Dare I say it, but while Gotti was in that apartment telling the government every crime that he ever committed on those bugs, if he had never mentioned Gravano, Gravano wouldn't have been arrested with Gotti that day in 1990. It's really hard to blame Gravano for flipping, it was Gotti who drug him into his racketeering case. They hardly had Gravano's voice, if at all. Now I don't buy the story that Gotti was going to throw Gravano under the bus or make him take the fall, but it was all Gotti's fault that they were on trial at that particular time nonetheless. I can't stand rats, but it's hard to blame Gravano here.

What nonsense ! Gotti wasnt throwing Sammy under the bus. Can you imagine telling Gravano, “ hey, they need me on the street so Im going to place all the blame on you”. Its absurd.
If Gravano’s name was never on tape and he was still indicted, Gravano still would of ratted. You have to understand, Gravano was supposed ro be this tough gangster and he isnt supposed to rat. He needed to save face.

On one of the many true crime specials from TV, they interview a prosecutor. The guy says they actually didn't want the deal with gravano. Main reason was they just didn't feel any need for him so why give him a break.

No idea which special that was on.

Gravano was a target as much as Gotti, as was Locascio. Gravano was getting indicted no matter what, and would have still ratted.

That entire roundup and subsequent trial was centered around those Gotti tapes, if not for those tapes and Gotti's big mouth, they wouldn't have been sitting in that courtroom AT THAT PARTICULAR MOMENT. Sure, they probably would've gotten them using some other kind of method later on down the line, but it was those tapes with Gotti's big mouth on them that ultimately brought them down at that point in time. No Gotti fanboys please, I want neutral posters only, because I'm not too fond of either Gotti or Gravano, but facts are facts.

Lenox, I plainly stated that I think the story of Gotti throwing Gravano under the bus is nonsense.

The trail centered more on Gravano's testimony, and other evidence. Gravano just used the tapes as his excuse. Even if there were no tapes, especially with that judge, they were all in trouble.

It was Gotti's 3rd or 4th trial in like 3 years. He was going down regardless IMO. You have to throw pretty much all hypotheticals out the window bc when the feds want someone, they're gonna get him. Especially the guy whose constantly rubbing their nose in it. Gravano was second in command in arguably the biggest cosa nostra family in the country at the time. He also was going down regardless of tapes, which to me, makes his ratting inevitable. He just uses those as his out.

Bingo! You nailed it right on the head. 100%....1000%

Gravano would’ve flipped if facing serious time

He was afraid of prison. The “it was me or John” thing is just a bunch of bullshit to assuage his sense of guilt for betraying everything he believed in. And also for PR.

Okay, let's say that Gravano would've turned out to be a rat regardless, I'm still not convinced that Gotti didn't bring himself, as well as many others, down with those tapes. I'm sure they would've gotten him no matter what, but who's to say that it wouldn't have been another 5 years if not for his big mouth. He was talking about the Castellano, Bilotti, DiBono, DiBernardo, and other murders on tape, long after they were committed. Absolutely no reason to bring those up. That's one of the rules, never discuss past murders. Those tapes are what allowed the feds to obtain a court-authorized arrest warrant for Gotti, Gravano, and Locascio that day. They probably would've brought them down eventually regardless, but they would've had to find some other way if wiretaps didn't work.

It's really hard to blame Gravano for flipping? That is an unbelievable statement. You are either trolling or this subject is very new to you

What I'm saying, I don't agree with what he did, because he did take an oath, I'm just finding it hard to hate him as much as other rats out there.

O course Gotti’s mouth on those tapes hurt them. Gotti talking on the tapes didnt throw gravano under the bus.

I think they both turned on each other. Gotti had a big mouth and it sounded like he was trying to pass all the blame onto Gravano. As for Gravano he is also full of shit. Even if Gotti didn’t open his big mouth I think Gravano would have flipped anyway

The way I understand it, with some of those guys who were whacked, it was Gravano who came to Gotti with the request to take them out. I'm thinking Gotti was just blowing off steam, and who knows, might've even ended up killing Gravano. If after that last trial Gotti had laid low and only discussed business on walk-and-talks, making wiretaps impossible, they probably could've lasted for several more years.

Liggio is right on Gravano coming to Gotti to convince him for the go ahead to kill people by making like they were undermining Gotti behind his back. Gotti started getting suspicious, , that is what was on those tapes. Gravano wanted an excuse for ratting.

Because he gave up so much more then just Gotti

. I don’t know about that. I’m sure on some of them Gravano went to him but the majority were certainly Gotti. I don’t think anyone ever had to convince Gotti to Kill someone. Even back to the Favara killing some feel that the wife pushed for it and although I agree she wanted him dead but so did Gotti he just was waiting for a time where he could crate an alibi. I do think both turned on each other and it was a partnership that was bound to dissolve at some point

I think a more interesting thing to consider is, in a hypothetical scenario where Gotti and Gravano aren’t indicted in 1990, does Sammy make a move against Gotti?

His Star was rising. He was already Underboss. He also didn’t like John’s increasing courting of the press. He had good relationships with other key members of other families. He was a tremendous earner. He also had whacked out several rivals.

He and John were also innately cut from two different cloths. Sammy was white collar and had been a strong Castellano man, and was arguably more important in the Family than John was before Paul’s slaying. Certainly, Paul valued Sammy more.

Obviously making a move on John would require taking out Peter, Gene, and John Jr as well

But would he have done it? Would he have had support?

Remember, he had made the pact with DeCicco to give John a year before they clipped him. So the thought of clipping John and taking over HAD crossed Sammy’s mind before

If Sammy had flipped for reasons of principle, just to get revenge on Gotti, he would’ve limited his ratting only to Gotti and not to Frankie Loc and so many other gangsters in the family. He flipped to save his own ass from prison. The “I wanted to get revenge on John” is just self promoting PR bs to create a mystique on himself, make himself look like less of a rat, and also to help him sleep better at night

The guy was no Macchiveli. He was a guy who was afraid of prison and didn’t believe in LCN anymore.

Good question, Jackie. And, it could be turned around: Would Gotti have whacked Gravano? The apartment tapes are filled with Gotti resenting Gravano's business success. Everything during Gotti's reign as boss was all about him--the "king." We heard him say he had DiB whacked because DiB failed to answer his summons. Seems like it wouldn't have taken too much more for him to get rid of Gravano.
. :

Turnbull:

I say that the relationship between Gotti and Gravano wouldn’t have lasted two more years even without the indictment in 90

Either Gotti would’ve taken Gravano out

Or Gravano would’ve gone after Gotti. In the latter scenario I can see sort of a miniature version of a Colombo style war breaking out in the Gambinos. Gravano with white collar loyalists - ironically, a lot of Castellano men - take out John, and the brothers, and son, which then provoke a rebellion by his hardcore followers and friends in the Family. Lasts maybe six months to a year.

I think that either way, one of the two men would’ve been dead by the end of 1992

Gotti’s ego was such he was becoming suspicious that Sammy would eventually outshine him and maybe as such move against him. And whatever admiration or affection he had had for Sammy was turning into resentment, paranoia and jealousy. And he had other made guys who were also jealous pissing in his ear. All it would take would be someone claiming Sammy was planning on a move, like what Angie did with DiB, and Sammy would be gone

For his part, I don’t think Sammy ever fully respected John. He respected his guts and his balls. But I do think the white collar part of Sammy looked down on John as an empty suit, a flashy degenerate gambler. As much as Sammy wants to play the I was a gangster card, he was as much a racketeer as Paul was. Difference is he got his hands actively dirty. But he was not from the Dellacroce street school. He was a white collar man who allied with John because it was at the time beneficial for him to do so. Before that he’d been one of Paul’s golden boys.

They were a pair of narcissists who were destined to destroy each other down the line

The Favara killing was way earlier, has nothing to do with this.

Exactly, plus he gave up people form other families. It was not about Gotti, it was all about Sammy being a self serving coward and punk.

. That’s Very True

So many what If's

Sammy had said a few times
John was being John...

However, it appears that Sammy, was turning out top be a "GREEN EYED MONSTER"

Gotti still lived in the same house he did from when he was first made.
Didn't really have very many businesses.

He wasn't trying to acquire any sort of wealth.

No real-estate buildings.

Gravano, had the 5,6, 7 businesses.

The tapes really would have sank Gravano's boat I believe more than Gotti's

More informed people like me would know the answer to this, but how much could the feds prove without the wire taps. I’d guess not much. Can’t say I’d feel any urge to go down with the ship if that’s the case

My understanding is that the tapes were the cornerstone of the case. He talked in such detail, and with such verbosity in that apartment that there was no mistaking what he was saying. At a minimum this was a guy who was aware of murders happening under his watch. At a bare minimum he basically gave them a RICO conspiracy case. The tapes alone were enough to give you say a 98% chance of giving them 25 to life

Gravano’s testimony was more corrobation of what Gotti himself had already said on those tapes. Gravano flipping was just the icing on the cake that turned that “98%” certainty of a conviction into 100%. But without the tapes, Gravano’s testimony could’ve been written off or, at least, discredited to a degree by a skilled lawyer

Gotti, in essence, unwittingly ratted himself out. His voice on tape was the trial’s star witness.

IMO, you're absolutely correct in your assessment.