may contain SPOILERS anywhere

as Quentin Tarantino himself said, there is a whole "universe" behind the Kill Bill movies. I thought it would be interesting for the fans of the saga to have a thread where we could say whatever we think about the story, the carachters and especially their backgrounds, since there is a lot of chit-chat about that. well, here are my first two cents:

Pai Mei-the idea that I got from Vol. 2 was that Pai Mei is some kind of a master in the violent universe where the Kill Bill carachters live. Bill talks about him as a man of "infinite power contemplates" when he tells Beatrix the story of Pai Mei and the Shaolin monk. also, it is easy to notice that Pai Mei is known to be absolutely intransigent with the (few) people around him, and still it is a honor for a "warrior" to be accepted by him for a period of training. (even after Bill says "Whatever - WHAT-EVER - Pai Mei says, obey. If you flash him, even for an instant, a defiant eye, he'll pluck it out", Beatrix still asks Bill "Why did he accept me?". to me, it says that Pai Mei accepts only few people, and the ones who he does accept feel flattered for that). and more: when Elle Driver tells Beatrix that she killed Pai Mei, is easy to see the frightened look on Beatrix's face. well, long-story-short, it seems to me that Pai Mei is to the bloody universe of Beatrix, Bill and the others, the same that Michael Jordan is to the universe of basketball - a Master.

Bill-Bill seems to me like a warrior almost as great as Pai Mei, but not as famous as the "old miserable fool". he looks like one of the best at what he does, but some kind of an underrated gem. a man respected by the masters, but who doesn't care to go out claiming to be "the man". as it is easily noticed, he has a close connection with Pai Mei, and is at least respected by Hattori Hanzo, beyond being the leader of such a crew as the "Deadly Vipers". all that apart from being himself the man behind the title of the saga.

The cruel trutelage of Pai Mei-of all the experiences Beatrix went through, Tarantino chose to tell in details her trutelage under Pai Mei. that did not happen by chance, in my opinion. as I said, I believe Pai Mei to be a master in that so called "universe", and I believe his trutelage is a masterpoint in the plot. Beatrix was obviously a special pupil of Pai Mei (Bill says Pai Mei "teaches no one the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique", but he did teach Beatrix that), and because of that I think she became a superior warrior to all the enemies she attacked.

well I'm done by now. you all feel free to add ANYTHING you have in mind.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. Hattori Hanzo was more of a sword fighter type teacher (teaching someone how to be skillful with a blade), while Pai Mai is more of a "martial arts" teacher in that he teaches his students how to build strength and how to fight without weapons. Being trained by both I think it's easy to understand just how great of a warrior Bill has become. I'm guessing Bill was Hanzo's student and Hanzo took him to Pai Mai for additional training, much like Beatrix was Bill's student and Bill took her to Pai Mai for additional training. We know most of the history/training behind the characters of Bill and Beatrix but I'm curious about the Deadly Vipor Assassignation Squad myself and their training. To my knowledge, we only know that Elle was trained by Pai Mai and Vernita was a student of Bill's I believe. Nothing much more than that for those 2 and I don't believe hearing anything about Budd or O-Ren's training.

Is this a case of fans (of whom there are undoubtedly many) wanting their own Tarantino-equivalent to, say, Tolkein's world?

When Tarantino made this, do you think he was looking into every little deep nook and cranny to find analysable narrative depth? In finding such depth in this film, are we finding things the artist (ie. Tarantino) did not intend?

Perhaps, but it's a world Tarantino's paying homage to. It isn't by any means his own. Kill Bill was spawned by old Asian B Movies, just like Jackie Brown (1997) was a revitalised Blaxploitation flick.

I'd go into how Reservoir Dogs (1991) is merely a remake just like Kill Bill, or how Pulp Fiction (1994) is just a few nouvelle vague ideas thrown together, but I don't want to sound like I hate his films. I don't. I simply find narrative and character depth in Tarantino films coincidence, and that, while making the films, the director was simply enjoying himself. It's like a comic book on celluloid, with no character arcs--apart from living to dead.

Thanks for reading,
Mick

The Kill Bill movies are very brilliant and Tarrantino's genius can easily be seen in each one of them, but I dont really think there is that much depth behind them. IMO, Pai Mei is what he is in the film: The mean old martial arts super expert who makes Beatrix the warrior she is, and teaches her two manuvers that are very crucial to the plot (Punching through the coffin and 5 point palm exploding heart tecnique). Aside from that, I dont think he is anything more.

yes! just for fun, that's what I meant. I got that idea from a conversation I had with a friend about Budd's lifestyle, or what we can see of it. he is humiliated by his coke-snorter boss, has to clean up a messed up toilet even after being fired, and then returns to his lonely home - a trailer in the middle of the desert.

then we started to wonder what the hell was his everyday life. just like you could do with any carachter from "American Pie" or "Gigli". what I'm saying is that even if it doesn't has that much depth, Kill Bill features very interesting carachters whose background can be made up from some forgotten quote in the middle of the plot.

btw.........i just watched kill bill...and the anime scene shows the ring on the hand of the "bill" character not boss motsumoto....so yea...i was right! lol