I missed my transport and I have to wait for another hour, and so I thought about writing this....

Im speaking about the US and so back in the days and even today, many researchers and ordinary posters believe that the Italian Mafia was the FIRST OC group which took corruption, labor racketeering, gambling, extortion, prostitution, loan sharking etc. on completely another level, especially in the U.S.

Well, I personally dont think that was the case at all because of various reasons.

First of all, the original Irish mob which was "born" after the Civil War, was probably the first crime group with national connections all over the country. The huge number of saloons, brothels and hotels which they owned all around the country from the late 19th century until the late 1910s, simply cannot be compared to the smaller number of joints which the Italian Mafia controlled from the 1920s until the 1980s.

Believe it or not, by 1903, only in Chicago, the Irish Mob controlled between 800 and 900 joints in which gambling and prostitution was an everyday thing. So if we include all of the other Irish operators from all around the country at the time, you do the math and witness the biggest OC group during those days. Besides the rackets, they also controlled all politics, labor unions and also many legitime enterprises.

At the end of 19th century the local Mafiosi from the southern part of Italy, including Sicily, didnt have much to do except for extortion, counterfeit and local corruption, while the criminal immigrants who reached the U.S. had much to learn from the already established Irish criminal underworld. For example, the Irish Mob was probably the first OC group which created some type of underworld commission, just to assure everyone was in good business relations and also to respect their own areas.

So.....same as the Italian Mafia which later ruled America's underworld, PREVIOUSLY the Irish Mob also had the same type of alliances with other ethnic crime groups such as the Jews, Germans, Italians and African-Americans, but with the Irish at the top.

Later I think even their "cousins" back in Sicily learned from their Americanized relatives regarding the forming of a national commission.

Many Italian, Jewish and German crime leaders depended on the Irish mob and their connections in the political world, including their rackets. Many known Italian and Jewish crime leaders started as precinct captains or aldermen and ward representatives for the Irish political crime bosses, or as union officials and enforcers, again for the old Irish mob. Some Italian criminals even changed their names to sound more Irish, obviously because the Irish society was on a higher level at the time then the Italians.

The gambling racket which was already a huge income for the Irish mob for over 30 years, it was taken seriously by the whole Italian criminal element much later or sometime around the late 1910s or during the 1920s. Again many Italian criminals learned the racket either from the old Irish operators or their Jewish accomplices. In fact, both Irish and Jewish criminals also probably introduced the US Italian Mafia to the prostitution racket, an illegal operation which was allegedly forbidden by the old Italian Mafiosi.

And as for the narcotics trade...both prostitution and the narcotics trade usually goes together and many saloons and brothels from that time period also provided that pleasure in the form of opium. So by the 1920s many Italian criminals also learned the dope trade from their Irish mentors. In fact, the African-American criminal element was also involved in the dope trade before the Italians.

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In the end, my point is that the Italian Mafia in the U.S. learned most of the lucrative rackets from other ethnic criminal organizations such as the former Irish Mob. Even though by Prohibition most of the old Irish racketeers were gone, some still remained as associates of the Italian Mafia who played vital roles in many criminal adventures. So in plane words, the Italian criminal element simply switched places with their Irish "predecessors".

In plane words, the Irish started first but the Italians lasted longer. But regarding the question on what happened to the old Irish Mob...well I believe most of them simply went up in the levels of society, while the Italians took over the whole underworld and lasted longer mainly because of their criminal traditions and with the "rebirth" of their membership and hierarchy, although whether its good or bad to stay longer in the criminal underworld, its still for you to decide.

Whats your opinion?

Cheers

I partially agree, but I also very much disagree with you on this point TD.

Although the Irish had immigrated to this country before the Italians, (and the Jews too for that matter,) and naturally involved themselves in crime, politics, business, and other facets of American life, they were not the "teachers" nor the "consultants" to the Italians...In fact, IMO, they were very far from it.

You gotta remember too, that be they Irish, Italian, Jewish, etc., what was truly considered and viewed as the beginnings of "organized crime" in this country only developed with the advent of Prohibition in 1920. Before that, although the Irish were already better established here, having arrived several decades earlier, before bootlegging arrived they only scratched out a living in crime. ALL the gangs really "learned" the liquor trade together, at the same time. The one advantage the Irish had was that many of them had already joined the local police departments and local politics. But thats all.

Back in their respective countries, the English, Irish, Jewish and any other ethnicity you can think of, never had the well-oiled, long established, "machine" that the Southern Italians and Sicilians had, whose "legacy" to a criminal "brotherhood" went back to almost antiquity.

And back in Italy, for many years the Mafia regularly engaged variously in such lucrative rackets as robberies, thefts of cattle and other livestock (a very lucrative activity,) extortions, shakedowns of businesses, usury, gambling (Italian lottery, cards, etc,) cigarette smuggling, counterfeit currencies, controlling and maintaining monopolies over the local waterfronts and agriculture, land fraud and embezzlement, political corruption, police corruption, etc....

You get my point, right?

With their migration to the U.S. (and later to other counties for that matter like Australia, Canada, Argentina, other South American locales as well as France, England, etc.) they expanded their tentacles even further.

In the U.S. they continued their operations in the same vein, the Italian lottery, shylocking, counterfeiting U.S. coins, thefts, strong-arm extortions and the weekly "pizzo" from shopkeepers, slowly infiltrating the docks and other industries, the narcotics trade on a small scale, etc.

But, admittedly, all of these activities paled in comparison to what became their most profitable racket of all...and the one that gave ALL of them, Irish, Jewish and Italian alike, the biggest foothold into American life and commerce - alcohol bootlegging!

Bootlegging, coupled with their Roman-legion like design and power structure, is what eventually catapulted Cosa Nostra to heights never before seen in this country or anywhere else for that matter. They became monolithic in their power and influence....eclipsing all other criminal ethnic groups, Irish or otherwise.

And with their eventual infiltration and ironclad control over almost the entire American labor movement, it was now all over. They had become a "second government."
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If we're talking about the actual Italian Mafia like in Italy, they're laundering money on Bitcoin platforms today, so yes in that regard I'd say they're very much sophisticated and up with the times.

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With the possible exception of the ancient Chinese Triads and Japanese Yakuza, I respectfully submit that the Italians were the forerunners of truly "structured" and organized racket crime.

Everybody are laundering money using Bitcoin.

Yes that's true but I find the Italian Mafia to be more surprising because seemingly everyone says they're lagging behind.

Ok I understand your position and already confirmed it in my previous post, but let me explain with examples and details some of your opinions. Also dont forget that Im talkin about the "beginning of time" over here and on who started what and when.

Btw, I love these civilized convos



Lets look at the situation like this...legendary Italian crime boss Jim Colosimo started as streetsweeper, shoe shiner, newspaper boy and also as a water carrier at the railroads, but later he was recruited by Irish political crime bosses and worked as their precinct captain. SO these guys took Colosimo out of the streets and taught him about political corruption and above all, prostitution. This was during the late 19th century and during those days the Italians were quite far away from being involved in the hooker business. In fact, all of the joints which Colosimo visited on daily basis to take his bosses' cut, were already owned by the Irish Mob. Make some research on Kenna and Coughlin and you'll get what Im saying.

Second example....Johnny Powers...member of the old Irish Mob who got his political positions through violence and intimidation. During those days the Italian bloc was headed by prominent Italian faces such as Sabatino Falone, Raffaele DeBartolo, Antonio Greco, Vincenzo Pacelli, Giuseppe Spingola and others, but they all answered to the alderman for the whole ward John Powers. Powers was also connected to the Italian bloc from the 17th Ward by constantly sponsoring their newspaper known as La Democrazia which in turn was operated by Mafai political bosses such as Steve Malato and Onofrio Serritella. As I previously said, the Italians simply switched places with the old Irish Mob, but lets go further shall we...

Third example....In 1913 Mafia member Paul Labriola, was arrested regarding an assault with a deadly weapon and since Labriola worked as bailiff in the Municipal court, Alderman John Powers rescued Labriola from imprisonment.

And last example, Mafia boss Tony D'Andrea was also a protege of John Powers but in 1919 they became opponents. Proof for the previous connection between D’Andrea and Powers was that some of D’Andrea’s associates like Paul Labriola decided to stay with Powers and turned their backs to the boss. This is a proof regarding the huge power of the old Anglo-Saxon political crime bosses that was still present even during those days. So during this period, few of D’Andrea’s precinct captains in the 19th Ward were Peter Granata from the third precinct, Pete Fosco from the fifth precinct, Louis Battaglia from the 6th precinct, Benjamin Geldrman from the 24th precinct and Victor Tortoriello from the 26th precinct, and in the end D'Andrea decided to run again for alderman against Powers and that was the beginning of the so-called “Aldermen's Wars”, during which D'Andrea ended up dead.

This means the "younger" generation was taking over from the old one.



"scratched out a living in crime" <----- I completely disagree with this since ill give you another example...In 1919 James Marzano and his lieutenant Diamond Joe Esposito challenged Alderman Johnny Powers and story goes that the old time Irish boss spent $25,000 ($444,000 in today’s money) to defeat his Italian opponent and he succeeded in doing it. This obviously means that the Irish crime bloc was still richer than the Italians at the time.

Regarding "ALL the gangs really "learned" the liquor trade together, at the same time"...sorry bud but I disagree again. You ever heard that Prohibition was established one or two years earlier (I dont remember) in St. Louis and later around the rest of the country? And guess who were the first ethnic gangs which were involved in the business?! The Irish. Why? Because they were the first main guys in the underworld. In fact, Capone's main killers Willie Heeney and Johnny Moore aka Claude Maddox came from that area and connected Capone to killers from all around the country. How did they know all of the guys? Obviously because previously the irish mob also had national connections.



I get your point bud but first of all, some of the rackets that you mentioned didnt exist in Italy during the late 19th century or the at the beginning of the 20th. Im talking about whole parts of cities being filled with saloons, brothels, restaurants and all types of joints and all of that being controlled by only one organization during a certain time period. Im talking about having a huge building next to City Hall, filled with hookers and gambling operations.

Extortion? Every criminal organization since the "stone age" was involved in the racket and believe me it wasnt invented by the Italians.



And I completely agree with you on this since I previously said the same thing. Yes, the Italian Mafia lasted/lasts longer because of their unique internal organization.

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@Liggio my man, Im talking about who started what and when around 100 years ago lol

They wouldn't be on top of organized crime for 50+ years if they are lagging behind.

Then I agree with NYM's reply: With the possible exception of the ancient Chinese Triads and Japanese Yakuza, I respectfully submit that the Italians were the forerunners of truly "structured" and organized racket crime.

Everywhere I look, I can really only find the Triads and Yakuza being on the same level. True there has always been organized gangs of nearly all stripes since the days of old, but not with rigid structures and rituals complete with lines of leadership succession stretching generations.

@Liggio Im talking about the U.S. When did the Yakuza or Chinese Triads ruled all of America's underworld?

Never. Then the Italian Mafia would be the only ones, with numerous powerful associates of other ethnic backgrounds.

Thats right but my argument is that those same "powerful associates of other ethnic backgrounds" first started that shit around the states, which was later inherited by the Italian criminal element. Read my second response to "@NYM.

Italians were and still are most powerful organized crime group in US, but they never "ruled" it. Its impossible to have complete control of crime in US. In Italy , yes , Russians in Russia yes, but in US its impossible.

Thats another point of view which I also agree with. Although again, my point is that the Italian criminal element (being more violent) took over everything which was previously ruled by other ethnic groups for many decades. Take the policy/numbers racket for example...the African-American criminal element owned it since the late 19th century.....but when the Italians took it over, it lasted for about 30 or 40 years and that was it. Again, Im talking about the US.

Dope topic, TD ( see what I did there)
I can see this blowing up because they're aome inaccurate narratives being laid out. The first organized crime outfits, globally, were pirates. They raided towns for plunder, extorted them for tribute, for protection, and intercepted and hijacked cargo transport. Captain Kidd lived on Wall St at one time. The NYC waterfront at the time was on the E. River side, in the 4th Ward, this lead to a proliferation of a criminal underworld to serve the needs of the pirates. The Patsy Conroys controlled E. River traffic and would often waylay river travellers, and river cargo traffic. From River pirates, organized crime made its way inland to the 6th Ward and the Five Points. The order of immigration to NYC was Dutch, English, German(Hessians), Irish, Italian. The Irish began immigrating in 1840 with the onset of the Potato famine in Ireland. As a result, nativist groups of American born men, resentful of competition for work from the newly arrived Irish, organized into gangs with political agendas to oppress immigration. This led to frequent gang fights which evolved into riots such as the Astor Pl riot in 1849 and the Bayard St riot between the Dead Rabbits and Bowery Boys in 1857 as depicted in Gangs of NY. Tammany Hall's involvement came when politicians realized the newly arrived immigrants value as future voters. Now, Tammany Hall begins recruiting political muscle to persuade ignorant immigrants into joining their political agendas. This is how gangs transitioned into organized crime outfits leading first to The Syndicate and then to the American Mafia. Pegleg Lonergan and the Irish White Hand controlled the Brooklyn waterfront until Frankie Yale had Lonergan killed and wrested control to the Black Hand Italians. Then, Prohibition led to an incredible proliferation of opportunity for these outfits, who now generated enormous profits sufficient to bribe and buy the Tammany Hall politicians into supporting their criminal enterprises. The rest is history.

Italians also brought that rigid top-down structure built to last decades to the table, other groups simply came together for common interests and purposes and then disbanded. But no the Italians weren't the first to do organized crime in the US. That's my view, though I could be a little off.

Wasnt there a story something like the Christmas Day massacre??

I agree with everything you said, they took over them and made them more sophisticated. But no one ruled all of America's underworld.

And if you want to go to the days of Noah lol......

During the 1850's Chicago's racketeer Roger Plant and his local were located near the Chicago River’s entrance into Lake Michigan and as a result, the streets that surrounded the local, were in muddy conditions. Because of that, Roger Plant “talked” to some of the City’s officials and they decided to raise the foundations of the buildings along the newly upgraded roadways. The end resulted with the creation of underground passages, streets, and underground rooms. Legend goes that the many underground passages and rooms that existed beneath the joint gave the birth to the term "UNDERWORLD" as a description of the society that engaged in criminal activity. Those same underground tunnels were later used also during Prohibition and some exist even today.

+1

So would you agree with the part where I said that many other groups came together for common criminal interests then disbanded or evaporated? LCN Families were meant to last forever and ever. Of course many went extinct due to lack of recruiting or law enforcement pressure and infighting, but I think it's still a good point..

I completely agree on everything you just said and I also said the same thing that LCN lasts longer for the reasons you already mentioned, but ill add another one and that is, many old Irish bosses died in their home beds who previously went up in the American society, especially their families who in turn inherited all of the cash and political contacts. Take the Kennedys for example...or take the current Chicago mob, meaning more than 20 years ago they already began infiltrating many legit enterprises and so now their sons and daughters inherited everything. And here we are, blaming them for their last names and making charts and shit lol

I can't speak for everyone, but not all of us are judging. Some of us, myself included, are just fascinated and take no moral stance whatsoever. As for the Irish brand of organized crime you mentioned, I feel like once you work your way up in society and legitimize everything, you no longer count because you're no longer outlaws. You can still be scumbags, but legally scumbags. That's probably the only issue I take with the government and big business are all gangsters argument. Yes, I absolutely agree. But for this subject matter we're talking about crime groups that still operate on the opposite side of the law.

Thats another point of view which should be taken quite seriously, and obviously the Italian criminal element wins regarding the underworld. BUT who FIRST started the SOPHISTICED rackets and who INHERITED what in AMERICA, well I still believe thats another story.

Fabulous explanation and the correct chronology CNote, my compliments to you!

Thats largely correct Liggio. Only the Italians had the innate ability, born of their ancient history and cultural background, to organize into the rigid hierarchy structure as they did, which they brought along with them when they immigrated to America.

They rest of ALL the other ethnic "gangs," the Irish, English, German, Jewish, Greeks, etc., etc. (which, in essence, was all they were, regardless of their size,) just came together out of common interests, poverty and happenstance. For the Sicilians, Calabrese and Napolitani, who already had the ancient brotherhoods of the Mafia, Societa' Onorata and Camorra, resepctively, it was an inbred way of life, a way of existence, since almost antiquity.

TD, You gave me a lot to respond to, lol. Thats why I'm answering the shorter comments first....But I will read, digest and then provide you my opinions on your statements later on, ok buddy.

I agree. All of these gangs were organized and came together for "opportunities" at the time, but either disputed or were knocked out of the box, within a relatively short period of time.

Cosa Nostra was meant to perpetuate itself, the same as its done for hundreds of years already, on multiple continents.

Lol take your time bro, its a simple but at the same time productive discussion

For sure. Very interesting and engaging for everyone here.