in the trash. In order to enforce this amendment, you would necessarily have to know what my intention was when I burned the flag. Thus, if I burned it in my front yard say next to a sign saying "I support the war in Iraq" one might suppose I am honoring the flag. If on the other hand I did the same thing next to a sign saying "Bring the Troops Home" someone might think I am burning the flag in protest.

Further, There are all kinds of uses of the flag which any of us may consider offensive. For instance I find it offensive that people have cashed in on the 9/11 tragedy by trotting out American Flags for pure commercial purposes. Is this desecration? What about American flag boxer shorts? American flags on cigarette lighters?

Most people who have American flag lapel pins put it on their left lapel, when the correct protocol, I believe is that it is to be worn on the right.

Then there is all the business of whether or not it should fly at night with the proper lighting. If I have my flag out on July 3, and I forget to turn the porch light on that night, do I get arrested on July 4 because I dishonored the flag?

My time here is limited, so I'll attempt to reply with that in mind:

dontomasso - your reasoning is contradictory, at best. If you do truly believe the American flag stands for freedom, burning it would symbolize a burning of freedom, anyway. Icons are symbols, because there is no way to definitely attack an abstract concept such as freedom.

It must also be considered in this discussion what the American flag symbolizes to different peoples. In the Middle East it symbolizes degeneracy in the form of materialistic capitalism and brutalizing pro-Israeli terrorism, which by themselves can be viewed as mortal enemies of the Muslim World, which are capable of perverting, if not destroying what it collectively stands for. So, for a Muslim, extremist or not, the burning of the American flag symbolizes a healthy manifestation of his survival instinct, that of his faith and way of life, if not an outward sign that he is willing to fight against its destruction - which most are; by the way. American involvement in the Middle East is not in keeping with popular opinion, in other words, it does not represent the will of most Americans, so objectively an attack on the American flag in the Middle East is not an attack on what the Star-Spangled Banner was really created to represent (that which it no longer represents today).

On the other hand, the burning of the American flag by any of the motley groups who are considered Americans by Federal Law is the symbolic outward protest of persons belonging to said groups, or perhaps of entire groups. Such a brazen form of protest against the State cannot be tolerated by a State that wishes to preserve itself, and I am not only for the preservation of the American States but also for a purging of it and a return it to its previous healthy condition.

Allow me to illustrate to you with personal allegory what the burning of the flag might illustrate to those faithful in the state:

A soldier is away fighting and risking his life for what he believes - which many of my personal high school friends are - whether he is misguided or not is irrelevant; he is fighting the benefit of the State, his country, and the way of life he wishes to defend (such an effort is commendable and should forever be respected). The unpunished burning of the flag sends the following message to the family of such a soldier:

"The immeasurable vital sacrifices of your sons and daughters will not be protected and are therefore in vain, since The United States will make no effort to protect their sacrifices or honor them in the mainland."

However to the outward mass who might have no idea of what the protestors' true intention is, such an act is nothing but a truly direct act of protest against not only the American state, but also against what it represents - its people, and on those grounds alone I support the Constituitonal Amendment under discussion.

Well said, GP (Where've you been??). I agree 1,000%. If one is to that point in his so-called "freedom," then, as far as I'm concerned, he's also "free" to get the hell out of the U.S.A. and go whine somewhere else (preferrably a Third World, barbaric, dictator-governed country).

Que…Hey Guineapig I’m afraid I’m going to have to go the other way and agree with the others.
The Flag is a symbol of freedom, and burning it doesn’t mean your “burning freedom”. The reason the soldiers go overseas and fight is so that we back home can have freedom, all of us. If we want to go traipsing around the world condemning “iron fist regimes” than what would it do to honor the soldiers we lose by becoming one ourselves. Yes we have the right to burn the flag as protest and no probably not many countries would take that kind of protest but that is “our freedom” that we so delightfully talk at length about.
What is it with people and constitutional bans these days? They seem to want to institute some form of “state authorized” lifestyle. Look at what your saying, if you start banning everything that you don’t think is American than the idea of America is lost and the terrorists win. (yeah the last part was a bit dramatic)

No, the terrorists "win" when we destroy ourselves from the inside. And that starts with contempt for one's own country...as a matter of fact, so does anarchy, bloody revolution, etc. And history has taught us that such events are all usually precursors to that "state-authorized" lifestyle you proclaim to dread.

I couldn't agree with what the 2 of you said (especially this paragraph suspect_5). That's why I voted NO on the Amendment

Hey there, you dirty Southern Irishman! Let's just say that the broads have had their way with me and now I am seriously considering enrollment in the Marines or Army, with nothing to live for. Nice avatar, too, by the way.

Hello, Suspect_5;

The Star-Spangled banner symbolically represents this country, its federal institutions, its veteran clubs, its children, the elderly citizens you see before you; their sacrifices, and the way of life all those things have respectively attempted to protect, prolong, or promulgate. Those who believe it simply stands for 'freedom' have a limited, and probably unrealistic view of the world, for believing that such a valuable - if not the most valuable thing in all of human life - can come at no cost at all. Freedom and responsibility are inseperable; thus the very prerequisite for the maintanence of freedom (which is very hardly won), is that one is willing to fight to preserve it. By burning the national flag, you are smearing with your irresponsibility and disrespect all every single American has ever done to preserve America as it was meant to be. By burning it, keep in mind what such an action means, and then standing behind the 'freedom' you have to burn it, you are a forked tongued snake, and a poisonous parasite to the country that has given you your freedom.

Guineapig

Southern!? Oh you dirty motherf*cker!

Southern!? Oh you dirty motherf*cker! [/b][/quote]Actually, my facetious reply was directed at Snake answering his question about where I'd been, and not you.

I whole heartedly support an ammendment that BANS the burning or desicration of The American Flag! Burning the American flag is NOT freedom of expression. Burning the American Flag is a slap in the face to all those men and woman who died defending and fighting for the right to diplay The American Flag. It is a slap in the face to our country!

Yes, many will say that it is just a piece of cloth, and therefore burning it does not mean that you are burning freedom. BULLSHIT. If that be the case then what other reason would one burn the American Flag for? If one believes that by burning the American Flag that they are not doing so to disrepect our country or the flag's symbolism, because it is only a piece of cloth, then why don't they just burn a shirt, a towel, or a plain old piece of cloth? Because the real intention is to demoralize the symbolic nature of the Flag, that's why. No other reason whatsoever.

If you believe in The Pledge Of Allegiance, then you must be against ANY form of desicration of The American Flag.
Heck,, if you believe in our country and what it stands for then you must also be against form of desicration of The American Flag.

Tell me something, for what other reason, than dishonoring the memory of those who died fighting for the right to fly that flag, or dihonoring our country would one want to burn the American Flag?

Don Cardi

Southern!? Oh you dirty motherf*cker! [/b][/quote]Actually, my facetious reply was directed at Snake answering his question about where I'd been, and not you. [/b][/quote]Oh ok then. You said Irishman and naturally I thought you meant me

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Guineapig:
[QB] My time here is limited, so I'll attempt to reply with that in mind:

dontomasso - your reasoning is contradictory, at best. If you do truly believe the American flag stand for freedom, burning it would symbolize a burning of freedom, anyway. Icons are symbols, because there is no way to physically attack an abstract concept such as freedom.


My point is the flag is a symbol. To me it represents freedom, which cannot be burned. It may represent something entirely different to a member of Al Qaeda or whatever. My point is that once you go down the road of banning expression, it is a slippery slope and is actually more destructive of freedom than is the act of some idiot burning the American flag.

As for the pledge of Allegiannce, I personally think it is hogwash. I have no allegiance to "the flag." The first flag to which I pledged "allegiance" had 48 stars. Then it had 49, and now it has 50. Have I changed allegiances? No we just changed flags!

If our free cpountry is so fragile that our freedom is at stake because some one wants to burn a flag in protest, then it is not worth saving.

The flag's status as a symbol was never under discussion, it is in its very symbollism that the discussion lies. Freedom is an abstract, therefore it cannot be destroyed; it is an idea, not something one can touch - so it cannot be physically attacked. However, its symbols can.

It is in that frame of mind that we disagree strongly, and in that statement's core, the root of our disagreements. I personally believe that it is always worth fighting until my death for what I believe and love, the United States of America being one of those things; furthermore it is always worth saving America, in my own personal opinion.

Have a good afternoon.

Where have you been Guineapig?? How's it going?

WOW! You really surprise me! The other day you basically called Don Smitty a Nazi! And now you have the nerve to make statements like this? The Pledge Of Allegiance is Hogwash. Nice! Because of what that Flag symbolizes, you have the courage to speak these words. If others had not died for the rights that have been afforded us, the symbols of freedom, then you would not have the right to say these words! The right that has been afforded to you under The Flag that you so much disregard! You claim to be a "real" american because you scream for civil rights, fair treatment, civil liberties, etc. And then you go and make statements that if our country is so fragile that if someone wants to burn a flag in protest than maybe our freedoms are not worth saving ! That is a contradiction. If our freedoms are not worth saving, then the civil rights and civil liberties that you so strongly believe in and stand up for go down the drain as well!


Don Cardi

i definatly agree that banning such a thing is taking away freedom of speech. i think americans are the only ones in the world who put such an emphasis on a flag! while we respect our flag...in canada we feel that there are other things that are more important to us, and represent freedom. for example...your national anthem. that should be worth more then a flag...because everday that you sing it, you personalize it and make it your own. it's a part of you, it comes from in you. call me a crazy canuck...but freedom of speech is the way to go.

p.s. i hope my american friends aren't offended with what i've written.

WOW! You really surprise me! The other day you basically called Don Smitty a Nazi! And now you have the nerve to make statements like this? The Pledge Of Allegiance is Hogwash. Nice! Because of what that Flag symbolizes, you have the courage to speak these words. If others had not died for the rights that have been afforded us, the symbols of freedom, then you would not have the right to say these words! The right that has been afforded to you under The Flag that you so much disregard! You claim to be a "real" american because you scream for civil rights, fair treatment, civil liberties, etc. And then you go and make statements that if our country is so fragile that if someone wants to burn a flag in protest than maybe our freedoms are not worth saving ! That is a contradiction. If our freedoms are not worth saving, then the civil rights and civil liberties that you so strongly believe in and stand up for go down the drain as well!


Don Cardi [/QB][/QUOTE]


Don Cardi, Don Cardi.....why do you show me such disrespect?
You attack me for making an ad hominem shot at Don Smitty, and now you make an ad hominem attack against me?

The rights I have in this country were not afforded to me by a flag. They were and are afforded to me (and to you)
by the Constitution of the United States, and the amendments to the constitution, as well as the interpretations of the constitution by the courts (thats right the courts...don't spaz out here, they are a co equal branch of government), the executive and the legislative branches. These rights have also been protected by the blood of people who died in many (not all) of the wars that have been fought.

Interestingly two of those wars were against enemies who worshipped THEIR flags. Those enemiew would be the Confederacy and the Nazis (speaking of the devil)

WOW! You really surprise me! The other day you basically called Don Smitty a Nazi! And now you have the nerve to make statements like this? The Pledge Of Allegiance is Hogwash. Nice! Because of what that Flag symbolizes, you have the courage to speak these words. If others had not died for the rights that have been afforded us, the symbols of freedom, then you would not have the right to say these words! The right that has been afforded to you under The Flag that you so much disregard! You claim to be a "real" american because you scream for civil rights, fair treatment, civil liberties, etc. And then you go and make statements that if our country is so fragile that if someone wants to burn a flag in protest than maybe our freedoms are not worth saving ! That is a contradiction. If our freedoms are not worth saving, then the civil rights and civil liberties that you so strongly believe in and stand up for go down the drain as well!


Don Cardi [/QB][/quote]Don Cardi, Don Cardi.....why do you show me such disrespect?
You attack me for making an ad hominem shot at Don Smitty, and now you make an ad hominem attack against me?

The rights I have in this country were not afforded to me by a flag. They were and are afforded to me (and to you)
by the Constitution of the United States, and the amendments to the constitution, as well as the interpretations of the constitution by the courts (thats right the courts...don't spaz out here, they are a co equal branch of government), the executive and the legislative branches. These rights have also been protected by the blood of people who died in many (not all) of the wars that have been fought.

Interestingly two of those wars were against enemies who worshipped THEIR flags. Those enemiew would be the Confederacy and the Nazis (speaking of the devil) [/QB][/QUOTE]

If that other thread didn't, this sure did.

Snake, Penelope is more my speed; but I would really choose the blond in your avatar than 5 of each of those two together.

While I believe that flag burning is generally in poor taste and of questionable utility, the reality is that the flag represents a country that gives you the freedom of political expression. Prevent someone from doing so through legislation and you may as well be using his lighter to torch the Bill of Rights. To protect the flag from flag burners is to protect a symbol by destroying the very thing for which that symbol stands.

Americans who fought and died in national conflicts did so for those freedoms of speech, not a piece of cloth. Refusing to honor those freedoms does a greater disservice to the memory of their sacrifice than burning a piece of cloth.

(Besides, our flag, the symbol of enduring freedom, was probably made by overworked children in Communist China. )

I must disagree with your quote DT. I feel the Flag is a sacred item. Tell the mothers and wifes of those soliders killed in war when they recieve the flag from their husbands or sons coffins that it is not sacred. I'am not trying to start a fight but I do not understand how anyone can burn Old Glory

DS

Hello, Saladbar;

Have you ever spoken with a soldier on the issue? I am not making any assumptions, but the holiest thing to him is the flag he defends, and what it represents. Freedom does not magically come about, it must be won and constantly defended; those who defend it do not wish to have its symbol desecretated - assuming that is all the stands for, or that they believed it stood for. And your argument is also symbolic here, as the protection of the symbol is the protection of the sacrifices of those who fought to protect the symbol, what they thought of the symbol, and what it represents today.

To me, there is simply something very poisonous and vile in burning the symbol of the country which has granted you your freedom and then cowardly using the national freedom the symbol represents to justify your actions. It is the equivalent to spitting in your host's plate after you are done eating from it. Such behavior is unjustified, even if you do not like the food, if you do such a thing, naturally you should not be fed by such a host unless he is incredibly stupid or filled with complexes.

My stepbrother is a soldier (Navy Desert Storm GW I) and thinks differently. Not that that means anything, I am sure there are many differing opinions among soldiers.

Don T. - I did not attack you. I merely replied to something that you said, which I feel is in complete contradiction to what you posted about DS. Remember this post :
You call yourself a "freedom fighter?" Why dont you go live in China, or better yet, Nazi Germany. [/QB][/QUOTE]

How is it that you can tell someone to go live in Nazi Germany because they have expressed there feelings about an issue regarding terrorists, and in doing so excersized their freedom of expression, a civil right that you now say should be respected in regards to allowing someone to burn a flag? Do the civil rights that you so often quote only apply to what you deem applicable?
Someone says that they think a guilty terrorist should be shot, and you tell them that their way of thinking belongs in Nazi Germany. Then someone talks about burning the AMERICAN flag, and you say that there is nothing wrong with burning an American flag! So it's wrong for someone to feel that a murdering terrorist should be executed, but it's ok for someone to burn an American flag. :rolleyes: I would expect some consistancy from you in that you would defend both people here as according to what you believe, both people have the right to excersize their freedom of expression!
And please, don't take what I wrote as an attack on you. I did NOT attack you. I did not call you any names or belittle you. I only pointed out something that YOU said in another topic in comparison to what you posted here. I was confused as to how you would defend the feelings of someone on one issue and attack the feelings of someone on another. BOTH come down to one's freedom of expression.

Oh and by the way, that flag represents the memory of those who wrote the constitution, the laws of the land and the soldiers who died protecting the constitution. So basically you are saying that you have absolutey no regard for the symbol that represents our country, it's people and it's constitution. And please don't get your panties all scrunched up here. this is a discussion, not an attack, a discussion!


Don Cardi

I thought you'd like her, GP. You know, I'm tempted to agree except I dig brunettes!

Okay, back to the hot potato. Someone who can speak so flippantly about burning a flag has perhaps never embraced it fully to begin with. No, I don't mean that they're totally unpatriotic, but rather, they haven't come to the point where they've truly fallen in love with our country. I believe that it's because we all tend to take so much for granted in this fast-paced, cellular, microwave society. I still recall the deep feeling of oneness that I sensed we all felt on 9-11-01 (perhaps I was wrong?), and how proud I was that day to be an American. But I predicted -- and, unfortunately, was correct -- that even that day would soon be forgotten, or at least, how we all felt as Americans.

Even that aside, I still proudly clutch the flag that was draped over my late father's coffin. He was a WWII vet. Although he didn't die in action, I still remember how his military funeral with all the rituals gave me goosebumps. And I still recall looking at that flag draped on his coffin and thinking how much he would have loved that gesture. You want to burn such a symbol of honor that countless, selfless soldiers have died -- and are still dying -- for? "No, but others should have the freedom to, if they want to." That's like saying, "Personally, I wouldn't shoot a cop, but it's okay if someone else does it." You'll say that's a bad analogy, but I say it's accurate, because as far as I'm concerned, trashing the flag is nothing short of criminal.

And hey, if it's not, then why stop there with this sort of "freedom of speech"? Why not flush copies of the Koran down the toliet (as Newsweek erroneously reported about our soldiers)? But, no, that outraged the liberals. (They want it both ways, you see.) Why not walk into churches and urinate on crosses? Why not defecate on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier, or Kennedy's grave? Why not? It's the same thing, isn't it??