not in novel or movie He was dismissive another pezzonovante

That he was going to marry Kay and "cut close ties with his family."

He was "forced" to protect Vito by killing them The only one Sol would let near them

Once he was "forced" to take over after Sonny was killed, it was not easy just to walk away
He was a powerful man with responsibility for others

Michael had the added impossible, unrealistic burden of Vito's obsession with legitimizing Vito's decades old criminal activities

The personal tragedy of Michael's life was because of the wife he chose who became his horror that done him in
She never understood nor supportive that he was a top Mafia boss, trying to become a "legitimate" businessman

As Capri said, Mike had choices,but only before Sonny was killed

Roth always be a threat to Michael and wouldn't have rested until he was dead
No doubt Fredo could have been spared

Don't know that Mike fell in love with the power and fear he generated, I reckon they were justified murders I don't feel I have to wipe everyone out -- just my enemies -- that's all. They hit him so -- He hit 'em back Roth started it!

Could you expand on your opinion -- I'm particularly interested in knowing -- uh -- how you reckon Michael was a bad seed who was psychologically pre-disposed to becoming the supposed sociopath that he was?

Mr Turnbull and Mr Para, I think you are being too harsh! on Michael

How “Vito's shooting ignited the lust for power [if any!] that was deep inside Michael” or "impelled him to start on his life of crime"?

Michael protecting his father by killing Sollozzo and McCluskey was at that stage, a one-off
Besides Sonny was alive and it was Sonny who was always going to succeed Vito

Michael was indeed "forced" to protect Vito by killing Sollozzo and McCluskey because Michael was “The only one Sol would let near them” as Sollozzo himself said to Sonny, Sollozzo wanted Michael to proposition - stall the Corleones with civilian Michael, to buy time

and Michael's spot on strategy
I believe Michael “accepted the reality that he was a criminal” because Michael told Geary “We're both part of the same hypocrisy”

• Michael's choices were - Kill or be Killed

"Once he was "forced" to take over after Sonny was killed" “as with any Mob Chief, there were killings that he had to do to protect his empire” and they can never shy away from it not just to stay on Top but to stay alive

It could work! Sonny gotta business to run He gotta kick asses sometimes to make it run right
So with that famous temper of his, huh Sonny? can straighten things and people out....

Both Sonny and Fredo banging cocktail waitresses two at a time! too

Sure thing Carlo is a hustler but a Casino Host in some Mickey Mouse night club somewhere! Send Carlo, the Don's only son-in-law, to pick the “top high roller gamblers” up at the airport!

This might stop Carlo hitting Connie though being “under the watchful eye of Sonny”

My take, for what it is worth!
Michael's “close ties with his family." among others - Extracts:

• quit College and enlisted in the Marines in defiance of his father's big plans and high hopes for him
• Michael stayed put and remained seated all by himself when everyone else hurried to greet Vito at Vito's surprise birthday party
• Michael came to Carlo and Connie's wedding late and in his Marine uniform, hand in hand, flaunting, his American girlfriend, Kay and sat away from everyone
• Kay, an outsider 'White Anglo-Saxon Protestant' WASP was also considered to be too forward or similar for an unmarried woman

Side questions please
1. How did Michael still enlist when Michael already had a deferment registered?
2. Michael knew? when he went to enlist that “Pop had pulled a lot of strings to get him a deferment”

In 1940, as the US ramped up military preparedness, the War Department started drafting young men into the Army--the largest of the military services. The Navy and Marine Corps relied on volunteers. Michael volunteered for the Marine Corps. His deferment from the Army draft was irrelevant to the Marines because he volunteered.

Vito probably bribed, or had Tom bribe, a doctor to certify to Michael's Draft Board that Michael had some physical or mental condition that would render him unfit for military service. He might not have told Michael about it simply because he assumed that Michael wouldn't, or shouldn't, want to be drafted That was before Pearl Harbor.

While some of the killings that Mike ordered could be justified as "self defense" and strictly business, the reason I consider him an incipient psycho are the ones that weren't necessary.

Roth was a washed up ,broken down, ex big shot in FBI custody and would be hard pressed to cause any problems worse than the ones he'd already failed at.

The prostitute in the brothel was slaughtered horribly so Mike could put the screws to Geary. This was an innocent girl who was treated like garbage by Mike. She was murdered and presumably dumped in a landfill,lake or shallow grave. And for what?

Fredo didn't have to die. Mike could have given him a pass and exiled him from the Family.
Who but a true sociopath would kill his own brother.
Of course Mad Sam DeStefano killed his own brother,but that kind of makes my point.

Again,this is just my own opinion.

No doubt it is nice, fun to flesh out the different opinions, interpretations, speculations, knowledge of the Forum members, in the spirit of the Board which keeps us conversing half a century on

My two cents worth!
I reckon all the killings were justified even Fredo's, in view of this is the business they've chosen and they all know the consequences of what will happen as a result of their betrayal

I believe, a man like Roth would risk going through it all again and again until he had Michael destroyed or dead
This is the man who didn't care if women and children were killed as long as Michael was

He still had his 300 million, Questadt, Geary and he'd always remain a dangerous foe, stone in Michael's shoe and I reckon, needs to be wiped out Get him -- let's get him now, while they can

While the Geary set up prostitute murder is no doubt deplorable,
1. would the band leader's brains not be splattered on the Godson's release contract if he still refused to sign?
2. what about Khartoum?

No doubt Fredo could have been spared as we'd debated that Michael could have continued to keep him under watch same as until Mama died

Since Fredo set his own brother up to be murdered, he is a true sociopath too and we have to consider him an incipient psycho as well

Evita,have you ever had a chance to read the Novel ?

Check out this thread for a discussion of people's opinions on who had to die:
http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=948684&page=1

Kay Biggest hypocrite

Exactly Evita Why Vito always get a pass

Why Tom get a pass?


Why Fredo get a pass?

same logic Since Fredo set his own brother up to be murdered, he is a true sociopath too and we have to consider him an incipient psycho as well

At least speaking of this forum, I don't think that they get passes. Fredo, in particular, is seen much more darkly here than seems to be presented in the movie.

Why some seem to get a pass in the movie itself is more of a "how." One technique is just using emotion, like Fredo in the boathouse, to create sympathy. Another is to show something completed, as with the prostitute's murder, so that Tom and Fredo aren't actually shown participating. The audience can only process so much in real time.

Great thread!

Catching up a bit...



Michael had choices all along. Hard choices, maybe, but still choices.

Sure, Michael killing Sol and McCluskey himself was expedient but was it really necessary?

The Family knew hours in advance where the meeting was going to be. It was a restaurant that was open to the public. Why not have some of their operatives eating dinner there and have them kill Sol and Mac? Why not have the hundred buttonmen Sonny bragged about make a frontal assault on the restaurant while Michael was in the bathroom? Sol and Mac had no idea that the Corleones knew where they were going to be (or that anyone would dare to kill Mac) so they wouldn't have had much security with them.

It was Michael's desire to control things that made him unwilling to rely on anyone else to kill Sol and Mac. But it wasn't the only way.



I don't know about that.

Vito and Carmella were the prototypical Mafia couple, but they still had a son go so far as to enlist in the Marines and marry a WASP.

One of the sub-themes in the Trilogy is the tension between assimilating into American society and retaining Old World values.

Maybe Michael and, say, Apollonia would not have gotten a divorce but their son would be even more "American" than Michael was, so he still would most likely have wanted to forge his own path rather than accede to Michael's wish for him to become a lawyer.

True Michael was unwilling to rely on anyone else to kill Sol and Mac because it was the only foolproof way.

I will have to watch that scene again but as I remember, it was short notice
They were panicking that they didn't know where the meeting was going to be when they were eating dinner

Suddenly if there is a lot of activity at and around the restaurant and more than usual men dining there even for the best veal in the city, I reckon it would attract unwanted attention

Also it is fleshed out in the novel, Sol had his people check the restaurant out, bathroom and all and a man was actually dining there, keeping watch

As regards a frontal assault, Sol could have had people guarding the restaurant too

That's my family, Kay. It's not me Michael ended up Mafia Don so there is no guarantee however all he wanted was after the law degree, Anthony can do whatever he wanted, to forge his own path but he got no support from Kay

As regards people getting a pass,

I reckon, Vito is seen through rose-colored glasses
He too was a cold blooded murderer despite his outward nice guy appearances like his threat of lethal force even in such simple business as the release of his Godson's contract

We can be brutal to Mike that an innocent girl was slaughtered horribly and treated like garbage but no mention of Tom

We are still debating Fredo could have been spared

I have, what am I missing?

Thanks Turnbull My misunderstanding, defiance is inaccurate

Vito secured the Army draft deferment for Michael, not anticipating that Michael would end up volunteering with the Marines
Michael didn't know Vito had secured him the Army draft deferment when Michael went to enlist with the Marines

What about Sonny, Tom and Fredo? They were all able bodied young men fit for military service too
Did Vito also manage to secure Army draft deferment for all of them

250,000 dollars Plus a monthly payment of 5% of the gross -- of all four hotels and Free gaming license
And before anyone slaughters! me....

Working Girl Murder

Of course. He could have bribed doctors to certify that they were "unfit" for service. Or he could have gotten one of his judges or politicians inform their Draft Board that they were "key employees" of the Genco Pura Olive Oil Company, and that without them, the company would go out of business, harming the war economy and putting other employees out of work. Another approach: Vito gave them "key positions" in the labor unions he controlled. Since the cooperation of unions was vital to the war effort, Vito's politicians would have no trouble convincing Draft Boards to grant them deferments or exemptions. Jimmy Hoffa, the Teamsters' powerhouse, used that ploy to escape the draft during WWII.

Too many variables like Sollozzo might not even be in the car

Is this the most cunning of "keep your friends close but your enemies closer"

As the book informs, Michael didn't want to do this. Connie nags Kay, Kay nags Michael. Michael agrees, but tells Kay that it doesn't fix Connie's real problem - which is that she married the wrong type of guy. He doesn't feign close friendship with Carlo.

I didn't mean to imply that you were missing anything.
I just thought as a GF fan,you'd get a kick out of all the story lines that didn't make it to the film.

Thank you Lou and you are not wrong
For clarity, I thought I had missed something, being always hungry for and getting a kick out anything Godfather except Puzo droning on and on about Lucy, Fontane and Genco

As regards the story lines, from what I remember,
1. Luca Brasi's how evil he was and why he was so loyal to Vito
2. paedophile Woltz

this kind of makes my point about how Vito is seen through rose-colored glasses
1. as long as Luca was killing for him, his baby can be thrown into a fiery furnace while still alive
2. as long as Woltz gave the movie part to his Godson, he can keep molesting children

Neri's how brutal he was and why he was so loyal to Michael

I couldn't agree more about the ponderous Lucy surgery storyline.
Another great part of the novel was the whole Bocchicchio saga. Professional hostages,hell of a way to make a living.

The negotiator / hostage for Michael-Sollozzo meeting, for Michael's safe return!

If my memory serves me right, a Bocchicchio who'd already murdered his former colleagues, for betraying him, in some scam business deal or similar, took the rap for Sollozzo and McCluskey killings that cleared Michael of all these 'false' charges