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Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
#1081672
01/30/24 09:45 AM
01/30/24 09:45 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
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LUCKY LUCIANO vs. VITO GENOVESE
Legendary New York CIty-based mafiosi Salvatore (Charlie Lucky Luciano) Lucania, and his lifelong sidekick and partner, Vito (Don Vitone) Genovese, were arguably two of the most important Cosa Nostra bosses to ever live and operate in the United States. They were both pivotal and iconic figures in the annals of organized crime, in both America and Italy, and go down in the history books as such.
But between the two of them, in your opinion, which one do you feel was the more intelligent, shrewder and successful mafioso and racketeer? Admittedly, Luciano became the first boss of the “newly” reorganized and reconstituted Masseria family. It was later renamed the Luciano Family.
Charlie then named as his trusty underboss, Vito Genovese, who served for decades in that position until he himself later rose up to become the new boss of the family, renaming it, the Genovese Family.
Each man had their pluses, and each had their minuses. So weigh them out accordingly and pick who you feel was the better of the two leaders…Was it;
A) Salvatore Lucania
B) Vito Genovese
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: NYMafia]
#1081679
01/30/24 01:23 PM
01/30/24 01:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 376
Big_Tuna93
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jan 2022
Posts: 376
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Both were instrumental, but I'd actually lean towards Genovese. Lucky gets credited with alot, and deservedly so, but if you think about it, he wasn't on the street all that long. Commission was formed in the early 30s, and he was off to jail by the late 30's, then off to Italy. Obviously he held heavy influence, but Genovese was mostly here in the states, with his eyes on everything going on. He had a short stint in Italy as well, and held enough power to cozy up to Mussolini. I will say, I think that Genovese is to blame for Apalachin getting busted, but the guy saw and presided over the Genovese family when the mob ran everything. For my money, I'm taking Costello over both.
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: Big_Tuna93]
#1081698
01/30/24 03:53 PM
01/30/24 03:53 PM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
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Both were instrumental, but I'd actually lean towards Genovese. Lucky gets credited with alot, and deservedly so, but if you think about it, he wasn't on the street all that long. Commission was formed in the early 30s, and he was off to jail by the late 30's, then off to Italy. Obviously he held heavy influence, but Genovese was mostly here in the states, with his eyes on everything going on. He had a short stint in Italy as well, and held enough power to cozy up to Mussolini. I will say, I think that Genovese is to blame for Apalachin getting busted, but the guy saw and presided over the Genovese family when the mob ran everything. For my money, I'm taking Costello over both. You certainly make some good points, BT. Thats why I thought this question, in particular, would be interesting to discuss. Because both these fellas had great points, and a few not so great points, about them. Also, I agree with you about Frank. For my money, nobody could touch him!
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: Big_Tuna93]
#1081742
01/30/24 06:41 PM
01/30/24 06:41 PM
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Joined: May 2022
Posts: 245
Brovelli
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: May 2022
Posts: 245
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Both were instrumental, but I'd actually lean towards Genovese. Lucky gets credited with alot, and deservedly so, but if you think about it, he wasn't on the street all that long. Commission was formed in the early 30s, and he was off to jail by the late 30's, then off to Italy. Obviously he held heavy influence, but Genovese was mostly here in the states, with his eyes on everything going on. He had a short stint in Italy as well, and held enough power to cozy up to Mussolini. I will say, I think that Genovese is to blame for Apalachin getting busted, but the guy saw and presided over the Genovese family when the mob ran everything. For my money, I'm taking Costello over both. I think Vito was in Italy for more like 10 years, something like 1936-47 give or take. When he returned to the US my understanding is he was a captain under Costello. Tough to compare the two as Luciano lived through the largest war where he orchestrated many of the killings and ultimate outcomes. I always have a bit of a slimy view of Genovese also as a major heroin dealer, attempted murder on Costello who is generally highly respected, likely involved in the murder of his second wife’s husband, guy just seems fucking nasty. But both were equally as ruthless in their ascent. But from general reading in what I hear about each guy I would go with Luciano as the more respectable and “better” leader. The alliances he was able to make and people he influenced is pretty impressive with all that was going on in the early 30s. And even in Italy I believe his influence was still of value, maybe less so after Costello stepped down.
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: Jimmy_Two_Times]
#1081807
01/30/24 10:04 PM
01/30/24 10:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,513
AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,513
AZ
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Neither was Don for very long, and both were tripped up by stupid mistakes. But, I agree with Jimmy: Luciano had vision. He got rid of the two "Mustache Petes" whose ideas and actions belonged in Sicily, not America. He formed the Commission, and valued cooperation over competition. And he accepted help and advice from people whose brains were more important to him than their nationality.
Costello made an equally important contribution to modern Mafia in America: he used politics, not machine guns, to achieve power and grow business. Before Costello, NY Mob families had to buy political influence from the Irish Tammany Hall machine--no love lost among Irish and Italians. Costello took advantage of "Reform" Mayor LaGuardia's war on Tammany to step into the political vacuum with money and influence. He was smart enough not to replace all the Irish pols with Italian pols, but all of them were beholden to Uncle Frank. He was a major backer of William O'Dwyer, who got famous prosecuting Murder Inc., and who, as Mayor (with Costello's help) went easy on gambling--Costello's main racket.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: NYMafia]
#1081811
01/30/24 11:58 PM
01/30/24 11:58 PM
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,135
212-n-305
CNote
Brooklyn Bum
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Brooklyn Bum
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,135
212-n-305
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Great post NYM, very creative, my compliments.
It's the classic case of the Lupo and the Urso, the racketeer and the gangster. Luciano, under the tutelage of Arnold Rothstein, learned to be a criminal businessman. Vito learned from Luciano, who wasn't as polished as Rothstein, and was more prone to violence as a means to an end rather than as a last resort, a cowboy. The mob was full of them, guys who thought their balls were so big they could do whatever they wanted. Gerry Papa, Roy DeMeo even Gotti, who had the balls to whack a boss were all like that. Luciano was set up by Dewey because he knew that Luciano was too dangerous to be allowed to fully realize the potential of organized crime to society. Genovese was set up by the mob because they knew he was too dangerous to be allowed to fully realize his potential of organized crime, to organized crime. Everybody knew that if Genovese became Capo di tutti Capi, he would bring a lot of heat down on them and bring everything down. So he was made to look bad with the Apalachin and set up by Cantellops for the hroin charge which took him out of the picture cleanly.
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: Hollander]
#1081880
01/31/24 08:55 PM
01/31/24 08:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 72
Butchie1788
Button
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Button
Joined: Feb 2017
Posts: 72
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There was only 2 Gangsters that were called a DON
Vito and Don Carlo Gambino I know Don Carlo was Sicilian just making a Point and the Fact that Don Vito was a Ferocious Street Fighter and was Known to do Hits like a True Gangster I go with Vito Genovese with out a Doubt and if you think about it any Gangster you Read about who were Street Fighters there was John Gotti Vincent Gigante Mario Gigante Tommy Eboli Quiet Dom Cirillo Roy DeMeo Pasquale Erra Albert Barraso Frank (Punchy) Illiano I guess that’s why they are called Street Neapolitans !
Last edited by Butchie1788; 01/31/24 09:08 PM.
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: Toodoped]
#1081921
02/01/24 06:22 AM
02/01/24 06:22 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,629
Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,629
Underground
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Luciano was boss before Vito...Luciano was in the narcotics biz before Vito, although it is possible that later Vito took it to another level while in Italy but still, Lucky was one of the prime players during the 50s....Lucky also had interests in Cuba since the 30s...so Ill go with Luciano ...in addition to my previous post, according to two prison guards who were watching Luciano in jail on daily basis, said that whenever some of the inmates visited Lucky, after finishing their comvo, they never turned their backs at him but instead they exited his cell walking backwards like saluting a "King". Also (I already posted this in a different thread), when Lucky was placed on a ship to Italy, at least a dozen of cars filled with Luckys associates followed the ship on the docks as a last farewell. Thats RESPECT.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: Jimmy_Two_Times]
#1081929
02/01/24 08:10 AM
02/01/24 08:10 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
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A really good thought provoking question NYM… my compliments! Thank you, Jimmy. I thought it was an interesting topic to contemplate, and for possible forum discussion. So I decided to post it for us. I'm glad to see it so warmly received.
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: Toodoped]
#1081937
02/01/24 08:50 AM
02/01/24 08:50 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
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Luciano was boss before Vito...Luciano was in the narcotics biz before Vito, although it is possible that later Vito took it to another level while in Italy but still, Lucky was one of the prime players during the 50s....Lucky also had interests in Cuba since the 30s...so Ill go with Luciano ...in addition to my previous post, according to two prison guards who were watching Luciano in jail on daily basis, said that whenever some of the inmates visited Lucky, after finishing their comvo, they never turned their backs at him but instead they exited his cell walking backwards like saluting a "King". Also (I already posted this in a different thread), when Lucky was placed on a ship to Italy, at least a dozen of cars filled with Luckys associates followed the ship on the docks as a last farewell. Thats RESPECT. Thats true, TD. I remember reading that too.
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: NYMafia]
#1082057
02/02/24 04:32 AM
02/02/24 04:32 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,629
Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,629
Underground
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Luciano was boss before Vito...Luciano was in the narcotics biz before Vito, although it is possible that later Vito took it to another level while in Italy but still, Lucky was one of the prime players during the 50s....Lucky also had interests in Cuba since the 30s...so Ill go with Luciano ...in addition to my previous post, according to two prison guards who were watching Luciano in jail on daily basis, said that whenever some of the inmates visited Lucky, after finishing their comvo, they never turned their backs at him but instead they exited his cell walking backwards like saluting a "King". Also (I already posted this in a different thread), when Lucky was placed on a ship to Italy, at least a dozen of cars filled with Luckys associates followed the ship on the docks as a last farewell. Thats RESPECT. Thats true, TD. I remember reading that too. Btw, maybe Im wrong but wasnt Luciano and Lansky (together with Trafficante Sr) who gathered most of the bosses in Cuba regarding their casinos and also regarding further "invasion" of that same country? Previously Luciano family associate Lansky made deals with the Cuban regime by using Trafficante Sr as a contact and also as translator. I believe Lansky was closer with Lucky than with Vito, and thats why both Lansky and Lucky probably represented the new plan and investments to the rest of the commission bosses.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: NYMafia]
#1082058
02/02/24 05:42 AM
02/02/24 05:42 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 906
blueracing347
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 906
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Luciano is often pegged as the architect of the modern day mafia. He eventually gets put away for serious time based on some trumped up charges. He takes his time like a man. Eventually receiving a pardon by the same douche that put him away. This happens after aiding the US Military in WW2. While deported, he still remains on top and is influential around the world. He later dies of a heart attack.
Well, until recently, I thought a certain scene in Boardwalk Empire was fiction. The scene is where Luciano sets up some others with heroin. Toodoped recently posted an article with a transcript of Dewey questing questioning Luciano about ratting during a narcotics bust. Fucking devastating!
That's strike one. Strike two comes with the fucking guy fixing to sell his story?
Genovese. An individual that demonstrated he was a force to be reckoned with. He stood by Lucky since the beginning. It was Genovese,Costello, and Lucky that headed that family for almost 4 decades (30's - 60's). When things got too hot in the US, he went to Italy. He helps out the US military in WW2. He gets extradited, comes home, and makes his witness disappear. While Lucky is overseas and Costello is doing the political thing, Genovese is keeping their family protected. The only one with the balls to take on Genovese is Anastasia. For whatever reason, Anastasia didn't go after Genovese following the Costello hit. Strike 1. Going after Costello. Bad for business and total lack of respect. Strike 2. Appalachian? Was it all his fault? I'm sure the meeting was for more than just acknowledging Genovese as boss. Strike 3. The ultimate fuckup. Valachi.
At the end of the day, Genovese never ratted or sold his story. His drug charges were trumped up but put him away until he died. Nobody ever challenged him before or after he became boss. But there's the Havana story where Lucky breaks the ribs of Genovese. The boss shouldn't be laying his hands on another made man. Genovese respected the boss and didn't fight back. But that story has been called a lie in recent times. My answer is Genovese. Two months ago, it would've been Lucky hands down. But that story about him snitching, really bothers me.
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: blueracing347]
#1082059
02/02/24 06:37 AM
02/02/24 06:37 AM
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,629
Underground
Toodoped
Murder Ink
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Murder Ink
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,629
Underground
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Luciano is often pegged as the architect of the modern day mafia. He eventually gets put away for serious time based on some trumped up charges. He takes his time like a man. Eventually receiving a pardon by the same douche that put him away. This happens after aiding the US Military in WW2. While deported, he still remains on top and is influential around the world. He later dies of a heart attack.
Well, until recently, I thought a certain scene in Boardwalk Empire was fiction. The scene is where Luciano sets up some others with heroin. Toodoped recently posted an article with a transcript of Dewey questing questioning Luciano about ratting during a narcotics bust. Fucking devastating!
That's strike one. Strike two comes with the fucking guy fixing to sell his story?
Genovese. An individual that demonstrated he was a force to be reckoned with. He stood by Lucky since the beginning. It was Genovese,Costello, and Lucky that headed that family for almost 4 decades (30's - 60's). When things got too hot in the US, he went to Italy. He helps out the US military in WW2. He gets extradited, comes home, and makes his witness disappear. While Lucky is overseas and Costello is doing the political thing, Genovese is keeping their family protected. The only one with the balls to take on Genovese is Anastasia. For whatever reason, Anastasia didn't go after Genovese following the Costello hit. Strike 1. Going after Costello. Bad for business and total lack of respect. Strike 2. Appalachian? Was it all his fault? I'm sure the meeting was for more than just acknowledging Genovese as boss. Strike 3. The ultimate fuckup. Valachi.
At the end of the day, Genovese never ratted or sold his story. His drug charges were trumped up but put him away until he died. Nobody ever challenged him before or after he became boss. But there's the Havana story where Lucky breaks the ribs of Genovese. The boss shouldn't be laying his hands on another made man. Genovese respected the boss and didn't fight back. But that story has been called a lie in recent times. My answer is Genovese. Two months ago, it would've been Lucky hands down. But that story about him snitching, really bothers me. All good points @blueracing and I agree, although I think that young Lucky wasnt even a made guy when he snitched on his pals in the narco case. Correct me if Im wrong but I think that the arrested youngsters werent even connected to the Italian Mafia at the time. Again, I dont remember the whole story but let me give you another same example. Chicago Outfit boss Louis "Little New York" Campagna was one of those hardcore and crucial Capone members who played a major role in helping the organization to takeover the second largest city at the time. When Capone went to jail, Campagna became Riccas underboss and after his release from prison regarding the Hollywood case, Campagna and Ricca became the two top bosses for the organization. When Campagna died in 1955, Accardo took his place next to Ricca. NOW, when Campagna was a youngster and was involved in petty crimes, he was arrested by the cops (as "Louis Campini") regarding some robbery together with young Frank Rio (later Capones underboss) and few other guys. Young Campagna allegedly snitched on his friends who were later arrested. Because of that Campagna fled to New York and later, or in 1928, he returned to Chicago, after his involvement in the murder of Frankie Yale. So I think you can see the similarity between Lucianos and Campagnas cases?! I believe thats why later they were labelled by the old Mafiosi as the "Americanized" faction, meaning they didnt care much about the traditional rules and worked with everyone.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: NYMafia]
#1082067
02/02/24 09:14 AM
02/02/24 09:14 AM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 23,949
Hollander
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 23,949
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Don't forget during the war Vito played both sides the allied forces as well as Mussolini. Italian bandit Salvatore Giuliano posing with Italian-born American mafioso Vito Genovese wearing a US army uniform. Sicily, 1940s . (Photo by Enzo Brai/Mondadori via Getty Images) https://www.gettyimages.no/detail/n...-born-news-photo/186175230?adppopup=true
Last edited by Hollander; 02/02/24 09:14 AM.
"The king is dead, long live the king!"
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: NYMafia]
#1082209
02/03/24 06:12 PM
02/03/24 06:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 23,949
Hollander
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Joined: Mar 2016
Posts: 23,949
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Mussolini's Fascist Party was interesting although Benito hated the influence the Mafia had and drove many to the US in the 20s, some former blackshirts became very powerful men in post-war Italy. Thats very correct, Hollander. In fact, Mussolini became a major catalyst for the Mafia's mass exodus from Sicily and immigration to America. Yes Mussolini was like a Ceasar LOL..
"The king is dead, long live the king!"
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Re: Lucky Luciano vs. Vito Genovese
[Re: Hollander]
#1082228
02/04/24 03:57 AM
02/04/24 03:57 AM
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Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
NYMafia
OP
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OP
Joined: Sep 2019
Posts: 9,328
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Mussolini's Fascist Party was interesting although Benito hated the influence the Mafia had and drove many to the US in the 20s, some former blackshirts became very powerful men in post-war Italy. Thats very correct, Hollander. In fact, Mussolini became a major catalyst for the Mafia's mass exodus from Sicily and immigration to America. Yes Mussolini was like a Ceasar LOL.. He should have never sided with Hitler. That was his downfall. He would have stayed popular with the Italian people had he not. He ruined himself.
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