Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Originally Posted by Liggio
How was Loverde involved in the Masseria hit if he was killed in 1930?
I made a mistake on that one since I was thinking about another individual and forgot to edit my previous post. Tnx for the correction. I dont really remember but i think it mightve been Pollaccia instead of Loverde or something like that....ill check it out
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Love the FBI documents TD, many thanks for sharing them
Interesting to note or in other words, what we can learn from the situation regarding Loverde and Capone is that even though Loverde was considered the official rep for the Chi family in 1930, STILL or by the end of the day Capone was considered the real power. This info comes from Nick Gentile, old time member of the Mafia and also former representative whose life was once saved by Capone himself. So my point is that in some cases even though some member held the official spot, still there was someone more powerful then him and had all of the respect. In one of the previous threads we talked about the boss of bosses position being officially nixed after 1931, BUT in terms of power there was always someone during certain time periods who was more powerful then the rest of the reps on the commission and controlled most of the votes in his own favour. Sometimes there were alliances of two or three bosses who controlled the whole commission etc.
Excellent points here. That info was really telling
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Originally Posted by Liggio
How was Loverde involved in the Masseria hit if he was killed in 1930?
Sorry, I just checked. Loverde was killed in November 1931. Sometimes I should stop talking off the top of my head. Again, tnx for the correction.
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Two_Times
Originally Posted by Toodoped
Originally Posted by Jimmy_Two_Times
Love the FBI documents TD, many thanks for sharing them
Interesting to note or in other words, what we can learn from the situation regarding Loverde and Capone is that even though Loverde was considered the official rep for the Chi family in 1930, STILL or by the end of the day Capone was considered the real power. This info comes from Nick Gentile, old time member of the Mafia and also former representative whose life was once saved by Capone himself. So my point is that in some cases even though some member held the official spot, still there was someone more powerful then him and had all of the respect. In one of the previous threads we talked about the boss of bosses position being officially nixed after 1931, BUT in terms of power there was always someone during certain time periods who was more powerful then the rest of the reps on the commission and controlled most of the votes in his own favour. Sometimes there were alliances of two or three bosses who controlled the whole commission etc.
Excellent points here. That info was really telling
I agree since sometimes we forget that we are talking about guys who never reached second grade and so it was quite tough for many of those same street individuals to follow all official rules.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Heres one Tribune report from 1935 regarding the situation after the murder of Dutch Shultz..."Charles Siegel" is probably Benjamin Siegel and "Louis Buckhouse" mightve been Louis Buchalter. John Torrio is also mentioned as possible accomplice in the Shultz murder, including Luciano who in turn was allegedly mentioned by Shultz as "the boss" during his pre-death unconscious ramblings, since when the cops asked the dying Shultz on who shot him, the victim allegedly replied "the boss himself". This was all speculation made by investigators at the time.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Originally Posted by Hollander
Originally Posted by Toodoped
Originally Posted by Hollander
I believe the ties between Genovese family and the Outfit goes even back to the Five Points gang.
Thats probably right.
IMO Johnny Torrio is still underrated in the history of American Organized Crime/
I agree @H. After his adventures in Chicago, he probably went with Luciano, Adonis and the Genovese family, including with some of the old non-Ital leaders which in fact was a sign of the "Chicago way". And if you ask me, the best example regarding Torrio's respectability and stature is when he arrived in Chicago as peacemaker regarding the conflict between Ricca and Accardo (1954 i think).
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Hollander]
#1076226 12/07/2306:08 AM12/07/2306:08 AM
Johnny Torrio, and to a lesser degree Paul Kelly, are the architects of modern organized crime in America. The James St gang, out of Vinegar Hill, Brooklyn, came to prominence utilizing Kelly's connections at Tammany Hall. Ironically, the Democratic political machine that dominated NYC politics from before the American Civil War, provided the political protection for the gangs political violence. Torrio, a boxing promoter met Kelly, a boxer who once fought Monk Eastman to settle ownership of the 5 Points, at local fights between the 2 boroughs after the City of New York formed in 1898 and the Willie B (Williamsburg Bridge) opened connecting the Lower East Side to Brooklyn. It was through this union, that Torrio, Yale, Vanella, Capone, Masseria, Luciano, Lansky, Siegal connected with each other. Evolving to eventually form the foundation from which rose the edifice of modern organized crime and the American Mafia. Torrio, Iole, Vanella, Capone all hung out in my neighborhood and Al was married at St Mary Shining Star of the Sea in Court St., ten blocks from my apartment in Carroll Gardens. Capone lived at 38 Garfield Pl between 4th and 5th Aves. He received the scars on his face very close to this location in the winter of 1918, in an altercation with Frank Gallucio after Capone insulted his older sister..
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Liggio]
#1076237 12/07/2307:55 AM12/07/2307:55 AM
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Originally Posted by Sullycantwell
Originally Posted by blueracing347
That's interesting information. I've never heard of 30-40 leaders of the old mafia being killed after Maranzano. Good stuff TD. Thank you.
This didn’t actually happen. Only a couple people were killed that day and maybe 2 were tied with Maranzano.
We already said that theres no credibility regarding that claim, "Judge Stoner-field". Wow you're so smart by copying our stuff. Damn you simply showed up out of nowhere when someone said to me "You are quite the historian" lol. Im gald that Im still a thorn in your eyes and I hope you go blind because of it lol You and your friends will never discredit me or my peeps from around here! Please enlighten us with one of your boring articles and vids from 2 years ago with only 50 views. And also say "hi" to Shiny face for me.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Hollander]
#1076246 12/07/2310:55 AM12/07/2310:55 AM
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Heres one convo between one Philly guy and one NY associate regarding what the media and government did to many alleged "innocent" mobsters and so they mentioned both Luciano and Capone as prime examples from the old days...and I think they were right, especially about Capone Lol
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Hollander]
#1076249 12/07/2311:55 AM12/07/2311:55 AM
Love the FBI documents TD, many thanks for sharing them
Again, you're always welcome bud
Interesting to note or in other words, what we can learn from the situation regarding Loverde and Capone is that even though Loverde was considered the official rep for the Chi family in 1930, STILL or by the end of the day Capone was considered the real power. This info comes from Nick Gentile, old time member of the Mafia and also former representative whose life was once saved by Capone himself. So my point is that in some cases even though some member held the official spot, still there was someone more powerful then him and had all of the respect. In one of the previous threads we talked about the boss of bosses position being officially nixed after 1931, BUT in terms of power there was always someone during certain time periods who was more powerful then the rest of the reps on the commission and controlled most of the votes in his own favour. Sometimes there were alliances of two or three bosses who controlled the whole commission etc.
Money and manpower talks and Capone had that
Last edited by streetbossliborio; 12/07/2306:53 PM.
Heres one convo between one Philly guy and one NY associate regarding what the media and government did to many alleged "innocent" mobsters and so they mentioned both Luciano and Capone as prime examples from the old days...and I think they were right, especially about Capone Lol
Great read thanks. They certainly were right. Capone as iconic as any ex president and will go down in history as much as any. How crazy is that. Who were the 2 people talking?
Last edited by streetbossliborio; 12/07/2306:58 PM.
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Originally Posted by streetbossliborio
Originally Posted by Toodoped
Heres one convo between one Philly guy and one NY associate regarding what the media and government did to many alleged "innocent" mobsters and so they mentioned both Luciano and Capone as prime examples from the old days...and I think they were right, especially about Capone Lol
Great read thanks. They certainly were right. Capone as iconic as any ex president and will go down in history as much as any. How crazy is that. Who were the 2 people talking?
You're welcome pal.
The two guy talking were Mario Maggio (part owner of the Maggio Cheese Co. in Philly) and Lou Travaglini from NY who was also employed at Maggio's company.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Toodoped]
#1076360 12/08/2306:55 AM12/08/2306:55 AM
That's interesting information. I've never heard of 30-40 leaders of the old mafia being killed after Maranzano. Good stuff TD. Thank you.
This didn’t actually happen. Only a couple people were killed that day and maybe 2 were tied with Maranzano.
We already said that theres no credibility regarding that claim, "Judge Stoner-field". Wow you're so smart by copying our stuff. Damn you simply showed up out of nowhere when someone said to me "You are quite the historian" lol. Im gald that Im still a thorn in your eyes and I hope you go blind because of it lol You and your friends will never discredit me or my peeps from around here! Please enlighten us with one of your boring articles and vids from 2 years ago with only 50 views. And also say "hi" to Shiny face for me.
Just commenting as I was reading the thread. And you’re still mad you got kicked off BHF? Once again I’m not any of the main posters on there but whatever makes you feel better bud. You’re the main reason that this forum will never be as good as BHF. I wasn’t even talking to u yet you still are insulting me, why so insecure? Are u insecure because you made up a hierarchy based on non-member sources and circumstantial evidence?
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Originally Posted by Sullycantwell
Originally Posted by Toodoped
Originally Posted by Sullycantwell
Originally Posted by blueracing347
That's interesting information. I've never heard of 30-40 leaders of the old mafia being killed after Maranzano. Good stuff TD. Thank you.
This didn’t actually happen. Only a couple people were killed that day and maybe 2 were tied with Maranzano.
We already said that theres no credibility regarding that claim, "Judge Stoner-field". Wow you're so smart by copying our stuff. Damn you simply showed up out of nowhere when someone said to me "You are quite the historian" lol. Im gald that Im still a thorn in your eyes and I hope you go blind because of it lol You and your friends will never discredit me or my peeps from around here! Please enlighten us with one of your boring articles and vids from 2 years ago with only 50 views. And also say "hi" to Shiny face for me.
Just commenting as I was reading the thread. And you’re still mad you got kicked off BHF? Once again I’m not any of the main posters on there but whatever makes you feel better bud. You’re the main reason that this forum will never be as good as BHF. I wasn’t even talking to u yet you still are insulting me, why so insecure? Are u insecure because you made up a hierarchy based on non-member sources and circumstantial evidence?
Im very insecure if you had your heroin shot this morning lol
Originally Posted by Toodoped
Originally Posted by streetbossliborio
Originally Posted by Toodoped
Heres one convo between one Philly guy and one NY associate regarding what the media and government did to many alleged "innocent" mobsters and so they mentioned both Luciano and Capone as prime examples from the old days...and I think they were right, especially about Capone Lol
Great read thanks. They certainly were right. Capone as iconic as any ex president and will go down in history as much as any. How crazy is that. Who were the 2 people talking?
You're welcome pal.
The two guy talking were Mario Maggio (part owner of the Maggio Cheese Co. in Philly) and Lou Travaglini from NY who was also employed at Maggio's company.
In addition, they were previously talking about Profaci and also regarding the Apalachin meeting.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Hollander]
#1076370 12/08/2307:24 AM12/08/2307:24 AM
Johnny Torrio, and to a lesser degree Paul Kelly, are the architects of modern organized crime in America. The James St gang, out of Vinegar Hill, Brooklyn, came to prominence utilizing Kelly's connections at Tammany Hall. Ironically, the Democratic political machine that dominated NYC politics from before the American Civil War, provided the political protection for the gangs political violence. Torrio, a boxing promoter met Kelly, a boxer who once fought Monk Eastman to settle ownership of the 5 Points, at local fights between the 2 boroughs after the City of New York formed in 1898 and the Willie B (Williamsburg Bridge) opened connecting the Lower East Side to Brooklyn. It was through this union, that Torrio, Yale, Vanella, Capone, Masseria, Luciano, Lansky, Siegal connected with each other. Evolving to eventually form the foundation from which rose the edifice of modern organized crime and the American Mafia. Torrio, Iole, Vanella, Capone all hung out in my neighborhood and Al was married at St Mary Shining Star of the Sea in Court St., ten blocks from my apartment in Carroll Gardens. Capone lived at 38 Garfield Pl between 4th and 5th Aves. He received the scars on his face very close to this location in the winter of 1918, in an altercation with Frank Gallucio after Capone insulted his older sister..
Interesting I read Andy Warhol bought the former HQ of Paul Kelly's gang in 1970.
"The king is dead, long live the king!"
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Hollander]
#1076466 12/09/2306:21 AM12/09/2306:21 AM
Johnny Torrio, and to a lesser degree Paul Kelly, are the architects of modern organized crime in America. The James St gang, out of Vinegar Hill, Brooklyn, came to prominence utilizing Kelly's connections at Tammany Hall. Ironically, the Democratic political machine that dominated NYC politics from before the American Civil War, provided the political protection for the gangs political violence. Torrio, a boxing promoter met Kelly, a boxer who once fought Monk Eastman to settle ownership of the 5 Points, at local fights between the 2 boroughs after the City of New York formed in 1898 and the Willie B (Williamsburg Bridge) opened connecting the Lower East Side to Brooklyn. It was through this union, that Torrio, Yale, Vanella, Capone, Masseria, Luciano, Lansky, Siegal connected with each other. Evolving to eventually form the foundation from which rose the edifice of modern organized crime and the American Mafia. Torrio, Iole, Vanella, Capone all hung out in my neighborhood and Al was married at St Mary Shining Star of the Sea in Court St., ten blocks from my apartment in Carroll Gardens. Capone lived at 38 Garfield Pl between 4th and 5th Aves. He received the scars on his face very close to this location in the winter of 1918, in an altercation with Frank Gallucio after Capone insulted his older sister..
Interesting I read Andy Warhol bought the former HQ of Paul Kelly's gang in 1970.
It is a fascinating aspect of the American Mafia, its origins, and the transition from a street gang into the foundations of an enterprise that would impact American society profoundly for decades to come. Ironically, it was through interactions with Tammany Hall that the reigns of power to commit crime in the name of politics would be sanctioned by the establishment. Once that happened, the politicians were blackmailed and bribed into ignoring the many acts of crime perpetrated now for power and money. Attached is an image of Robert Vanella's funeral home at 29 Madison St. in Manhattan, which is open and operating to this very day. Also attached is a newspaper add placed by Robert (Roxie) Vanella searching for work. The James St Gang origins trace back to the Patsy Conroys, a gang of pirates that operated off of Corlears Hook on the East River and hijack river traffic between the end of the American Civil War and the turn of the twentieth century a hundred years ago. Attached is an image of the Patsy Conroys under the boardwalks of Corlears Hook. Pirates are the first example of organized crime in history. I stand corrected on my previous post, James St wasn't in Brooklyn but instead, in the the Fourth Ward and Corlears Hook area.
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Hollander]
#1076467 12/09/2306:28 AM12/09/2306:28 AM
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Vanella returned to NY sometime around the early 1920's I think, meaning he obviously wasnt involved much in the conflicts during Prohibition, although he probably killed more than few people previously for Colosimo and Torrio.
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Toodoped]
#1076489 12/09/2309:09 AM12/09/2309:09 AM
Vanella returned to NY sometime around the early 1920's I think, meaning he obviously wasnt involved much in the conflicts during Prohibition, although he probably killed more than few people previously for Colosimo and Torrio.
Vanella is somewhat of a unique Italian surname. He may have been related, as a father, uncle, brother, cousin, to Antonio (Tony) Vanella, a notorious and deadly mafioso who hailed from Downtown New York and was active throughout the 1920s-1960s era.
Underboss
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,635 Underground
Originally Posted by NYMafia
Originally Posted by Toodoped
Vanella returned to NY sometime around the early 1920's I think, meaning he obviously wasnt involved much in the conflicts during Prohibition, although he probably killed more than few people previously for Colosimo and Torrio.
Vanella is somewhat of a unique Italian surname. He may have been related, as a father, uncle, brother, cousin, to Antonio (Tony) Vanella, a notorious and deadly mafioso who hailed from Downtown New York and was active throughout the 1920s-1960s era.
Im not sure but I think that you and I already started this convo in the past but never made a final point. Can you dig up something about it?
He who can never endure the bad will never see the good
Re: Lucky Luciano in Naples
[Re: Hollander]
#1076492 12/09/2309:15 AM12/09/2309:15 AM
![[Linked Image]](https://i.ibb.co/GVt7tNK/loverde-first.png)
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