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What did Michael want for Anthony? #1030754
02/28/22 03:15 PM
02/28/22 03:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
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Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

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One of the many script weaknesses in III is the ambiguity in the scene with Michael, Kay and Anthony at Michael's party. Michael wants Anthony to finish law school; Anthony is determined to be a professional singer. Michael seems to denigrate his prospects for success as a singer. He tells Anthony that having a law degree "is insurance...After that you can do anything you want. You can work for me." Anthony replies that "I will never be a part of your business." He says no to continuing law school and walks out.

The implication is that Michael wants Anthony to be his successor in the "legitimate" Corleone business empire. But, he also said Anthony could do anything he wanted after he got the "insurance" of a law degree." We might infer that he's advising Anthony in a fatherly way that the odds of success in music are slim compared with a career in law. But he also says Anthony "throws his life away...he throws greatness away."

What did he want for Anthony?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1030756
02/28/22 03:46 PM
02/28/22 03:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,466
No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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mustachepete  Offline
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No. Virginia
I think that you say it: he wants Anthony to be his successor in the legitimate side of the business. Perhaps ironically, that seems to be just what Vito wanted for Michael 30 years before.


As to "greatness", it seems that they're trying to pump up Immobiliare as something better than just a big company, something influential beyond its market cap.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1030856
03/02/22 07:36 PM
03/02/22 07:36 PM
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Evita Offline
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Evita  Offline
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No doubt there is ambiguity and it can be convoluted and unbalanced

He had achieved the semblance of legitimacy and was more "legitimate" than ever in III
I too reckon, lawyer Anthony to run the "legitimate" Corleone business empire and Mary, the Charity Foundation

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1030945
03/05/22 01:13 AM
03/05/22 01:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
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Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
You can work for me." Anthony replies that "I will never be a part of your business."

How did Anthony know so much about Michael's [old] business and Michael killing Fredo when
Quote
Michael: My dear children It is now better than several years since I moved to New York and I haven’t seen you as much as I would like to

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: mustachepete] #1030946
03/05/22 01:13 AM
03/05/22 01:13 AM
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Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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Originally Posted by mustachepete
I think that you [Turnbull] say it: he wants Anthony to be his successor in the legitimate side of the business. Perhaps ironically, that seems to be just what Vito wanted for Michael 30 years before
According to Vito [all going to plan]
1. Sonny – Don of the Corleone crime empire
2. Michael – Senator or Governor Corleone

What is our take as to,
  • Michael
Would Michael using his political connections help advance including bailing out the Corleones if required, making them invulnerable! [Vito's expectation?] or would he lead a civilian life, having nothing to do with the family business

Originally Posted by mustachepete
As to "greatness", it seems that they're trying to pump up Immobiliare as something better than just a big company, something influential beyond its market cap
Sure thing Pete, Archbishop Gilday's carrot! - Immobiliare not only makes Michael one of the richest men in the world, it also makes the Corleones' whole past history and the history of their family, washed away, all for just 600 million....

So Anthony would be head of the "legitimate" Corleone business empire including Immobiliare the European conglomerate worth $6 billion and starting with a clean slate as well

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Lana] #1030956
03/05/22 12:22 PM
03/05/22 12:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

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Originally Posted by Lana

How did Anthony know so much about Michael's [old] business and Michael killing Fredo

I bet Kay told him all about Michael's evil ways.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Lana] #1030957
03/05/22 12:29 PM
03/05/22 12:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Originally Posted by Lana

What is our take as to,
  • Michael
Would Michael using his political connections help advance including bailing out the Corleones if required, making them invulnerable! [Vito's expectation?] or would he lead a civilian life, having nothing to do with the family business
[l

I've always believed that, if Vito'd had his way, Michael as Senator or Governor would have worked to legalized gambling at the national or state level, which would have "legitimized" Vito's heritage and vastly enriched the Corleones' coffers( whyMichael moved the family to Nevada anyway). That would have made Sonny the head of an ever-diminishing criminal side of the Corleone family, and made him, in effect, Michael's strong-arm protector. It would have set up powerful resentment by Sonny, possibly leading to deadly violence--and an interesting additional GF movie.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1030977
03/05/22 09:58 PM
03/05/22 09:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 557
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Evita Offline
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Evita  Offline
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Posts: 557
Don't know Turnbull if Vito'd had his way, [all going to plan] would "legitimacy" been in the pipeline?
Vito I don't apologize -- that's my life didn't seem bothered about his "legitimized" heritage or legalized gambling

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1030979
03/05/22 10:02 PM
03/05/22 10:02 PM
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Posts: 557
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Evita Offline
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Evita  Offline
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Underboss
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Posts: 557
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Lana

How did Anthony know so much about Michael's [old] business and Michael killing Fredo

I bet Kay told him all about Michael's evil ways.

No doubt bad-mouthing him but how would she know about poor Fredo who drowned or even his betrayal?
I bet she never told Anthony about her evil ways and his brother she killed

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1030980
03/05/22 10:04 PM
03/05/22 10:04 PM
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Evita Offline
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Evita  Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
Michael wants Anthony to finish law school; Anthony is determined to be a professional singer. Michael seems to denigrate his prospects for success as a singer.

an opera singing Corleone -- well -- was -- well --

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Evita] #1030982
03/05/22 10:10 PM
03/05/22 10:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

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Posts: 19,512
AZ
Yes. unlike Michael, Vito did accept himself for what he was. But I can't see Vito simply sitting back in his old age and saying, ""Hey, look at my boy Michael--he's helping to feed the starving Africans...and he raised the minimum wage." I don't see him walking away from the rich empire he created through gambling. He had to have a plan for Michael to help transition his empire to legitimacy--and continued wealth.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1030986
03/05/22 11:54 PM
03/05/22 11:54 PM
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Lou_Para Offline
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Lou_Para  Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
Yes. unlike Michael, Vito did accept himself for what he was. But I can't see Vito simply sitting back in his old age and saying, ""Hey, look at my boy Michael--he's helping to feed the starving Africans...and he raised the minimum wage." I don't see him walking away from the rich empire he created through gambling. He had to have a plan for Michael to help transition his empire to legitimacy--and continued wealth.


Michael came to a fork in the road with the Solozzo killing. In spite of his denial,I believe it WAS personal,not business.He had a choice, either take the path to upper world legitimacy,like Vito wished for him,or enter the Family "business" Once he did the hit,there was no turning back,and I believe he knew this. His life would forever be changed..Vito realized this as well, hence his reaction when told that Michael killed Sollozzo. At that moment,all of Vito's hopes for Mike went out the window forever,and he sadly realized that Michael had achieved his "one destiny".

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Lou_Para] #1030990
03/06/22 01:18 AM
03/06/22 01:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 757
Australia
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Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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If Michael and Kay already married
Originally Posted by Lana
My take, for what it is worth!
I believe Michael still had the “destiny” of a life away from Mafia on his return from Sicily as Michael was cleared of all these 'false' charges of killing McCluskey and Sollozzo if Vito hadn't dragged Michael deeper into criminal life

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1030991
03/06/22 01:18 AM
03/06/22 01:18 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
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Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Lana

What is our take as to,
  • Michael
Would Michael using his political connections help advance including bailing out the Corleones if required, making them invulnerable! [Vito's expectation?] or would he lead a civilian life, having nothing to do with the family business
I've always believed that, if Vito'd had his way, Michael as Senator or Governor would have worked to legalized gambling at the national or state level, which would have "legitimized" Vito's heritage and vastly enriched the Corleones' coffers( whyMichael moved the family to Nevada anyway). That would have made Sonny the head of an ever-diminishing criminal side of the Corleone family, and made him, in effect, Michael's strong-arm protector. It would have set up powerful resentment by Sonny, possibly leading to deadly violence--and an interesting additional GF movie
Originally Posted by Evita
Don't know Turnbull if Vito'd had his way, [all going to plan] would "legitimacy" been in the pipeline?
Vito I don't apologize -- that's my life didn't seem bothered about his "legitimized" heritage or legalized gambling
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Yes. unlike Michael, Vito did accept himself for what he was. But I can't see Vito simply sitting back in his old age and saying, ""Hey, look at my boy Michael--he's helping to feed the starving Africans...and he raised the minimum wage." I don't see him walking away from the rich empire he created through gambling. He had to have a plan for Michael to help transition his empire to legitimacy--and continued wealth.
This is exactly the issue!

Vito had all these grand plans but no forward-thinking / planning about the family turmoil, it would cause

“Vito did accept himself for what he was” but burdened Michael with the near impossibility and unrealistic task of making decades old Mafia business legitimate
Whilst “He [Michael] had achieved the semblance of legitimacy and was more "legitimate" than ever in III” but at what cost

Vito's legacy – Thanks Pop!
  • Sonny's death if not rushing to his sister, Connie's aid surely as bad Don
  • Fredo's betrayal and death because Fredo was stepped over without Vito making any face-saving provision for him
  • Michael's murderous, miserable life
  • Connie's widowhood because of Vito's inaction in her spousal abuse and subsequent whoring

Michael wanted Anthony to head "the rich empire he created" [expanded] but the big difference is Anthony was presented with a clean "legitimate" slate but Anthony opted for "an opera singing Corleone -- well -- was -- well --"!

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Lana] #1031080
03/07/22 10:35 PM
03/07/22 10:35 PM
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Evita Offline
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Evita  Offline
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Vito and his grand plans

He, the orphan immigrant no doubt created the rich empire and became the top Mob Boss but as a father, Vito's legacy – Thanks Pop!
and unlike Michael, Anthony had options

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Evita] #1031232
03/11/22 03:00 PM
03/11/22 03:00 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Of course I agree with Pete and others that Michael wanted Anthony in his business and as his successor. The scene was vintage Michael the Manipulator--a contest of wills. Michael threw in the line, "then you can do whatever you want [after law school] as a sop to Kay, to (unsuccessfully) get her on his side, and to weaken Anthony's resolve. if Anthony had agreed to go to law school, it would have been a capitulation to Michael. He'd never be able to escape Michael's clutches after that.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1031251
03/11/22 09:18 PM
03/11/22 09:18 PM
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Evita Offline
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Evita  Offline
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Posts: 557
I reckon Michael was genuine and wanting Anthony to have the life he missed out on, regretting if he had finished his degree, he could have had a "legitimate future" and done whatever he wanted

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1031294
03/13/22 01:05 AM
03/13/22 01:05 AM
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Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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Underboss
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
Of course I agree with Pete and others that Michael wanted Anthony in his business and as his successor. The scene was vintage Michael the Manipulator--a contest of wills. Michael threw in the line, "then you can do whatever you want [after law school] as a sop to Kay, to (unsuccessfully) get her on his side, and to weaken Anthony's resolve. if Anthony had agreed to go to law school, it would have been a capitulation to Michael. He'd never be able to escape Michael's clutches after that.
I think you are being too harsh! on Michael

I also believe it was all about Anthony's education and Michael was being the loving father, genuinely wanting Anthony to get his law degree first – the insurance “he [Michael] missed out on”

Besides have you heard Anthony sing?!!

Kay of all people ought to know the importance of education and should have encouraged Anthony and been supportive instead of throwing Michael under the bus, as always - That's your father, Anthony It's not me

Re: What did Michael want for Anthony? [Re: Turnbull] #1032734
04/12/22 12:03 AM
04/12/22 12:03 AM
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Lana Offline
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Say what?! Michael entrusted Anthony and Mary, their children's education to Kay, their mother for their own best interests because the Corleone money, power and resources couldn't cut it!


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