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Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98238
02/15/05 09:50 PM
02/15/05 09:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
Patrick
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OP
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
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Women, Children Losing War on Poverty
Minimum-Wage Workers Stand Little Chance of Normal Subsistence
By Leslie Gevirtz, Reuters
NEW YORK (Feb. 15) - Despite a war on poverty that began more than four decades ago, the ranks of the hungry and homeless in the United States are increasing even as government funding declines, a study released on Tuesday found.
Sheila Oates, 44, a single mother of five, was recently drafted into those ranks.
She was a supervisor at Crabtree & Evelyn's candle making factory in Connecticut for five years until it closed in 2003. The unit of Malaysia-based Kuala Lumpur Kepong Berhad stopped making candles.
"I went on unemployment, but that ran out in September. I wasn't able to pay my bills. The food stamps weren't enough. And, well, I've been here since December 30," Oates said.
Here is the Holy Family Home and Shelter in Willimantic, Conn., a rural New England town lined with fast food restaurants and not much else about halfway between Hartford, Connecticut and Providence, R.I. It provides shelter and meals to 200 people annually, more than half of whom are children, said spokeswoman Sister Peter Bernhard.
Oates, who is working on her high school graduate equivalency diploma, said she has been applying for jobs but has not found one so far.
The National Student Campaign Against Hunger and Homelessness surveyed 900 providers of emergency food and shelter in 32 states and found that government cuts to social programs caused nearly one-fourth of the emergency food agencies to turn people away. More than three-quarters of shelters had no place for people to stay.
The Bush Administration proposes in its new budget to cut millions of dollars in funding to the three largest federal food programs: food stamps, school lunches and the Special Supplemental Nutrition Program for Women, Infants and Children, better known as WIC.
The U.S. Department of Agriculture, in an October 2004 report, said that 36.3 million people lived in households without enough food in 2003. The Urban Institute, based in Washington, D.C., found in a 2000 survey that 3.5 million people in the United States were homeless.
Oates is on the waiting list for Section 8 housing, the federally funded affordable housing program. The wait is more than a year now, said Sister Peter, but, she added, "It looks like it's going to be a lot longer." The Bush Administration has proposed billion dollar-cuts to that program.
Texas has stopped taking Section 8 applications.
"I just got a notice that they're not doing any applications until May," said Rev. Ray Bailey of the Dallas Life Foundation, which operates two shelters for the homeless.
Minimum wages in the United States do not go far toward eliminating homelessness.
The U.S. minimum wage is $5.15 an hour, but a separate survey by the National Low Income Housing Coalition found that in 2004 there was no place in the United States where a person earning as much as $9.17 an hour could afford a modest two-bedroom apartment.
A quarter of U.S. workers earn $9.17 an hour or less --about $19,000 annually or a little more than the $18,850 that is the official federal poverty level for a family of four.
Tawana Thomas, 34, who is living with two of her three children at the Union Gospel Mission in Dallas, is a living example of that economic equation.
Divorced, she moved back to her native Texas from South Dakota two years ago, and she found a job. "I had my own apartment, a two-bedroom in Highland Hills (a suburb of Dallas) ... then I lost it. I've been working at fast food places and at stores making minimum wage. But I couldn't afford the place."
"In South Dakota, $5.15 may pay the lights and the rent, but in Dallas, $5.15 pays the lights," Thomas said.
Poverty in America is on the verge once again. The same can be said about the last 3 Republican Presidents: They have been shut out of the 'war' on poverty like the Red Sox were shut out of a championship until last year. Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, and George W. Bush not only hold the top 3 highest deficits by any President ever, but George W. also increased the deficit much after Clinton had cut Reagan and Bush Sr's in half. The tax cuts continue to hurt the poor even more. We must raise taxes on the upper and middle classes of America. Oh, and before someone says, "That money helps out middle class families so much," let me tell you that we got our tax money back tonight. My parents got a combined $1,200 and I got about $176. If that extra $1,200 means that much to you, than I call you a selfish person with no heart. While you go out and buy your new Lexus, your pack of cigarettes, or your case of beer, just remember that there are people right down the street who could buy soap, shampoo, or a place to stay at night. Also, remember this: your tax dollars are put into funding for the Iraq war, in which over half of America is against. The legalization and government control of drugs needs to happen. Why shouldn't people be able to do what they want in their own homes? I'm not talking Amsterdam here, folks. If people are of drinking age, why shouldn't they be allowed to go into a store, buy a drug, and go home and use it? It makes one question this so called 'land of the free.' By legalizing drugs, we take care of 3 things. We can end the 'war' on drugs, which we're also losing, we can cut the deficit, and we can end a lot of violence. Now, I know what most of you're thinking. "This guy, Pat, he's gotta be a pothead to be saying this." That's not true. I am against the youth using drugs. It shouldn't be done because the majority of the youth aren't wise enough to make a decision. People who need help should be given it. Prisons are overpacked with minorities and lower class people who tried selling drugs to provide for their family. That is wrong. -Pat
"After every dark night, there's a bright day right after that. No matter how hard it gets, stick your chest out, keep your head up, and handle it." -Tupac Shakur
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98240
02/15/05 11:05 PM
02/15/05 11:05 PM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,206
Los Angeles
Letizia B.
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,206
Los Angeles
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Originally posted by Patrick:
While you go out and buy your new Lexus, your pack of cigarettes, or your case of beer, just remember that there are people right down the street who could buy soap, shampoo, or a place to stay at night. Don't play the guilt trip card, Pat, because it doesn't work. Especially on the "no excuses, suck it up" class of Capitalists (which is who you're preaching to here). There's nothing wrong with people buying expensive things. NOTHING wrong with it. You don't have to give ALL your money to the poor. Most rich people I know do give a lot of money to the poor and various charities. It's up to every individual person, IF and how much they want to give away. The way you're making it sound, is like no one is entitled to nice things that they've worked damn HARD for, until all the wealth is redistributed evenly among the poor. Like no one should buy anything until poverty is done away with. What is that?! If you want the redistribution of wealth, the U.S. is the wrong country for you. I've got nothing against giving to the poor... on the contrary, I think it's a very nice thing to do. However, I hate the guilt trips, and the assumption that just because someone just bought something new means that they don't give to charity. Furthermore... cigarettes and beer???? People are not entitled to the little things they want, either?! By the way, most homeless and "hungry" people that I see on the street have MORE beer and cigarettes than I've ever had in my whole life.  :rolleyes: Originally posted by Patrick:
Why shouldn't people be able to do what they want in their own homes? Why shouldn't people be able to do what they want with their hard-earned money? It's the exact same thing, and the exact same freedom that we're both fighting for here. :rolleyes: And Don Cardi is right (AGAIN!!!!), drug dealers are the scum of the earth. There's no excuse for that, like, "I was poor and needed to feed my 17 kids." That's bogus. Get a real job. Work at McDonald's, or something. And don't have so many damn kids if you can't afford them. :rolleyes: Besides, you're right, it's a losing battle-- poverty will never go away the way you want it to. Because even though there are many hard-working (even well-educated) people who are poor anyway, and really just can't make ends meet, they are the minority. Most poor people could lift themselves out of their situation if they tried, but they prefer to take handouts and just "survive." They have no ambition. So even if you redistribute all of the wealth in the U.S., lazy people will spend it and sink back down into the lower classes, while the hard-working will multiply it and make their money work for them. That's the facts. Please no one take this the wrong way... I'm not saying all poor people are lazy. I'm saying that poverty can never be completely eliminated because there ARE so many lazy people. For example, there are so many poor people now who USED to be rich... people whose parents left them million-dollar trust funds, and so they assumed that they don't need an education, they can just live it up. But within 5 or 10 years, all that money is suddenly gone and they're living on the street. It happens more often than you'd think. So all I'm saying is that poverty is here to stay because lazy people are incapable of turning one dollar into ten dollars-- and there are inevitably the more ambitious people who will widen the gap by rising fast, and it's unfair to stop them.
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98243
02/15/05 11:49 PM
02/15/05 11:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
Patrick
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OP
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
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Originally posted by Don Cardi:
[quote]Originally posted by Patrick:
[b] Prisons are overpacked with minorities and lower class people who tried selling drugs to provide for their family. That is wrong. -Pat They should try working for a living and finishing their education instead of polluting the children with drugs! Most are not trying to just provide for their families! The majority are trying to take the "easy" path to riches by dealing drugs! I say drug dealers. not addicts, but dealers, should rot in prison! A no tolorence law, with harsh penalties for drug dealers is what is needed to fight the war on drugs! Not legalization! :rolleyes: Don Cardi  [/b][/quote]That's a great idea! Let's overpack the prisons even more and spend over $20,000 an inmate! Is this fair, DC? A man working at a fast food restaurant isn't bringing in enough money. He decides to sell crack cocaine to earn money. He is caught with 50 grams of crack cocaine and arrested for the FIRST TIME in his life. He's sentenced to 10 years in prison. Fair? You bitch when he tries to get out of the struggle by selling drugs and you'll bitch if he goes on welfare. It's a lose-lose situation in your eyes. How about giving us something positive here? Originally posted by Letizia B.:
[QB] Don't play the guilt trip card, Pat, because it doesn't work. Especially on the "no excuses, suck it up" class of Capitalists (which is who you're preaching to here). Didn't you conservatives play this so called 'guilt trip' when you accused me of not supporting our troops because I didn't give private donations? There's nothing wrong with people buying expensive things. NOTHING wrong with it. You don't have to give ALL your money to the poor. Most rich people I know do give a lot of money to the poor and various charities. It's up to every individual person, IF and how much they want to give away. The way you're making it sound, is like no one is entitled to nice things that they've worked damn HARD for, until all the wealth is redistributed evenly among the poor. Like no one should buy anything until poverty is done away with. What is that?! If you want the redistribution of wealth, the U.S. is the wrong country for you.
What about the people who only want to wear one pair of clothing once and throw it out? How about those people who need 5 or 6 cars? Is it necessary? Working hard? What about the school teacher who went to college for 6 years and is getting paid pretty bad, while a sports agent can make millions with no education? Is that fair? I never said the US was the right country for me. I've got nothing against giving to the poor... on the contrary, I think it's a very nice thing to do. However, I hate the guilt trips, and the assumption that just because someone just bought something new means that they don't give to charity. Where were you to defend me when DC and DJ accused me of not supporting the troops because I didn't want to give private donations? Is that not the same thing? Furthermore... cigarettes and beer???? People are not entitled to the little things they want, either?! By the way, most homeless and "hungry" people that I see on the street have MORE beer and cigarettes than I've ever had in my whole life. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that cigarettes and beer are non-essentials when compared to soap or a place to stay at night. BTW, you're right, a lot of the homeless do drink and alcohol let them to their downfall. Do they not deserve a chance to be rehabilitated and given another opportunity at succeeding in life? And Don Cardi is right (AGAIN!!!!), drug dealers are the scum of the earth. There's no excuse for that, like, "I was poor and needed to feed my 17 kids." That's bogus. Get a real job. Work at McDonald's, or something. And don't have so many damn kids if you can't afford them. Most drug dealers already work in fast food and can't provide for their wife and child. Maybe they wouldn't have had kids had their school tought contraception over abstinence. Because even though there are many hard-working (even well-educated) people who are poor anyway, and really just can't make ends meet, they are the minority. Most poor people could lift themselves out of their situation if they tried, but they prefer to take handouts and just "survive." They have no ambition. So even if you redistribute all of the wealth in the U.S., lazy people will spend it and sink back down into the lower classes, while the hard-working will multiply it and make their money work for them. That's the facts. That's the rudest thing I've ever heard. "Poor people have no ambition and they WANT to life off of government handouts." Give me a break. No one wants to live like that. Tupac said it best: "Perhaps it's just a fantasy, a life where we don't need no welfare shit with our whole family." Besides, you're right, it's a losing battle-- poverty will never go away the way you want it to. Give me time. 
"After every dark night, there's a bright day right after that. No matter how hard it gets, stick your chest out, keep your head up, and handle it." -Tupac Shakur
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98244
02/15/05 11:52 PM
02/15/05 11:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
Patrick
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
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Originally posted by Mr. Baggins:
Didn't feel like responding to Pat's calls for socialism again... I'd say I'm just right of socialism, but just left of center.  There has never been a true socialist state.
"After every dark night, there's a bright day right after that. No matter how hard it gets, stick your chest out, keep your head up, and handle it." -Tupac Shakur
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98245
02/16/05 02:50 AM
02/16/05 02:50 AM
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,206
Los Angeles
Letizia B.
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 4,206
Los Angeles
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I just saw a great game, I was in a good mood, and I come back home to THIS?! You totally twisted what I said, and disregarded the parts where I already went over the concerns you brought up. I didn't mean it in a rude way at ALL. But I don't think you read it word for word, because if you had, you would have noticed that. Like did you not see this part? Originally posted by Letizia B.:
Because even though there are many hard-working (even well-educated) people who are poor anyway, and really just can't make ends meet, they are the minority. That's the part where I meant about the honest, educated, hardworking people who have low-paying jobs. But they ARE the minority. Originally posted by Letizia B.:
So even if you redistribute all of the wealth in the U.S., lazy people will spend it and sink back down into the lower classes, while the hard-working will multiply it and make their money work for them.
I didn't say all poor people will be screw-ups. I said that lazy people will not prevail, no matter what. Originally posted by Letizia B.:
Please no one take this the wrong way... I'm not saying all poor people are lazy. I'm saying that poverty can never be completely eliminated because there ARE so many lazy people.
I even explained myself here already. I can't believe I'm copy/pasting from my own message so that you can notice certain parts. Originally posted by Letizia B.:
For example, there are so many poor people now who USED to be rich... people whose parents left them million-dollar trust funds, and so they assumed that they don't need an education, they can just live it up. But within 5 or 10 years, all that money is suddenly gone and they're living on the street. It happens more often than you'd think.
See? I'm not saying all lazy people are poor and that all poor people are lazy. I'm saying that no matter what opportunities are given to them, if left alone, lazy people are destined to eventually become poor. I'm saying that it can happen to anyone, if they are lazy. Originally posted by Letizia B.:
...lazy people are incapable of turning one dollar into ten dollars-- and there are inevitably the more ambitious people who will widen the gap by rising fast, and it's unfair to stop them. Call it social Darwinism if you want, call it irreversible personality traits, call it what you will. This is what I firmly believe. I'm sorry that I didn't sugar-coat my original post. If you got the impression that I was being rude, then I think you misunderstood me. I guess it can be a bit harsh without euphemisms. Originally posted by Patrick:
What about the people who only want to wear one pair of clothing once and throw it out? How about those people who need 5 or 6 cars? Is it necessary? Yeah, that's their business. I know people who buy thousands of dollars' worth of clothes in one day, and leave it in their closet, forgotten, and after it's gone out of style, they remember they had it, but it's too late to wear it anymore. So they end up never having ONCE put it on. It's a bit much, yes, but it's their money, and therefore their business. They can buy as MUCH as they want, even if they KNOW they're never going to wear it... it's up to them. A lot of people donate their unused clothes to Goodwill, by the way. But that's WAY beyond the point. Other points: Originally posted by Patrick:
Most drug dealers already work in fast food and can't provide for their wife and child. Maybe they wouldn't have had kids had their school tought contraception over abstinence.
Ohhhhhhh Puh-leeeeze. Still bogus, my friend. There's no excuse for that. Most of them dropped out of school anyway... don't blame it on their school's sex-ed. How come other adults who went to public schools don't have 800 kids and sell drugs? . . By the way, as far as I can remember, I didn't get on your case about the troops. But I will jump in now and say this... it's not a good comparison, I'll tell you why. The poor have probably never done anything positive for you. Sorry if that sounds mean... that's fine, help them as much as you want. But here's the point: our troops put their lives on the line every single day for us. They endure harsh conditions, pain, and humiliation. It's VERY different. You don't have to donate to the troops if you don't want, Pat. But it's different, and I think it's unfair to compare the two. Again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. It wasn't meant that way. None of my comments were aimed at poor people in general; just the lazy ones.
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98246
02/16/05 02:58 AM
02/16/05 02:58 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950
DonMichaelCorleone
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,950
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Most drug dealers already work in fast food and can't provide for their wife and child. Where are your statistics to back up that statement? I have to say Pat, when you make statements like that your arguments lose all credibility. I've posted this more times than I can remember but you can't use terms like "most" when you don't have evidence to back it up.
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98247
02/16/05 03:50 AM
02/16/05 03:50 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 384
Illinois
Lauren8
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 384
Illinois
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Please no one take this the wrong way... I'm not saying all poor people are lazy. I'm saying that poverty can never be completely eliminated because there ARE so many lazy people. Another reason that it is so difficult to eliminate poverty is because there is an endless cycle of poverty existing in the U.S. I had to read a great book for a Soc class last semester called Nickel and Dimed, about a upper/middle class woman who decided to put herself out in the lower class/minimun wage working world, to see if she could make it. She discovered, even working non stop, 2 jobs, that she could barely make ends meet. Many of the people the author of this book encountered during her study were in even worse shape than she was; they worked full-time, but they could not make enough money at one time to put any kind of deposit on a place to live. Many people lived out of their vehicles, or rented hotel rooms. It was like a horrible cycle; these people made so little money that they ended up losing even more in the long run. There is a huge, huge problem in America with the working poor, and their problems have nothing to do with being lazy. Of course, there is another huge problem with the people who don't work who are lazy...i know stories from one of the grammar school districts near where I go to school that are horrifying; one of my best friends student teaches, and alot of the kids she deals with aspire to be just like their parents...and believe me when I say this is not a good thing! I don't know how to solve these problems...I really wish the minimum wage was higher, esp. for adults. Like I said, I was really shocked by the concept of the working poor...I can't imagine what it would be like to be in a position in life that cannot improve...very sad.
~*~*~*~Lauren~*~*~*~
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98248
02/16/05 05:11 AM
02/16/05 05:11 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
afsaneh77
Mother of Dragons
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Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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I'm very much against legalizing pot and other drugs. Drugs and poverty are quite the same thing. but instead of focusing on scum of the Earth that sell it to everyone, those who transit it big time have to be stopped which seems very unlikely to happen in this lifetime. Organized drug dealers have strong roots and they are not vulnerable.
Raising the minimum wages has nothing to do with poor or lazy people. If someone has a full-time job, they should be able to afford a modest living and be able to raise up to two kids which is not possible with $19,000 per year in the US.
And come to think of it, I don't know what would I've done if I was the ninth kid of a bum. Didn't I deserve to get to go to college and get a degree so I could have a better life? Or laziness runs down in the family? And you know, with the same condition that I had maybe and I 'm saying maybe I couldn't afford to go to college if I were born in the US. But thanks to free educations for all here, I was given a chance to go to college and get my degree and now afford a comfortable life. But if I should die and have kids left behind, or somehow become disabled; I want the same chance for my children. Yeah, I believe in socialism to this extend and I don't believe it is a bad thing at all.
And by the way, you can't tell people how to handle the money they are going to donate. It is a volunteer act and everyone should be free to decide who more deserves the money, otherwise you can't call it donation anymore, It is called taxes.
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98251
02/16/05 06:34 AM
02/16/05 06:34 AM
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
afsaneh77
Mother of Dragons
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Mother of Dragons
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 5,602
Yunkai
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Originally posted by svsg:
Afs, What is this $19,000 figure? $19,000 is the rough estimate of the annual income of a couple who work for minimum wages. Back in 2002 when I filed taxes, a person/family with such income or up to $22,000 per year, didn't have to pay taxes at all. I was making $40,000 per year before taxes and I can tell you since I couldn't live just anywhere because I was a girl living on my own I could almost break even with such an income with having a small saving.
"Fire cannot kill a dragon." -Daenerys Targaryen, Game of Thrones
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98252
02/16/05 09:44 AM
02/16/05 09:44 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
Cancerkitty
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
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Okay, for starters, who the hell works a minumum wage job? You can walk into any McDonald's, anywhere in the United States, and start at about seven bucks an hour, which is more than one dollar above minimum wage. Therefore I have absolutely no sympathy for these people who can't make it working minimum wage jobs because they are either stupid, lazy, or, perhaps more likely, both.
And this heart wrenching article about the single mother of five working at a factory who dropped out of high school? Poor baby. I don't mean to sound insensative, but maybe if she was a little more responsible she wouldn't be in this situation? Why do we feel sorry for stupid people like this? This woman is an idiot, and has gotten herself into such a terrible sitation that my tax money now has to support her, terrific! I couldn't be happier about that.
Finally, Pat, I don't see where you get this romanticising of drug dealers. Like they're all selling some weed on the side to support their families. Most of them are just lazy, or greedy, or junkies, or a combination thereof. How many drug dealers have you met in your life? I've dealt with quite a few, and guess what? They were all shitheals. However, I do agree about legalizing drugs, with one major cavaet: no government funding should go to helping people who become adicted. If you're an adict, tough shit. But that will never happen.
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98253
02/16/05 10:06 AM
02/16/05 10:06 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,735
Lavinia from Italy
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,735
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Originally posted by Cancerkitty:
I don't mean to sound insensative, [/QB] you sounded so, though! I mean, who are we to judge this woman? We don't know anything about her. Life can be hard, especially for women. Sometimes we should have more sympathy for the unfortunate, IMO. On the contrary, I'm completely with you about drug dealers.
I don't want realism. I want magic! Yes, yes, magic. I try to give that to people. I do misrepresent things. I don't tell the truth. I tell what ought to be truth (Blanche/A streetcar named desire)
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98254
02/16/05 10:26 AM
02/16/05 10:26 AM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
Cancerkitty
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
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Originally posted by Lavinia from Italy:
I mean, who are we to judge this woman? We don't know anything about her. Life can be hard, especially for women. Sometimes we should have more sympathy for the unfortunate, IMO. You're right, of course. We don't really have all the information to judge this woman. She could certainly have had some very unfortunate experiances in life, and I appreciate that, I really do, but I get so sick of hear about these people. Not everyone who is poor is so because of straighted circumstance, most of the (not all!) are poor because they made themselves that way. I'm sure you're thinking I have no basis for this, but I do. I grew up in northern Michigan, one of the poorest counties in the state. I knew lots and lots of really poor people. Lots of drug dealers (yes, we had those up there), and lots of drunks. Most of these people didn't work not because they were incapable, or because work was not availible, but because they didn't want to. There are families that I know who haven't worked in four or five generations! This is why I'm kind of callous about the poor. I know there are those that can't help it, and who legitimately need the help, but I also know that most just don't feel like putting forth the effort to be any other way.
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98255
02/16/05 03:21 PM
02/16/05 03:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 384
Illinois
Lauren8
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 384
Illinois
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Okay, for starters, who the hell works a minumum wage job? You can walk into any McDonald's, anywhere in the United States, and start at about seven bucks an hour, which is more than one dollar above minimum wage. Therefore I have absolutely no sympathy for these people who can't make it working minimum wage jobs because they are either stupid, lazy, or, perhaps more likely, both.
$7/hour, full time is nowhere near enough is make it. Think of all the factors of living: rent, car payment/insurance, food, utlities, etc. It is simply not possible for someone to decently support themselves on those kind of wages, not to mention any dependants. I agree with you, I don't feel too sorry for people who refuse to work...that accomplishes nothing, but when you come from a shit life, cannot even begin to afford any kind of higher education, then this leads to a shit job, and a shit life. I know a woman at the store I work at who is married and has 2 kids. Both she and her husband make around $10-12/hour. They are good, hardworking people, and they are dirt poor. I know they're not extravagent, but they have credit card bills through the roof and they can barely support themselves. There's something very wrong with this picture!
~*~*~*~Lauren~*~*~*~
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98256
02/16/05 04:13 PM
02/16/05 04:13 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 419
Cleveland
Rocky
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 419
Cleveland
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Originally posted by Lauren8:
I know a woman at the store I work at who is married and has 2 kids. Both she and her husband make around $10-12/hour. They are good, hardworking people, and they are dirt poor. I know they're not extravagent, but they have credit card bills through the roof and they can barely support themselves. There's something very wrong with this picture! You're right, there is something very wrong with this. Two parents, making around $10-12/hour, working 35 hours/week would make around $40,000/year. The poverty threshold for a family of four w/ 2 kids is $18,660. This means that family is making more than $21k above thier particular poverty threshold - yet as you say, they are dirt poor. Ladies and gentlemen, the problem here is obvious - credit cards are the root of all evil. :p
— Rocky
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98257
02/16/05 04:31 PM
02/16/05 04:31 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
Cancerkitty
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
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Originally posted by Lauren8:
$7/hour, full time is nowhere near enough is make it. Think of all the factors of living: rent, car payment/insurance, food, utlities, etc. It is simply not possible for someone to decently support themselves on those kind of wages, not to mention any dependants. I agree with you, I don't feel too sorry for people who refuse to work...that accomplishes nothing, but when you come from a shit life, cannot even begin to afford any kind of higher education, then this leads to a shit job, and a shit life. I know a woman at the store I work at who is married and has 2 kids. Both she and her husband make around $10-12/hour. They are good, hardworking people, and they are dirt poor. I know they're not extravagent, but they have credit card bills through the roof and they can barely support themselves. There's something very wrong with this picture! That wasn't my point, Lauren. My point was that no one works for minimum wage. If you can start at any McDonald's for seven dollars an hour, surely there are other jobs out there earning more. And seven dollars an hour working forty hour weeks is about fourteen thousand a year, no, it's not much considering all your expensises, but nothing's stopping a person from working two jobs. And if you work hard enough at one seven dollar an hour job, you're going to get raises and promotions. I think it is possible for people to make it, providing they are willing to work their asses off for a while.
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98259
02/16/05 05:51 PM
02/16/05 05:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
Patrick
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
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Originally posted by Letizia B:
Yeah, that's their business. I know people who buy thousands of dollars' worth of clothes in one day, and leave it in their closet, forgotten, and after it's gone out of style, they remember they had it, but it's too late to wear it anymore. So they end up never having ONCE put it on. Those people should be beaten and I would personally kick their ass if I knew someone who did that. "While the rich kids is driving Benz', I'm still trying to hold on to surviving friends." Originally posted by DonMichaelCorleone:
Where are your statistics to back up that statement?
I have to say Pat, when you make statements like that your arguments lose all credibility.
I've posted this more times than I can remember but you can't use terms like "most" when you don't have evidence to back it up. Oh DMC, give it a break. I don't need stats to give you proof of the people around me. I'm speaking from my heart and what I see with my own eyes. Originally posted by Cancerkitty:
Okay, for starters, who the hell works a minumum wage job? You can walk into any McDonald's, anywhere in the United States, and start at about seven bucks an hour, which is more than one dollar above minimum wage. Therefore I have absolutely no sympathy for these people who can't make it working minimum wage jobs because they are either stupid, lazy, or, perhaps more likely, both. Oh really? I've been working at Arby's for 2 years and I'm only making $6.60 an hour. I started at the small $5.15 rate too. One 40 hour week didn't even get me over $200.
And this heart wrenching article about the single mother of five working at a factory who dropped out of high school? Poor baby. I don't mean to sound insensative, but maybe if she was a little more responsible she wouldn't be in this situation? Why do we feel sorry for stupid people like this? This woman is an idiot, and has gotten herself into such a terrible sitation that my tax money now has to support her, terrific! I couldn't be happier about that. So you're one of the people who don't believe in 2nd chances then? BTW, how is your tax money supporting her? She hasn't been on unemployment since September. Finally, Pat, I don't see where you get this romanticising of drug dealers. Like they're all selling some weed on the side to support their families. Most of them are just lazy, or greedy, or junkies, or a combination thereof. How many drug dealers have you met in your life? I've dealt with quite a few, and guess what? They were all shitheals. However, I do agree about legalizing drugs, with one major cavaet: no government funding should go to helping people who become adicted. If you're an adict, tough shit. But that will never happen.
How am I romanticizing drug dealers? There's a difference between drug dealers who kill each other and only want money for themselves. There's the drug dealers who give the money they earn to their family and other poor people. Thugs, my friend, Thugs. -Pat
"After every dark night, there's a bright day right after that. No matter how hard it gets, stick your chest out, keep your head up, and handle it." -Tupac Shakur
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98261
02/16/05 07:12 PM
02/16/05 07:12 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
Cancerkitty
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
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Originally posted by Patrick:
So you're one of the people who don't believe in 2nd chances then? BTW, how is your tax money supporting her? She hasn't been on unemployment since September. Tax money supporting her? Well, she was on unemployment, which lasts from six months to a year and a half. The fact that she's not on it now doesn't mean she wasn't. Second, she's on food stamps, Third, she's receiving help from a selter which is either getting government funding itself, or it's tax exempt, either way that more money out of my pocket. How am I romanticizing drug dealers? There's a difference between drug dealers who kill each other and only want money for themselves. There's the drug dealers who give the money they earn to their family and other poor people. Thugs, my friend, Thugs. -Pat
Simply by saying there are a lot of people who sell drugs to support their families (thugs? I'm not really clear on that), you are romanticising them.
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98262
02/16/05 07:15 PM
02/16/05 07:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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Originally posted by Patrick:
[quote]Originally posted by Don Cardi:
[b] [quote]Originally posted by Patrick:
[b] Prisons are overpacked with minorities and lower class people who tried selling drugs to provide for their family. That is wrong. -Pat They should try working for a living and finishing their education instead of polluting the children with drugs! Most are not trying to just provide for their families! The majority are trying to take the "easy" path to riches by dealing drugs! I say drug dealers. not addicts, but dealers, should rot in prison! A no tolorence law, with harsh penalties for drug dealers is what is needed to fight the war on drugs! Not legalization! :rolleyes: Don Cardi [/b][/quote]That's a great idea! Let's overpack the prisons even more and spend over $20,000 an inmate! Is this fair, DC? A man working at a fast food restaurant isn't bringing in enough money. He decides to sell crack cocaine to earn money. He is caught with 50 grams of crack cocaine and arrested for the FIRST TIME in his life. He's sentenced to 10 years in prison. Fair? You bitch when he tries to get out of the struggle by selling drugs and you'll bitch if he goes on welfare. It's a lose-lose situation in your eyes. How about giving us something positive here? [/b][/quote]I say put them on a chain gang and make them WORK to pay for their staying in prison! Force them to EARN their keep for living in a prison! Let them repair roads, build up and contribute to the communities that they polluted with their dealing of drugs in the first place! I don't have a bit of sympathy for someone who sells dope and destroys a child's life! Don Cardi
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98266
02/16/05 09:57 PM
02/16/05 09:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
Patrick
OP
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OP
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 8,536
West Chester, PA
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DC, DS, and CK---Slavery ended in 1865. :rolleyes:
CK---You failed to address your minimum wage statement.
"After every dark night, there's a bright day right after that. No matter how hard it gets, stick your chest out, keep your head up, and handle it." -Tupac Shakur
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Re: Pat's Thoughts Volume 49: 'War' on poverty is a losing struggle
#98267
02/16/05 10:23 PM
02/16/05 10:23 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
Cancerkitty
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,185
Detroit, MI
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Pat - Oh, right. Have you looked around for another job that might pay more? Have you requested a raise? I'm not saying there aren't jobs that pay minimum wage, there certainly age, but if people looked around a little more they could easily find something above it.
Besides, if I remember correctly, you're still in high school, about 16 or 17? Usually, places that hire high schoolers pay them less than other people. When I was in high school I worked at a restaurant making $3.00 an hour (and this was when minimum wage was 4.25).
Basically, my point is that people don't have to make minimum wage if they're willing to do a little searching to find something better.
And slavery ending in 1865? Yes, yes it did. But convicts have always been expected to work, as well they should. They are been housed, clothed, fed, and medically treated for free; they should do some work to help balance this out. You have to remember these are prisoners, supposedly they've lost their rights to begin with.
Also, in Michigan, I don't know if it's like this elsewhere, but prisoners are paid for working. It's not much, and I wish they didn't get anything, but they are paid.
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Why not trying to get a job.
