A "Mafia" type organization, or more appropriately, a "mafioso" mentality, is extremely common to Southern Italians born back in their homeland. Whether or not they choose to go into the criminal life, per se. It is a mentality, unique to Italy/Sicily, instilled in them since they were children by their parents and blood family.

Even American-born Italian street guys who were raised 'correctly' by their elders can exhibit a 'mafioso' styled mentality that carries them through life. Whether they choose to be legitimate businessmen or take to the streets to make a living.

Because, truth be told, a 'true' mafioso is born, not made!
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Here's the second half of my answer. lol. (I forgot to write it).

That said, if a bunch of fellas got together. And they had the sufficient amount of balls and brains and moxie, they could create a Mafia-styled crew, as good, if not better, than a so-called formally recognized LCN "Family." (especially nowadays in 2023 where all these crews as screwed up and are running on fumes.)

Thanks NY Mafia, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this matter.

You have answered my question despite you not remembering the second half lol.
I may not have been clear enough when I raised this question. I didn't mean just any crew but descendants of of Italians from southern Italy or Sicily.
You touched on three important factors, how they were raised, blood relation and their state of mind.

In Ontario police also sees an influx of newer immigrant Sicilian and Italian mafiosi.

You're very welcome Ciment. I'm glad I was able to answer your questions properly.

Anyone have a take on the relationship between the Rizzuto clan and the Caruana-Cuntrera?
Like, today? I feel like there was some kinda... split? They didn't seem to be in lockstep after the late 90s...

In September 2010 Agostino Cuntrera, believed to be the new boss of the Rizzuto family, was killed in Montreal together with his associate Liborio Sciascia, probably in the context of a conflict within Canadian crime [33] [34] .

One of the last prominent members of the organization, Vito Triassi died in February 2019 in Tenerife . Triassi was considered the colonel of the criminal group in Ostia , however, since the beginning of 2010 , the Cuntrera-Caruana family had lost its historical presence in the city and the former boss decided to move to Spain.

@CabriniGreen I personally don't believe the Cuntrera-Caruana will just fade away you know they have been involved for over 60 years.

Is anyone familiar with the Mila Barberi and the Angelo Musitano shootings ?

I am perplexed on the Barberi murder/attempted murder Saverio Serrano whom police say he was the intended target and that of Angelo Musitano shot dead in his driveway. We all know Musitano sided with the Ruzzuto's and that Saverio Serrano is the son of Diego Serrano who was arrested along with Ursino in the Ophoenix police raid. The police identified two men believed to have been directly involved in both murders. How can that be if both victims are rivals or am I wrong to believe that ? Furthermore Cudmore suspected to be involved in both murders, joins his friend Ranieri (whom the Rizzuto's replaced Fernandez with in Toronto) , then both Ranieri and Cudmore get killed in Mexico. Does anyone have a good explanation ?

I know Mila was an innocent victim, But Barberi is well known surname in 'Ndrangheta.

Some of this can be cleared up because a lot has come out from the trial of the only person arrested and charged in relation to these murders.

The same hit team was used in both murders but police haven't connected the victims or intended victims to eachother meaning it's possible that the only connection between them is whoever wanted them dead used the same hit team. Saverio Serrano might not have been the intended target either. His brother Francesco Serrano had been using the car in the weeks leading up to the shooting and had a driver since his license was suspended. Francesco Serrano was the only son of Diego Serrano that was known to police. I think you're wrong that Diego Serrano and Angelo Musitano or their families were rivals I haven't seen that said anywhere.

I'll disagree with the notion Daniele Ranieri was placed by the Rizzutos to replace Juan Fernandez. He worked under Juan Fernandez and continued committing crimes after his deportation and murder. Daniele Ranieri would be one of those guys I mentioned earlier as being labelled a Rizzuto guy but his formal affiliations are unknown and probably different.

Dom Violi was recorded saying Angelo Musitano's murder was a message to Pat Musitano and in another recording Dom Violi is heard saying the Musitanos decided to support the Cuntrera family so they were added as targets. We don't exactly know who the Cuntreras had a dispute with but based on Dom Violi's comments it wasn't him.

In weeks and months leading to these murders Michael Cudmore bought GPS trackers that they used and the days they were bought Daniel Tomassetti placed calls to Mexico. The police's theory is they were to Daniele Ranieri who fled there in 2016. Police also tracked calls to New York and to Tony Iavarone and his son Joseph Iavarone. They're the brother and nephew of Albert Iavarone who was killed in 2018 most likely as retaliation for Angelo Musitano's murder. Albert Iavarone was one of the men made in Los Angeles in 2017.

The best explanation is the Musitanos supported the Cuntreras who had some type of problem with the Iavarone brothers. To go another step farther this was actually dispute between the Cuntreras and Gambino Family. I say this because Albert Iavarone was probably made into the Los Angeles Family by Tommaso Gambino as a favor to the Gambino Family or into the Gambino Family and for some reason it happened in Los Angeles.

Michael Cudmore and Daniele Ranieri's murders in Mexico was probably just tying up loose ends. Daniel Tomassetti is probably dead too.

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/...7de1918-8c91-5a85-8441-24d5fe6d3b29.html

Toronto Star

Police said Ranieri took over the Rizzuto operation in Toronto in 2013 after the murder of his former associate, Juan Ramon Fernandez, also known in the GTA as “Joey Bravo.”

Whether it is Saverio or Francesco Serrano it is still a son of Diego the intended target. Musitano's had it in for the Violi's/ Luppino's . Murdock the hitman for the Musitano's talked about it in the past . Pat Musitano probably felt more empowered to strike now, having the backing of Montreal and possibly of the Cuntrera's also. So this conflict was most likely between these groups I just mentioned.
Diego did business with the Ndrangheta not the Musitano clan. This is why I placed Diego in the rival group. It's the Diego angle that confuses me and the same shooters. There is a missing piece to the puzzle.
I thank you for trying but the explanation you gave me still does not make sense to me and I don't mean this in a bad way. There are too many groups involved and it makes it difficult to figure what's what or maybe I am the one that can't picture it lol.

Mafia 101, I got a question for you. In which group do you place the Iavarone brothers to be , for the Luppino/Violi or the Rizzuto clan ? I have read articles that places them either or.

I don't think Montreal has anything to do with the mess in Hamilton. Dom Violi's recordings were clear it was because the Musitanos supported the Cuntreras and no mention of Montreal was there.

Placing Diego Serrano in a rival group that you're saying involves the Ndrangheta goes into the previous misconception that it's the Ndrangheta and Montreal unless I'm reading that wrong. Until more information comes out about Diego Serrano and the hit on his son that connects this its pointless to pretend it's already connected. It's not the first time a hit team has been used by two separate groups to take out different targets.



Neither. I think their formal affiliation lies with the Gambino Family or proxy of the Gambino Family through Los Angeles.

I don't know of anything that has placed the Iavarone brothers with the Rizzutos. I only know of Tony Iavarone's attendance at Martin Robert's wedding in 2018. Think they said he arrive with or sat with Tony Pietrantonio. Other articles said the Iavarones came up with the Musitanos but have drifted from them. They obviously know the Luppinos and Violis but none of that indicates formal affiliations.


I don't mean this in any sort of condescending way but I think you need to read up on Project Otremens tapes with the Violi brothers and the Bonanno informant. It doesn't clear up everything but alot of stuff came out on those recordings that no one would of even guessed of before 2017.

When I mentioned Rizzuto of course it includes the Cuntrera/Caruana and Musitano groups. So if you want me to be specific. It would be Musitano/Cuntrera/Caruana/Rizzuto vs Luppino/Violi/Commisso/Ndrangheta. I thought it was understood. And I am not talking about formal affiliation of the past. I know quite well about the Gambino affiliation and Tony Iavarone wedding attendance. I am talking about Canadian ties of the recent war that was waged with the Musitano clan and the others that I just listed. Iavarone must of had ties to one group or another. They just don't start shooting x/or Gambino people for no reason.
So I thank you once again.

I don't think I'm following what you're asking then because I did say where I think Tony Iavarone's current affiliation lies and I base that on Albert Iavarone being made in Los Angeles.

I don't understand your assessment that this is Musitano/Cuntrera/Caruana/Rizzuto vs Luppino/Violi/Commisso/Ndrangheta. We don't know half of these guys are involved in this and you left out the one we do know was involved. Where's the Iavarones/Gambinos? How is Commisso or even the Ndrangheta being added into this? If you're basing it just from the shooting on Diego Serrano's kid that's a big jump because we don't know the shootings are connected and wasn't Diego Serrano a Ursino guy not a Commisso guy? How are you adding the Rizzutos into it? Dom Violi's own words were they all get along when talking about Montreal.

to start with sorry about my absence the last few weeks have not been feeling great and been out of internet area. ranieri did not take over anything for rizzutos in toronto or anywhere. any rackets ranieri and his small crew took over were for fernandez only. fernandez was leader of crew until his deportation in late 2012. it sounds like ranieri et al operated under leadership of fernandez up until his 2013 murder. there i s no evidence showing ranieri switched to rizzuto side after 2013. ranieri and crew were all indicted in proj forza dec 2014, there is no mention of them being directly linked to rizzutos. as far as hit teams being led by ranieri this shows them as being contracted hit teams to whoever was paying. the same type of scenario that is playing out with frederick silva in mtl. as silvas info comes out we can see that although he may have met and or committed murders for rizzuto/sollecito faction, silva and associates were taking contracts on anyone.

a final thought on caruana-cuntrera family. there is no presence of the C-C anywhere in mtl anymore aside from liborio. even the extent of liborio cuntreras involvement currently is in dispute. there exists no vast network of drug importers as was the case in late 90's with alfonso caruana. as far as the C-C family operating in ontario i cannot be as sure but since arsons and shootings that took place in 2017 against giuseppe and family it has been very quiet.

Who's taking shots at Giuseppe Caruana or Cuntrera (which is it?) in Ontario? So you're saying that Fernandez didn't fall under the Rizzuto umbrella even though he was a sort of righthand man for Vito Rizzuto at one time? Wouldn't that automatically put Ranieri under the Rizzutos? And what groups were these contracted hitmen killing for?

The commissos were fighting with the caruana cuntreras and Montreal because the commissos ripped off some wolfpack guys of a drug shipment and killed anyone who came from Montreal to try and collect. The wolfpack guys fall under the of the rizzutos and specifically in Toronto, the caruana cuntreras. There were lots of arsons in 2017-2018 in Woodbridge but I believe it was settled after cosimo commisso (the nephew) was killed as a message. Supposedly the commissos asked people from New York to solve the issue but they said that it was the commissos fault that they ripped off those people in the first place and I believe it was squashed from that point. The musitanos I believe backed the caruana cuntreras but they made too many enemies through the years that any beefs they had carried on separately from the cc issue.

So cousins of Commisso getting killed, Luppino son getting killed, Commisso cafe's /restaurant shot at & bombed, Cuntrera (DiManno bakery) molotov cocktail , Cuntrera houses getting shot at & arson, Musitano's getting shot, Toronto Star article I gave you about Ranieri that contradicted what you said and I could go on and on . Multiple News articles and book authors mentioning that Rizzuto and Musitano are allies in this plight. Furthermore, I never said Serrano was a Commisso guy read my original post I mentioned Ursino . If you wish to ridicule my assessment at least call it as it is. Then all these facts and criminal acts being perpetrated to the Commisso, Luppino ,Cuntrera and others are just a fantasy that I made up. Sorry for disturbing you It will not happen again. Thank You

Ciment I'm not calling anything you're saying a fantasy or implying that and I'm not ridiculing your assessment on it I just don't agree with it and think you're ignoring certain things I've brought up. It's completely okay if we disagree but there's no reason to get upset.

The murders shootings and firebombings have all obviously happened to these people but that doesn't mean it's all linked to eachother. I remember when Carmine Verduci was killed and everyone said Vito Rizzuto was behind it but it was actually between the Figliomenis and Coluccios.

I'm not saying these these aren't connected because they could be but like my stance on Montreal being a Family we just don't know the answers.

One of the biggest points I've been speaking about here is not everything is what is reported. Just because there's relationships between all these guys does not mean when something happens in Toronto it's connected to Montreal or Hamilton. This goes to formal affiliations like with Daniele Ranieri but others too and I agree with what Vitocahill said about Daniele Ranieri. Can you name a actual link between Musitanos and Rizzutos from the last 15 years? I don't think I can. A lot of these articles are using info from 20-25 years ago and incomplete info at that. Let's use some info from this decade. One of the Violi brothers was recorded saying Pat Musitano was planning to kill two made men in Toronto but he didn't know who ordered it but thought Joe Todaro would of had to. Joe Todaro could only order Pat Musitano to commit a murder if he was under him. Police have said they believe Pat Musitano was a Buffalo member. Hamilton has always been Buffalo territory. It all points to him being with that Family.

I apologise about the Diego Serrano and Commisso. I obviously misunderstood how you were connecting the Commissos into this.

I have heard what Moscone65 wrote too about the Commissos ripping off the Cuntreras in some drug shipments. But where does this come from?

They have tons of informers on the streets, but with so few really testifying in court, Canadian crime will never get exposed like in the USA and Italy.

Mafia 101 , I am ready to resume talks and Its okay with me too, to disagree that is how we learn through discussions. I like to debate and get ideas from others as along as we mutually respect one another.
I also enjoyed some of our passed discussions and I am willing to forget this recent incident and move on.

The following is probably going to be one to agree to disagree.
The Montreal Crime family , since the Cotroni days, have always had what I call a "point man" in Toronto to look after family businesses they control in Toronto and to also be the eyes and hears. This has been going on for decades . Find below a list men they used over the years. Unfortunately, all got killed at one point or another, except for one who turned informant. When one gets killed they always managed somehow to find one to replace .

Real Simard & Eddie Melo the boxer used to drive to Toronto frequently to take care of family business
Gaetano Panepinto
Constantin (Big Gus) Alevizos
Juan Ramon Fernandez
Daniel Ranieri
Constantin (Big Gus) Alevizos

It has also been well known, that the Cotroni crime family including the Rizzuto's, have been trying to expand in Ontario for years.

"A few months after the Papalia and Barillaro murders in 1997, but before their arrests, Musitano and his cousin, Avignone, joined Rizzuto for a late-night meeting in a restaurant north of Toronto. Musitano backed the Sicilians in Ontario, where Calabrian mobsters ran the underworld." National Post".


You asked to name an actual link between Musitano and Rizzuto, it is Gaetano Panepinto. killed in 2000. Prior to the arrests he dealt with Musitano.
There were plenty of warnings he had enemies.
October 10, 2000, Vito Rizzuto was visiting a funeral parlour in Toronto. He had come to pay his respects to the grieving family of one of his key associates in Ontario, Gaetano “Guy” Panepinto, who had been murdered the week before at age forty-one. Vito was accompanied by three of his top men: Paolo Renda, his brother-in-law and the family’s consigliere; Rocco Sollecito, the former manager of the Consenza Social Club; and Francesco Arcadi, his Calabrian lieutenant.


National Post Published Jul 12, 2020

"The most painful was the murder of his brother, Angelo, in 2017.

In secretly recorded police wiretaps recorded in 2014, Toronto-area mobsters talk about Musitano and his organization, by his name and sometimes as “the ones from Hamilton.”

In 2016, other wiretaps of different mobsters, caught less flattering nicknames. The Musitano brothers were referred to as “the Fatsos” and “the Idiots.”

Dominic Violi, a well-known Hamilton criminal whose family has long Mafia roots, had grown up with Musitano. They played together on swing sets as children and remained friendly for decades.

The Rizzutos in Montreal, however, had murdered Violi’s father, who was also a Calabrian mob boss. Violi complained in 2017 that Musitano was still supporting Sicilian mobsters in Toronto, according to summaries of wiretaps submitted in court."

Vito Rizzuto Passed away in 2013. If point men were used in the past surely Leonardo Rizzuto could of easily use other Sicilian contacts in Ontario to communicate with Musitano.



With regards to the media articles you gave a good example with the Verduci, they really got that one wrong but on certain occasion more often than none they it right.
The reporters are the ones that are close to the police whom they most often get tips from them. A good investigative will also get facts through investigations.
We on the other hand, have to rely on information we get from media, books, analysis through thought process, theorizing and debates to formulate an opinion.
Let's hope we can do this amicably.

Glad your back VitoCahill , hope everything is okay with you !

To be perfectly honest I don't even know what the incident was. Thought we were chilling going back and forth here.

According to police at that meeting with Pat Musitano Pino Avignone Gaetano Panepinto and Vito Rizzuto Gaetano Panepinto introduce Pat Musitano and Pino Avignone as friends of ours. This was well over 15 years ago and the meeting doesn't mean much today or back then. It doesn't mean the Musitanos were with Rizzuto. That's why I kept talking about formal affiliations because that's what really matters. All these guys have met eachother at one point or another that's why we can't say he's with him or he's with him based on these interactions. What that meeting actually looks like is a formal introduction between probable Buffalo members and Vito Rizzuto a Bonanno Soldier through Gaetano Panepinto who must be made to introduce these men but formal affiliation unknown.

Those Sicilians Pat Musitano supported were the Cuntreras and according to Dom Violi was what put the Musitanos on the hitlist.

I see how you're trying to connect the Rizzutos to the Musitanos and Hamilton mess but it doesn't make sense the way I look at it. The only relationships we can come up with are 20+ years old and probably not as what we're reported based on other stuff that's out there. The Musitanos were arrested shortly after the 1997 meeting and by the time they got out Vito Rizzuto was in jail and Montreal already started deteriorating.

I think Big Joe and others have moved to Venezuela or maybe Aruba, the Caribbean.

Cuntrera is very close to 'ndrangheta. Giuseppe Coluccio (who is also free) and others..

Coluccio entered on the powerful Camera di controllo – the board of control for 'Ndrangheta clans, comprising six or seven Toronto-area men, who co-ordinate activities and resolves disputes among Calabrian gangsters in Southern Ontario.[4] He also aligned himself with members of the Sicilian Mafia, in particular with Giuseppe Big Joe Cuntrera, a member of the Cuntrera-Caruana Mafia clan operating in Canada and Venezuela and involved in large scale cocaine trafficking.[5][11] Police allege Coluccio continued trafficking "substantial quantities" of cocaine and hashish from South America while he was living in Canada.[6]

Vito Rizzuto was released from jail in 2012 and died in 2013. Pat Musitano got killed in 2019. So that makes it 7 years. If Vito Supported him in 1997. Why wouldn't he not support him in 2012. When Vito came out of jail he was more determined than ever to avenge for what they did to his family.

Furthermore , Rizzuto has cousins in Toronto. When he was released from jail 2012 he visited Toronto and met with people. He had plenty of opportunity to relay any messages to the Musitano.

The recording of Violi complaining in 2017 that Musitano was still supporting Sicilian mobsters in Toronto, according to summaries of wiretaps submitted in court." Reaffirms their relationship some of these Sicilian mobsters in Toronto are relatives of Rizzuto and his relatives would not go against Vito. For them to support Musitano means they had the consent of Vito. So it would be logical to assume there is a relationship between the Musitano clan and Rizzuto clan. I find there is enough evidence to connect the dots. All I did is research a few articles and there was enough for me to reach a conclusion. I didn't even refer to books on this very subject.

It is very easy to say there is not enough evidence, we don't know if this happened or if they really met. 95 percent of what we talk about on this organized crime site would fall into this category. This means we can't prove anything unless there is a recording or a witness. So our only alternative is to analyze what ever facts we have and come up with an opinion and its okay that we may come up with opposing outcomes. So I agree to disagree.

So many unknown things why was Carmine Verduci hit was it connected to Montreal?
Jimmy DeMaria and Vito Rizzuto hated each other but what do we know? I think Mirarchi had connections to DeMaria??

Ciment we're just playing could of game now with those scenarios. They could of had a relationship in those 7 years. He could of contacted him in 2012. He could've not contacted them just as well. Can't actually link them during that time and there's no connection between them and Vito Rizzuto's successors during the time the Musitanos were being hit. Montreal had their own problems to worry about at the time. My thing is why can't we just leave it at we don't know instead of saying there were connections?

The Sicilians Dom Violi referred to that the Musitanos supported were the Cuntreras and they aren't relatives of Rizzuto and it doesn't automatically mean Montreal was pulling the strings of all of this.

Dom Violi's own words were they all get along when talking about Montreal. I'll say again that you're ignoring info we have now for incomplete info from 20+ years ago.



Carmine Verduci was killed in a dispute between the Figliomenis and Coluccios with no link to Montreal. At the time everyone and the papers were saying it was Vito Rizzuto striking from the grave.

Yes we play where is, we don't know about those point men if they met, they just happened to work for him but he doesn't know them, the Toronto Star reporter lets just dismiss Ranieri because we don't know . This game can be played both sides . Your interpretation of evidence is you want either a tape recording or a witness at every scenario. What does he mean" where they get along when talking about Montreal " . Montreal has been nothing but chaos for decades and they are all getting along. Please explain to me how is this possible.
Then your grouping the Sicilians as being only Cuntrera. What about Rizzuto's relatives,the Cammalleri ,Campoli's in Toronto they don't count. Your making it sound as if the Cuntrera's call all the shots in Toronto and Rizzuto is just an innocent by stander. Your ignoring info about Toronto Star

Police said Ranieri took over the Rizzuto operation in Toronto in 2013 after the murder of his former associate, Juan Ramon Fernandez, also known in the GTA as “Joey Bravo.”
It seems Reporters and police statements don't count and you say I am ignoring info.
So there is your proof a Rizzuto operative is taking over the operations in Toronto. Who happened to work for Fernandez in the past, Fernandez the same guy who gets killed in Sicily by who's directive , we can't say Rizzuto because by your standards we need a witness or a tape recording. What is a Rizzuto operative doing in Toronto if Leonardo Rizzuto is to busy fighting a war in Montreal. Shouldn't he be there helping out . Who are we kidding.
Furthermore, I never said Cuntrera were relatives. I said some of the Sicilians in Toronto are relatives.

So I agree lets leave it alone and move on.

Juan Fernandez belonged to the Rizzutos, so if Daniele Ranieri belonged to Fernandez then it stands to reason that he belonged to the Rizzutos by extension.