In their boathouse confrontation, Fredo told Michael that Johnny Olla said "There'd be something in it for me" if he gave Ola and Roth "information" about Michael's negotiating position for the Cuba deal.

What do you think Ola promised Fredo? Or, what do you think Fredo inferred from "something in it for me"?

In Fredo's case,I think a safe bet would be a large sum of cash.
After all,if Ola would have promised a piece of Roth's business interests.or something along the lines of bankrolling a Club for Fredo,then surely even Fredo would figure out that Mike would have known something was amiss,if anything like that came to pass.
Even if it wasn't a hit,once Mike saw Fredo in a non-Corleone business 'there would have been a very intense investigation.
So IMHO,the best course of action for Roth would have been to promise a nice fat envelope, perhaps as much as a half million,for Fredo.knowing that Mike would soon be a dead man.
This way,they pay out nothing,and Fredo has no way to collect.
I mean, what's Fredo gonna do,go to Tom and tell him that Roth had Mike killed,and he knows it because he helped set Mike up,but he was duped?

Well, I'll take him at his word that he didn't know it would be a hit, which means he wouldn't be promised a piece of the Corleone operation. I'll guess he'd want to go back to his original plan, manage one or several of Roth"s casinos, with points.

I once opined that Fredo, the master strategist,would have probably done it for a nice hat and a shiny new dime.

Fredo's word is not worth his....well....He didn't know “how do you say banana daiquiri"?

Fredo's only met superman

Fredo telling Michael about Questadt was painful to watch like pulling teeth

The Donship any role how important, nothing but the Donship would have sufficed for Fredo as we saw during Fredo's boathouse outburst Don Fredo [albeit Roth's puppet] The only way this could happen is if the current Don, Michael is dead

Donship is the exact carrot Ola dangled and promised Fredo after fuelling Fredo's resentment "I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over!"

What original plan?

The Donship

I'm going out on a limb here, but:

I'm guessing that Ola didn't promise Fredo anything specific--because he didn't have to. Here's the dialog:

"Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills -- and he said that he wanted to talk -- he said that you and -- and -- ROTH were in on a -- a -- big deal together. And that there was something in it for me if I'd help 'em out. He said that -- he said that -- you were bein' tough on the negotiations. But if they could get a little help -- and close the deal fast -- it'd be good for the family.

MICHAEL

You believed that story. You believed that.

FREDO

He said there was something in it for me -- on my own."

I'm guessing that Ola did "bump into" Fredo in Beverly Hills. He promptly steered Fredo to the nearest lounge, plied him with drinks, all the while commiserating about how rotten it was that deserving older brother Fredo got passed over for the Donship. So Fredo, getting more drunk, and more self-pitying, was ready to listen when Ola told him that if he gave Roth and him "help" with the Cuba deal, there'd be something in it for him. That "something" was the Donship--but Ola didn't have to explicitly say it, he let Fredo infer it.

Fredo obviously wasn't in on Michael's Cuba discussions and couldn't pass on inside info to Ola that might have earned him his reward. But, when Ola asked him to open the drapes to Michael's bedroom, Fredo finally saw something he could do to get his Donship. He might have asked Ola why he wanted the drapes opened, and Ola might have said, "We just wanna take your brother away somewhere and talk some sense to him"--just what Fredo might want to hear to assuage his "conscience" (and might have led him to his "you guys lied to me" remark later). But, the only way Fredo could even have a shot at the Donship was if Michael was dead--and Fredo knew it without being told.

He went to Las Vegas to learn the casino business.

Edit: just restating from previous threads, the Fredo we see in GF2 is quite a break from what we've seen before. In the book, he had nearly achieved legitimacy, and under Moe he was at least in a business that was respectable to the other gangsters. The sleazy guy we see in GF2 has never been seen before.

He went to Las Vegas to learn the casino business, to manage the Corleone casinos not Roth"s

Exactly the long and short of it, The Donship

I don't think Ola promised Fredo anything specific, and I don't think Fredo even inferred anything specific.

I think Fredo was being mostly honest with Michael about how the meeting with Ola went.

Ola recognized Fredo's desire for respect and just implied that Fredo wouldn't be stuck running Mickey Mouse nightclubs if the deal went through. That was all it took to get Fredo to betray Michael.

Fredo wasn't exactly a deep thinker, so I doubt he really considered exactly what he would end up with or how that would happen.

He is smart -- not like everyone says -- not dumb, smart

He know exactly what he would end up with and how that would happen.

LW, your explanation is more logical than mine .(I admitted I was going out on a limb).. But, I'd like to know how you interpret Fredo's "You guys lied to me" comeback to Johnny Ola.

My two cents worth!
Don't know Woltz then why all the deception?

He might have been mostly honest with Michael about how the meeting with Ola went but everything before and since was devious, dishonest, deceitful and he was quite the deep thinker, coming up with all those lies, lie after lie, he was feeding Michael

He also withheld information even after the first senate hearing

"I'm your older brother Mike and I was stepped over!" was no doubt what took Fredo to betray Michael.

I reckon the smart -- not dumb Fredo considered exactly what he would end up with, something good for him the Donship when Michael was dead--and Fredo knew it without being told, anything specific.

Coppola gave us enough ammunition! in just this one dialogue

among others Ola knew Fredo wouldn't know anything about Pentangeli-Rosatos meeting, let alone....same as “Fredo obviously wasn't in on Michael's Cuba discussions and couldn't pass on inside info to Ola”

I believe, the phone call was a warning, veiled threat “Your brother's not going to find out we talked”
Don't go squealing to your brother or else....

and to let us, the audience know who is the traitor in the family

If I may....my take, Fredo's “You guys lied to me” was because Ola didn't deliver on his promise - Michael dead and Fredo the new Don - and now Fredo is in deep....

• Fredo's “there was something in it for me -- on my own"

I doubt the astute, meticulous Roth would master plan such a do or die, critical operation of murdering a Don, in his own home, in his bedroom, without specifics [on vague / implied] without making it clear to Fredo that the reward is Donship or Roth would have instructed Ola to make sure Fredo listened good and inferred it [Ref: Turnbull] Hooked!

They need to ensure, imperative Fredo opened the drapes thus identifying Michael and Kay's bedroom, which is obviously of vital importance to the Tahoe shooting without which there can be no assassination and only the Donship carrot would get the job done

Besides even Fredo would have known there was no way he could operate outside the Corleone business, something on his own
Fredo knew the only way “Fredo wouldn't be stuck running Mickey Mouse nightclubs” is if Michael was dead


Quick and Clever too including after Ola's phone call

That's the way Pop wanted it Murderous legacy

I think the other half of the conversation is to let the audience know that Ola and Roth are the main adversaries. We're seeing one side of a chess game, and don't see much linking Ola-Roth to the shooters until we're very far along.



I don't know how anyone can speak with this sort of certainty about what's going on - in particular what some character must be thinking. Fredo, in particular, is hard to pin down because there's no character continuity from the book to first movie, and very little continuity in GF2.

Pete, you know you surprise me -- if anything in this life is certain -- if history has taught us anything -- it's that you don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family Ever.

We see enough of Ola-Roth side of the chess game to deduce they are the main adversaries and their linking to the shooters

We already know by the time of the phone call,
1. Vito never trusted Roth or his Sicilian messenger boy, Ola
2. It was Roth that tried to have Michael killed

Then the phone call,
1. He'd already helped them out and they need some more
2. you got me in deep enough already How so? Why because he helped set Michael up to be murdered?
3. Ola's assurance Just go along, everything will be alright this time, not like before when the shooters messed up

We see enough of the Mafia to speak with this sort of certainty that anyone born and bred, would know they can't set up shop, outside their Family, on their own

How do you solve a problem like Fredo? Roth obliged by attempting to kill Michael
He knew he'd be stuck with running Mickey Mouse nightclubs until Michael dead and Fredo the new Don

speech bubble for what some character must be thinking

Not even by the end of the phone call, but by the end of the movie, how do we KNOW that ROTH was behind it?

Michael told Pentangeli "It was Hyman Roth that tried to have me killed. I know it was him."

The "You guys lied to me" could mean anything. It's fun to speculate but there's really no indication in the film on what he means.

Maybe he said it because Ola promised him that there would be no violence. Or maybe, as TB has said in the past, it meant that it was going to be a kidnapping, not a hit. Maybe he meant what Lana said, but I don't think the Donship theory stands up to scrutiny.

Really, that would be an absurd thing for Roth to promise. How could he make that happen? Did Fredo envision Roth telling people that he killed Michael and now wants Fredo to be Don?

There seem to be varying opinions of Fredo's intelligence in this thread, but we know that Fredo is aware that "everyone says" he's dumb. Does he truly think that those same people would sit back and let him take over after Michael's death? That Rocco, Neri, Tom, etc. would stand aside for him? Even the dumbest version of Fredo couldn't have believed that, and wouldn't have trusted such a promise from Roth.

I think it was much more of a "We'll make it worth your while" hint than an explicit promise from Roth. But, if a promise was made, I think it wasn't the Donship, but more likely the promise Roth dangled in front of Michael - control of Roth's Havana empire upon his death.

Once again, logic is on your side, LW. Of course Roth never could have promised Fredo the Donship because he knew, even if Fredo didn't, that Rocco and Neri would have squashed him like a bug rather than let him take over--not even Tom would have supported him. But, did Fredo in his own mind know it? We see in the Trilogy how greed and lust for vengeance blind the perps to the obvious. Could Paulie seriously think he wouldn't be the prime suspect in setting up Vito? Did Carlo have any right to believe he could get away with setting up Sonny by beating up Connie for a second time?

My two cents worth!
Here's the thing Roth didn't have to make the Donship happen, obviously he can't but that was never his intention, of course if that did happen, he would have Don Fredo [albeit Roth's puppet]

All Roth wanted was Michael dead exactly what he set out to do and his job done
He goes back to living his retired investor on a pension exactly as he planned

Fredo was so consumed with being stepped over Roth knew that is the only carrot to get him, Roth's pawn, on board

I reckon Lana and Turnbull nailed it

Sure thing Evita Roth's always an empty promise carrot

I still believe the reward was Donship as well. “more likely - control of Roth's Havana empire upon his death” is too distant
Remember Roth's been dying of the same heart attack for twenty years!

My take, Fredo wants respect! now and within the Corleone empire

Roth well he -- he played this one beautifully
If Roth had succeeded in killing Michael, it's history making stuff, never been done before, not even Vito would have dreamt that such a thing could be possible

Roth would have no further use of Fredo, sits back and waits for all the Corleones' in-fighting to be over and then perhaps even picks up, the Corleones' business after all the bloodshed and nobody, figures out it was Roth all along

Fredo can't finger Roth nor show his hand, without incriminating himself in the process Checkmate!

Win-Win for Roth Winner takes it all

Yes, Roth's primary goal for the Tahoe attack was to get rid of Michael, who'd been horning in on his gaming empire ever since he returned from Sicily, and to blame it on Pentangeli. Secondarily, chaos would have ensued among the Corleone survivors--all of it to Roth's advantage. If Pentangeli were killed in revenge, or took it on the lam, the Corleones' NYC muscle would have fallen to the Rosatos, Roth's allies. A power struggle among Rocco, Neri and Fredo would have distracted and weakened the Corleones in Nevada. And even in the unlikely event that Fredo won, his coglioni would be forever in Roth's pocket.

Then we are agreed, Roth's empty promise carrot was Donship

No doubt Roth's Havana empire upon his death” is too distant and Fredo wants respect! now and within the Corleone empire

And even in the unlikely event that Fredo won, his coglioni would be forever in Roth's pocket. Don Fredo [albeit Roth's puppet]

Fredo's happy! over at Tahoe, playing! Don with Michael's men and they're letting him pretend....