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Re: Corleone women [Re: Evita] #1041116
10/02/22 12:12 AM
10/02/22 12:12 AM
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Lana Offline
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Originally Posted by Evita
Originally Posted by Lana
Originally Posted by mustachepete
Originally Posted by Lana
The women were culpable too They knew what their husbands' business was, knew their rich, privileged life was funded by tainted money from other people's murder, misery and blood

I think Vito's rejoinder to this is that his wife isn't culpable because he isn't culpable. He is doing what the President does, what the Senator does, what General does, what the Industrialist does, what the Banker and Lawyer do. They all kill and steal. Vito seems resigned to a rough time when he has to answer to God, but he simply doesn't recognize that he has to answer to these others.
Well put Vito was delusional indeed

Well said almost worked for him if not for the loss of Sonny, catapulting Michael into taking over

Still could have cut his losses, handed over to Clemenza and Tessio and walked away, retired.
1. Vito alive
2. Michael could have lived a "legitimate" life in Nevada
3. Fredo continues learning the casino business with Greene

Would they make Carlo still answer for Santino
My take, even if Sonny was not killed, it was never going to work for them - Well, Buckleys and None - known murderous, top Mafia, Corleone family and Michael Corleone in "this clean country, in his oily hair -- dressed up in those silk suits and try to pass himself off as decent American Senator"!

Re: Corleone women [Re: lucab19] #1041117
10/02/22 12:12 AM
10/02/22 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by lucab19
Originally Posted by Evita

Would they make Carlo still answer for Santino

Nothing could stop Carlo from having to answer for Sonny.

Even in this re-imagined Corleone world, with Michael having gone legitimate, I reckon he would do it himself
Sure thing Carlo was always a dead man however keeping Carlo close / closer, without raising any suspicions until Vito's death, to answer for Santino, would have been no easy, almost impossible task

It was always going to be Michael's job to get Carlo to answer for Santino because Nice! Guy Vito would never do it himself
Vito left it for Michael to be the “lousy cold-hearted bastard” and make his daughter a widow Thanks! Pop

Re: Corleone women [Re: Evita] #1041118
10/02/22 12:12 AM
10/02/22 12:12 AM
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Lana Offline
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Originally Posted by Evita
Originally Posted by Capri
Would Nice guy Vito have stomach to make his daughter widow

He told Michael I don't want anything to happen to him while I am alive.

Nice! guy Vito
Quote
Connie: Michael! You lousy bastard -- you killed my husband! You waited until Papa died so nobody could stop you and then you killed him You blamed him for Sonny -- you always did

Everybody did but you never thought about me -- you never gave a damn about me Now what am I going to do?

Re: Corleone women [Re: lucab19] #1041123
10/02/22 09:11 AM
10/02/22 09:11 AM
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Capri Offline
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Originally Posted by lucab19
Originally Posted by Evita
Originally Posted by Capri
Would Nice guy Vito have stomach to make his daughter widow

He told Michael I don't want anything to happen to him while I am alive.


That's not in the movie. I'm pretty sure it's not in the book either? Do you have a source for it?

Read the papers -- read the papers!

Re: Corleone women [Re: Lana] #1041132
10/02/22 06:37 PM
10/02/22 06:37 PM
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Evita Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lana
My take, even if Sonny was not killed, it was never going to work for them - Well, Buckleys and None - known murderous, top Mafia, Corleone family and Michael Corleone in "this clean country, in his oily hair -- dressed up in those silk suits and try to pass himself off as decent American Senator"!

I too reckon, Crime and Politics never going to work for them but Crime and "legitimacy" could, same as Pentangeli and Michael

Re: Corleone women [Re: Lana] #1041133
10/02/22 06:41 PM
10/02/22 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Lana
Originally Posted by lucab19
Originally Posted by Evita

Would they make Carlo still answer for Santino

Nothing could stop Carlo from having to answer for Sonny.

Even in this re-imagined Corleone world, with Michael having gone legitimate, I reckon he would do it himself
Sure thing Carlo was always a dead man however keeping Carlo close / closer, without raising any suspicions until Vito's death, to answer for Santino, would have been no easy, almost impossible task

It was always going to be Michael's job to get Carlo to answer for Santino because Nice! Guy Vito would never do it himself
Vito left it for Michael to be the “lousy cold-hearted bastard” and make his daughter a widow Thanks! Pop

No doubt Nice! Guy Vito wouldn't want his daughter to think he is “lousy cold-hearted bastard” but okay for her brother

Re: Corleone women [Re: Evita] #1041135
10/03/22 12:08 AM
10/03/22 12:08 AM
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At Anthony's party
Quote
Connie: It means we should all live happily for a hundred years -- the family That'd be true if my father were still alive

Re: Corleone women [Re: Lana] #1041570
10/09/22 06:32 PM
10/09/22 06:32 PM
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Apollonia was honking the car horn impatiently when Don Tommasino was telling Michael that Sonny had been killed

While no doubt she would have been like Carmela and kept the family together, no interfering in his business, no abortion, no divorce, I wonder how their marriage would grow once the Thunder has bolted and the lust cools!

Re: Corleone women [Re: Evita] #1041602
10/10/22 12:07 AM
10/10/22 12:07 AM
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  • Apollonia
Well, Calo said “She'll make a good American wife”

When Michael was teaching Apollonia to drive [actually it was the other way around! Pacino couldn't drive then!] - Don Tommasino's car drives in, sounding its horn Michael walks over to it and helps Tommasino out of the car as Apollonia runs over and kisses him
Quote
Apollonia: [In Italian] “Michael is teaching me to drive -- watch, I'll show you”
later [pressing the car horn]
Michele - Michele, Let's go -- let's go -- you promised me

My take, for what it is worth!
I acknowledge whilst Apollonia may not have been at the same maturity nor perhaps intelligence level as Michael – not grasping the urgency ie: when Don Tommasino's car drives in sounding its horn nor the seriousness of Don Tommasino and Michael's solemn conversation - Apollonia, at that time was only 16 years old? and been living seemingly a sheltered life in conservative Sicily

Michael was a different man then....loving, protective towards Apollonia She was keen and accepting who he was
Both Michael and Apollonia would have grown together and lived happily for a hundred years!

Godfather 3 - Michael talking to Anthony and Mary about Apollonia
Quote
She was wonderful, beautiful I loved her And then she died
My trusted bodyguard planted a bomb in my car; she drove it before I did

Re: Corleone women [Re: Evita] #1041660
10/11/22 11:36 PM
10/11/22 11:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Evita

While no doubt she would have been like Carmela and kept the family together, no interfering in his business, no abortion, no divorce, I wonder how their marriage would grow once the Thunder has bolted and the lust cools!

Apollonia would have accepted Michael for what he was , unlike Kay, who tried (hoped) to change him. The key is that marvelous scene at Sr. Vitelli's cafe, when Michael tells him he's hiding from the police in America and "Some people would pay a lot of money for that information but then your daughter would lose a father instead of gaining a husband." Notice that 'Sr. V is unfazed by Michael's admission that he's on the lam for a probable major crime--possibly mob-related--doesn't even bat an eyelash before inviting Michael to his home. Rural Sicilians of that era--and perhaps this era-intensely distrusted authorities, especially police; and were ready to accept fugitives as, (ahem) "legitimate." Apollonia was part of that same accepting milieu. Michael didn't have to give her all that BS he had to hand Kay when he wooed her in New Hampshire. I'm not making excuses for Michael's criminal nature, I'm just saying that he was in the right place for him when he got hit by the fulmine.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Corleone women [Re: Turnbull] #1041668
10/12/22 02:00 PM
10/12/22 02:00 PM
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I think Michael may have had the opposite problem with Apollonia as he had with Kay.

Much of Michael's desire to track down and marry Kay had to do with her being a WASP. He used her as part of his plan to be accepted by the American pezzonovante.

Remember, his lifelong desire was to be considered "legitimate" (even if he wasn't).

How would Apollonia have helped with that? Would a rural Sicilian girl have the ability to drink coffee and make small talk with people like Senator Geary's wife?

She didn't seem too eager to learn English, much less to become an American society dame. I can't imagine she would have had any interest in playing the part of a successful businessman's wife.

I think, once the Thunderbolt faded, Michael would have grown very weary of Apollonia and considered her a hindrance to achieving his goals.

If that came to pass, I wonder how he would have handled it?

Last edited by The Last Woltz; 10/12/22 02:00 PM.

"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Corleone women [Re: The Last Woltz] #1041669
10/12/22 03:01 PM
10/12/22 03:01 PM
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You make excellent points, LW. But, at that point in Michael's life, I doubt he was thinking along those lines. The fulminel was still ringing in his ears. And, he was probably figuring that Sonny would be the head of the family until Vito recovered, and he could return to "civilian" life. Of course Apollonia would have been a hindrance to to his obsessive quest for "legitimacy in his Donship, as you said. Hence his bloodless, passionless wooing of Kay in New Hampshire after his return.

This leads to another question: Do you think that he told Kay that he had married in Sicily, and that his bride was killed by mistake by a bomb intended for him? Would Kay have agreed to marry him if he had?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Corleone women [Re: Turnbull] #1041670
10/12/22 03:47 PM
10/12/22 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
You make excellent points, LW. But, at that point in Michael's life, I doubt he was thinking along those lines. The fulminel was still ringing in his ears. And, he was probably figuring that Sonny would be the head of the family until Vito recovered, and he could return to "civilian" life. Of course Apollonia would have been a hindrance to to his obsessive quest for "legitimacy in his Donship, as you said. Hence his bloodless, passionless wooing of Kay in New Hampshire after his return.

This leads to another question: Do you think that he told Kay that he had married in Sicily, and that his bride was killed by mistake by a bomb intended for him? Would Kay have agreed to marry him if he had?


Fair points, TB. I agree that Michael wasn't thinking about that when he married Apollonia. I was just speculating on an alternative timeline.

Good question about Kay. She was certainly aware if it by the time of GFIII, and Michael talked about it quite openly in Sicily.

But it's hard to imagine him telling Kay about that before they married and I'd guess not before the Tahoe assassination attempt, as Kay didn't seem to anticipate any personal danger to her or their children.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Corleone women [Re: Turnbull] #1041674
10/12/22 07:32 PM
10/12/22 07:32 PM
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No doubt Apollonia did accept Michael for what he was She was keen and accepting who he was

While Michael's wooing of Kay may have been bloodless, passionless, I don't think he gave any BS to her.
I reckon it was one of the very few, perhaps the only time he was honest with her, truly believing in what he was saying

While once the Thunderbolt faded, even if Michael had grown very weary of Apollonia, he never would have lost the family

I didn't think anyone other than Vito knew about Apollonia but Kay for someone who was banished, knew a lot of inside stuff even that Michael killed Fredo

Re: Corleone women [Re: The Last Woltz] #1041675
10/12/22 07:38 PM
10/12/22 07:38 PM
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As regards Kay being a WASP, I reckon WASP is our doing!
also WASP Kay was already Michael's girlfriend, long before Michael having to become the Don and the quest for "legitimacy"

Good point about Apollonia's interest in playing the part of a successful businessman's wife though Kay hosting Senator Geary's wife didn't help Michael in any way

Roth's wife was not at his birthday party in spite of being in Havana She was also sent off to play bingo

The role of the women, at that time were!
1. bringing their sons into this world
2. cooking, cleaning
3. don't give any reason for their husbands to hit them

Re: Corleone women [Re: Evita] #1041678
10/13/22 02:20 AM
10/13/22 02:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Evita

While Michael's wooing of Kay may have been bloodless, passionless, I don't think he gave any BS to her.
I reckon it was one of the very few, perhaps the only time he was honest with her, truly believing in what he was saying

Honest with her?? Believing in what he was saying?? "The Corleone family will be completely legitimate in five years"?? The family under Michael wouldn't be "legitimate" in five, or seven, or any years, except in Michael's warped, twisted way of imagining "legitimacy.". Try to count all the killings he ordered, even after he moved to Nevada. Even in 1979, decades after he married Kay, he still controlled the Commission, and was ordering murders right up to the end.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Corleone women [Re: Turnbull] #1041704
10/13/22 06:51 PM
10/13/22 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Evita

While Michael's wooing of Kay may have been bloodless, passionless, I don't think he gave any BS to her.
I reckon it was one of the very few, perhaps the only time he was honest with her, truly believing in what he was saying

Honest with her?? Believing in what he was saying?? "The Corleone family will be completely legitimate in five years"?? The family under Michael wouldn't be "legitimate" in five, or seven, or any years, except in Michael's warped, twisted way of imagining "legitimacy.". Try to count all the killings he ordered, even after he moved to Nevada. Even in 1979, decades after he married Kay, he still controlled the Commission, and was ordering murders right up to the end.

He truly believed in what he was saying
Both were delusional that "The Corleone family's decades of criminal activities will be completely legitimate in five years" let alone

I reckon The family under Michael was "legitimate" he had achieved the semblance of legitimacy, decent American, successful businessman, philanthropist and as We see in GFIII more "legitimate" than ever

While Michael's "legitimate" front was the Elephant in the room, we saw how people were not treating him as crime boss to his face and going along with his "legitimate" front

As regards all the killings he ordered, even after he moved to Nevada They hit us so -- we hit 'em back.

Re: Corleone women [Re: Evita] #1041816
10/15/22 12:07 AM
10/15/22 12:07 AM
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My take, both Michael and Kay deluded themselves However when Michael told Kay
Quote
I mean in five years, the Corleone Family is going to be completely legitimate
He truly believed in what he was saying” that it would be so

Why would Michael need to lie to Kay to get her to marry him?

Michael had no qualms marrying Apollonia and surely could have married a nice Italian origin bride, suitable Mob Boss wife! instead of seeking Kay out

Re: Corleone women [Re: Turnbull] #1041825
10/15/22 06:13 AM
10/15/22 06:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Turnbull

I'm just saying that he was in the right place for him when he got hit by the fulmine.

1. boredom
2. uncertainty
3. loneliness
4. his friends -- are his bodyguards!

Re: Corleone women [Re: Evita] #1042231
10/21/22 12:04 AM
10/21/22 12:04 AM
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  • Kay
Why did Kay marry Michael?
Quote
Kay: Michael, why did you come here? Why? What do you want with me after all this time? Here I was calling and writing....
and knowing Michael was now Mafia

Re: Corleone women [Re: Lana] #1042313
10/21/22 08:00 PM
10/21/22 08:00 PM
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Evita Offline OP
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She is married to Merle 2.0 in Godfather III

Re: Corleone women [Re: Evita] #1042816
10/30/22 05:29 AM
10/30/22 05:29 AM
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It was all about Michael punishment, misery, regrets, lonely death He was put through the wringer crying over Don Tommasino coffin, forgiveness from Kay, teary confession to Cardinal Lamberto and more

Kay not a murmur even the abortion

Re: Corleone women [Re: Capri] #1043075
11/03/22 08:18 PM
11/03/22 08:18 PM
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He paid dearly, deeply but she got off scot-free

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