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Criminality and legitimacy #1040109
09/11/22 11:21 PM
09/11/22 11:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,509
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,509
AZ
Vito was a Sicilian transplanted to America. His values were Sicilian. His young life was transformed when he saw a two-bit gabellotto kill his father, his brother and his mother, and narrowly escaped being killed himself. Power was his means to an end: security and mastery of his environment. He lived modestly and wasn’t greedy. His “mall” was more a fortress (as we saw after he was shot) than a showy mansion. He knew that American law defined him as a criminal. But, he didn’t let it define him because he achieved “legitimacy” on his terms: he bought, and earned, loyalty and favors from cops, judges and politicians—the instruments of the law that defined his activities as criminal. He dispensed “justice” to fellow Sicilians who shared his values and offered friendship, loyalty and respect in return. He was secure in his place and in his self esteem.

Michael was born in America and for a good part of his life rejected (but didn’t totally excise) the Sicilian values he grew up with. His father’s shooting awakened those values, but he was never at ease with them. He wanted unlimited power for power’s sake, but never acknowledged, much less accepted, that he had chosen a life of crime. Instead, he constantly rationalized his criminality by creating the fiction that he and his father were “no different than other powerful en with responsibility toward others.” It made him obsessed with cloaking his criminality in “legitimacy,” and he never was able to reconcile the two.

It led him into a life of internal turmoil and frustration. Vito had a degree of personal modesty and warmth; Michael was cold and uncaring. Vito’s politicians seemed to reciprocate: At Connie’s wedding, Tom tells him that “Senator Cauly apologized for not coming personally -- he said you'd understand. Also, some of the judges. They've all sent gifts.” Michael got nothing but contempt from Sen. Geary: “I’ll do business with you, but the fact is, I despise you—the phony way you pose yourself—you and your whole f*****g family.” (Michael, in the only self-aware remark he ever made in the Trilogy, replies, “We’re both part of the same hypocrisy, Senator. But never think it applies to my family.”)

Even when he breaks down in tears in III and confesses to Cardinal Lamberto, he’s still dissembling and rationalizing: “I ordered my brother killed…he injured me.” It was Fredo’s fault that he committed fratricide. He couldn’t even count on the loyalty of those closest to him: When Tom asks him, after the Tahoe shooting, if he suspected Rocco and Neri, he replies: “You see -- all our people are business men, their loyalty is based on that. Now, one thing that I learned from Pop was to try to think as people around you think. Now on that basis, anything's possible.”

Both Vito and Michael were big time criminals. Vito accepted what he was, telling Michael, in his garden near the end of GF:” I work my whole life, I don't apologize, to take care of my family. And I refused -- to be a fool -- dancing on the string, held by all those -- bigshots. I don't apologize -- that's my life.” Michael spent his life deluding himself that he was someone other than a “common Mafia hood,” as Kay called him in III.

Vito died while playing with his grandson. Michael died, alone and embittered, in Sicily, with only a little dog to attend him.
Who succeeded in his life? Who failed? Your views?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Criminality and legitimacy [Re: Turnbull] #1040191
09/14/22 12:06 AM
09/14/22 12:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 757
Australia
L
Lana Offline
The Hunted One
Lana  Offline
The Hunted One
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 757
Australia
My take, for what it is worth!
All that money couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again!

If we measure Vito and Michael on their 'profession' my view, pretty even, give or take....both got shot at

However on a personal level “Vito died while playing with his grandson. Michael died, alone and embittered, in Sicily, with only a little dog to attend him” Vito died 'happy' as could be under the circumstances [both lost a child] thanks to his wife, Carmela

Vito also didn't have to contend with his -
1. insolent sister
2. brother's betrayal
3. wife's abortion

"Both Vito and Michael were big time criminals. Vito accepted what he was" but deluded himself that Michael can be someone other than a “common Mafia hood" become "legitimate" thus [Ref: Evita] burdening Michael with the impossible, unrealistic Vito's obsession with legitimizing Vito's decades old criminal activities

As Barzini said at the Commission meeting even in their time -
Quote
Times have changed It's not like the Old Days -- when we can do anything we want

Vito “bought, and earned, loyalty and favors from [corrupt] cops, judges and politicians” the very people who were entrusted with and should have been upholding the American law

“He dispensed [his] “justice” to fellow Sicilians who shared his values and offered friendship, loyalty and respect in return” always with a caveat

Quote
Vito: It's true, I have a lot of friends in politics but they wouldn't be friendly very long if they knew my business was drugs instead of gambling, which they rule that as a -- harmless vice But drugs is a dirty business
If Vito's friends would have gone along, wouldn't Vito have been greedy for the millions even if drugs was a dirty business?

Money can be a weapon even more so in their business where every Don is always greedy for money, more money indeed – apart from the money itself, the richer Dons would wield more clout....power, security and able to buy more cops, judges and politician friends

“He [Vito] was secure in his place and in his self esteem” until complacency and slippin' brought him undone and messed up Michael's life
“It led him [Michael] into a life of internal turmoil and frustration” Thanks! Pop

Sure thing “Vito had a degree of personal modesty and warmth;” and always the nice guy even when detrimental to Michael

Whilst Vito's Senators didn't attend his daughter's wedding, Michael's Senator attended Michael's son's first communion at his home

Senator Pat Geary
Originally Posted by Turnbull
The movie points up Geary's arrogance and hubris: A US Senator and "family man" patronizing a brothel and thinking nothing of it. We saw an even more egregious example earlier when Geary demands a huge bribe from Michael and justifies it because "I don't like your kind of people...you come out to this clean country with your oily hair...dressed up in silk suits...try to pass yourselves off as decent Americans." This was typical behavior of some Nevadans in power who could trace their ancestry in the state back two or three generations ("pioneers") and thought they owned the state, make their own rules, and apply other rules to "outsiders." Another example was in "Casino," when County Commissioner Pat Webb, after demanding that Ace Rothstein reinstate his useless brother in law in a "juiced-in" job: "You people will never understand that you're here as our guests, and I'm gonna send you back where you came from..." Oli once pointed out that some Texas pezzanovantes think and behave the same way.
ie: Vito would have “got nothing but contempt from Sen. Geary:” too

Vito also “couldn’t even count on the loyalty of” his men - Paulie set Vito up for the hit, Tessio's betrayal

Re: Criminality and legitimacy [Re: Turnbull] #1040268
09/15/22 04:20 AM
09/15/22 04:20 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 88
Adelaide, Australia
L
lucab19 Offline
Button
lucab19  Offline
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Button
Joined: Aug 2020
Posts: 88
Adelaide, Australia
On the subject of Nevadans and their hostility towards 'outsiders', there is a piece of dialogue from Casino that perfectly encapsulates it. The Gaming Commission representative (Webb) goes to see Ace Rothstein, who has just fired a local Nevadan for incompetence.

WEBB
(Chuckling)
You have got me there. Old Don is as
useless as tits on a boar.
(Chuckles.)
But, he is my brother-in-law, and I
would look on it as a personal favor
if you'd think some more on hirin'
him back.

ACE
I can't do that. And I appreciate
the fact that he's your brother-in-
law, and I do want to help you and I
like to do favors, and I know who
you are, but I cannot do that.

WEBB
Well, could there be any position...
further down the trough?

ACE
(Pause)
I'm sorry, I can't do anything. He's
too incompetent. And the bottom line
is, he cannot be trusted.

The telephone rings. ACE picks it up.

ACE
(Into telephone)
Okay, thanks.
(To WEBB.)
Um... you know, that's it. I'm sorry.

WEBB
Mr Rothstein. Your people never will
understand the way it works out here.
You're all just our guests. But you
act like you're at home. Let me tell
you somethin', partner... you ain't
home. But that's where we're gonna
send you if it harelips the Governor.
(Pause.)
Thank you for your time.

Re: Criminality and legitimacy [Re: lucab19] #1040274
09/15/22 04:01 PM
09/15/22 04:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,509
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,509
AZ
Yes, that was one of the best scenes in the movie (loved how Ace preserved the crease in his pants by sitting in his skivvies). Also perfectly paralleled Geary's sense of entitlement.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Criminality and legitimacy [Re: Turnbull] #1040281
09/15/22 07:36 PM
09/15/22 07:36 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 557
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Evita Offline
Underboss
Evita  Offline
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 557
not just the Nevadans Hollywood movie producers too I ain't no band leader! Yeah, I heard that story....

I reckon, Vito is seen through rose-colored glasses

No doubt Both Vito and Michael were big time criminals, the difference was their wives
Carmela you can never lose your family Kay murdered theirs

I am curious as to how Michael,
1. was cold and uncaring.
2. wanted unlimited power for power’s sake,

Fredo also would have been guilty of fratricide if Michael had been killed
He was complicit in trying to get his brother killed…he stepped over me He did injure him

Originally Posted by Turnbull

He wanted unlimited power for power’s sake, but never acknowledged, much less accepted, that he had chosen a life of crime. Instead, he constantly rationalized his criminality by creating the fiction that he and his father were “no different than other powerful en with responsibility toward others.” It made him obsessed with cloaking his criminality in “legitimacy,” and he never was able to reconcile the two.

It led him into a life of internal turmoil and frustration.

Michael spent his life deluding himself that he was someone other than a “common Mafia hood,” as Kay called him in III.

I reckon he had achieved the semblance of legitimacy, decent American, successful businessman, philanthropist and as We see in GFIII more "legitimate" than ever

While Michael's "legitimate" front was the Elephant in the room, we saw how people were not treating him as crime boss to his face and going along with his "legitimate" front

He sat with all those business people at Batista's meeting and Roth's birthday party like he was no different, was one of them

Senators were associating with him, Anthony's first Communion party at his home, Superman club and the Presidential palace New Year reception

I reckon, perfect balance and reconciliation, successfully cloaking his criminality in “legitimacy,” as could be under the circumstances

Re: Criminality and legitimacy [Re: Evita] #1040287
09/16/22 12:02 AM
09/16/22 12:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 757
Australia
L
Lana Offline
The Hunted One
Lana  Offline
The Hunted One
L
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 757
Australia
Originally Posted by Evita
Extract: I am curious as to how Michael,
1. was cold and uncaring.
2. wanted unlimited power for power’s sake,
There were many instances of Michael being tender, loving and caring with Kay, Apollonia, Vito, Carmela, Sonny, Tom, Fredo, Connie and others as well

What if appollonia didn't die ?
Originally Posted by Lana
Vito too "actually enjoyed the power and fear that he wielded" among others, just ask!
1. Signor Roberto, Carmela's friend's landlord
2. band leader's brains or his signature
3. Woltz via Khartoum [defenceless prize horse]
4. anybody about Luca

Vito too "Every slight had to be avenged, but the only solution was murder" or threat of murder Comply or Die indeed

If my memory serves me right, among others - Vito
  • killed Don Fanucci and took over his business [Granted Vito looked after the people as well unlike Fanucci]
  • band leader's signature or brains on his Godson Fontane's contract release
  • killing of Khartoum [defenceless prize horse] for his Godson Fontane's movie role
  • went back years later and killed, a senile, one leg in the grave, Don Ciccio who was living out his last days thousands of miles away absolutely no threat to the Corleones as revenge for killing his family because same as Michael, the enemies have to be wiped out
  • planned all the dirty work - killing of Carlo Rizzi and Moe Greene, the baptism murders - for Michael to carry out after Vito's death thus leaving a murderous legacy for Michael Thanks! Pop

Originally Posted by Evita
Both were evil, ruthless, murderous crime boss Like father like son The difference was their wives
Spot on! Vito's Carmela Michael's no Apollonia


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