If the Bonannos had around 300 wiseguys in their roster, then what of the other four? What was their peak strength in the 1950s?

Of course nobody has an exact count. Even wiseguy themselves are largely ignorant to the numbers unless the served in the hierarchies and were "told" the numbers each crew was allowed. But to the best knowledge I have, I believe the "firm" Commission allowance of each borgata hovered at; Mangano/Anastasia family 260-300; Luciano/Genovese family 250-300 (although some credible sources have also placed this crew at closer to 180-220 in total strength); Bonanno family 260-300; Profaci/Colombo family 150; Lucchese Family 120.

Those were the original ceilings set by the Commission back in 1931, when peace was declared after the infamous Castellammrese War of 1929-1931. Of course over the years this has all changed. ALL crews have been reduced in power and numerical strength.

The formal "inducted" in New York City was thought to never actually exceed 1500 +/- members. Then of course there were hundreds of top associate-members, and thousands and thousands of outer-ring associates of every stripe and value.

GV, now playing devil's advocate for Bill Bonanno. How was he view by his close associates? The loyalist? People like Hank Perrone? Was he even involved in anything as a soldier?

I really don't know, DP. The standard story is that a lot of his people resented his making Bill his consigliere. But. that doesn't strike me as reason enough for such wholesale desertions. Perhaps they thought Joe was dead, and they believed Bill was no wartime leader. I always go with "follow the money," but I don't know enough about how generous--or not--Joe was with his troops (Castellano was a known cheapskate with his troops, which was one major reason for his downfall).

Bill was a white collar guy not a blue collar guy. Those that were loyal to Joe Bonanno liked him and loved him. He was no street guy, but what he had on the west coast, and Connecticut was bringing in money, most of which was legit, while in Connecticut it was check forgery with Benny Flats an old Giovanni Bonventre associate, a small group of Bonannos operated in Connecticut, only a few made members and a dozen or so associates that were with Giovanni Bonventre crew, as far I know they didn't make in anyone up there since the books reopened in the 1970s, pretty sure it died out, with guys from New York having small pieces of action here and there.
As a soldier, no not really, he was only a soldier for a year before bumped up to capo and his father, Frank Labruzzo and Bonventre schooled him, but Joe made sure Bill knew the white Collar and legit business aspects, and even then Joe really was not teaching Bill and letting other guys teach him. Different atmosphere between New York and Arizona, if Bill did not have a silver spoon in his mouth and grew up in New York City more and was on the streets a lot more, I think things would have turned out different and he would not have needed all of his fathers guys advise all the time. Bill was really lost when his father was not around, and that really was Joe's doing.

NYM. I've been trying to get you to that conclusion for a while haha. Most people have underestimated Joe and The Bonannos during this period but that's mainly because most people don't care about what happened before 1957. Or if they do, it's focused on the Luciano ( and not even Genovese Family but the Meyer Lansky ) side of it. This largely leaves the true roots misunderstood. There was alot of working parts during that time. They make it seem like Luciano waved a magic wand and the Five Families were born. No, each group have infighting and instability in their respective territory and opposition to their Boss seat. The Mangano seat is questionable but understandable because it's possible the Albert Anastasia was probably powerful enough but not mature enough to be the Boss. The Manganos were the Family with the most outside forces at hand.

The Fact that Bonannos group started out on the losing side of the Castellamarese War, most people don't understand how powerful that contingent was from the 20s until the 60s mainly because of Bonanno and Magaddino falling.the Castellamarese had influence throughout the country. Several bosses/Hierarchies had CGD influence and it all connected to Bonanno. Joe had guys all over the country ( GV brought the Connecticut guys to my knowledge) Honestly, (and you'd really have to have know the majority of the Families to get this) the Family was disjointed being so spread out but for Bonanno himself, he was top 5 boss in power, strength and stability for 25 years before the Bananas War.

Don Peppino, I came to that conclusion some years ago. But growing up I was never told or realized as a young guy just how many Bonanno members there were all around us in NYC. So I do partially agree with you on that point.

And yes, Joe Bonanno had a more widely diversified family that most others crews, even most NY crews. The Bonanno's had an entire regime based up in Canada as we know, and a few members based in Florida, and some others in midwest and west coast states. Especially after Joe himself started to move west to Arizona, where they were estimated to have about a dozen members, and another dozen associate-members.

But I think you are getting a bit mixed up with just "who" was an "actual member of the Bonanno family," with the many men who originally had hailed from Castellammare del Golfo, Sicily, and later settled in other states across the U.S., after having first landed at Ellis Island and first resided in NYC before moving elsewhere.

Being an extremely tight knit group, 99.9% these mafiosi of Castellammrese heritage (although not Bonanno's per se) remained "amici" and "compare" with their New York based brethren. It was a strange phenomena, not unlike that of others groups (those from Palermo, Agrigento, Corleone, etc). But what makes the Bonanno's, and by extension all Castellammarese is the fact that they were elevated in stature and public exposure by the infamous "Castellammarese War" fought between 1929 and 1931 across the country, but most prominently in the New York "theatre of war."

Many future members who later migrated upstate to what became known as the Magaddino Family of Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY; or moved out west to Detroit's Zerilli family; some of Chicago's Aiello family; Joe Cerrito's and Jimmy Lanza's California families; among others across the country, were in fact from Castellammare del Golfo. Still others traveled back home to their ancestral hometown of Trapani like Frank Garofalo, or back and forth like the Buccellato's to and from America to name a few. This "thread" provided a continuing cross continental exchange of men and partnerships through the decades.

These men always maintained ties to Bonanno, and he and his family back to them. They were "compare" of course and had 'ties that bound" them forever. Many of these same men had fought side by side with Joe against Joe (The Boss) Masseria to later win that historical war. But these men were NOT necessarily members "under" Joe Bonanno per se. Some were. But many were not. Many were original members or affiliates under Salvatore Maranzano. Or were simpatico with him as a "supreme ruler" of the Castellammarese in America. They gave support to Maranzano and his NYC Castellammarese contingent. But many were in fact technically with "other borgatas."

So in a very real sense it later made it seem as though Joe Bonanno had "HIS" men all over the place. When in fact they were just allied as friends and former comrades in arms.

Understand what I'm trying to say here?

To give you another example. Joe Cerrito who became boss of a small family in California originally started out in NYC allied with Joe Profaci and his crew. For that matter Cerrito's brother Salvatore Cerrito remained a soldier in NYC's Profaci family long after his brothers moved west. After Joe Cerrito moved out west and became boss he was no longer "with" Joe Profaci, yet still remained close to him for decades through the original mutual bonds they shared.

The same can be said of the many mafiosi who migrated from NYC's Castellammarese "clan" up to Buffalo, NY. This includes "Buffalo Bill" Palmeri, Steve Magaddino, the DiBenedetto bothers, etc. They may have once been actual "members" under Maranzano/Bonanno clan, but after moving upstate they transferred membership to the Buffalo-Niagara Falls family. Yet, always stayed friendly with the Bonanno family.

Detroit's Gaspare Milazzo and others who moved to Michigan fall into the same category. In the City of Chicago too (think "Buster Domingo from Chicago"). Memberships were either transferred, or they struck out on their own and established a new borgata for themselves. These were the "originals" remember.

Joe Bonanno just capitalized on these connections which made it look to outsiders as though "he" had men all over the country. Which in fact was not true.

NYM, I understand you, I'm no novice on this subject. I don't disagree with anything you said. But two things can be true at the same time. I never said that theose bosses were under his control. You just more eloquently elaborated what I was trying to say. Most people don't understand the more Sicilian side of Cosa Nostra, so Bonanno's influence in that is underestimated. That's all I was say. The Valachi Charts misrepresented them as almost nothing in comparison but its understandable. The Family doesn't bolster a roster of name value or eye catching stories. The Bonannos require more research to gauge its true power. Unlike the Genovese Family (you could just look at the soldiers at that time and see the power). But I'm not mistaken about who was a member. The Bonannos had their own guys, in the places that they were known to be. I don't take every piece of info as gold. (If I did, I'd be saying Bonanno had 500 guys and was all over Europe and South America lol). I know the difference between who was made with him and who was "with him in spirit" (as an associate)

Another thing that is missed. Bonanno himself was the key. He was the Centerpiece to all the connections. The connection to the heritage. His problem was he started so young and his allies died out. He didn't have that 2nd generation (Bill) set up to continue that (or at least fast enough for what ended up happening). And he didn't adjust to make new allies. He became on the outside of the Commission because Luchesse and Gambino decided they could re-center it around them.

GV, Do you know of Joe Bonanno's connections to Roy Cohn (if any)??? I something thats say Cohn own The Lionel Corporation from 1960-1963 and Bonanno was a secret partner? The company was based in Germany

Don Pep, I agree that Bonanno was a powerhouse. As he stated in his book (and I believe him), he was a major power and leader on NYC Commission for years as a primary voice for the "conservative" older wing of the board (Profaci and Magaddino being the other two).

He was as strong, or stronger, than most of the family bosses (although technically all are equal). Nobody was fucking with him. As you say, it wasn't until the 1960s that Gambino and Lucchese, who were allied in mindset as well as by intermarriage, felt they could take a shot at him.

I do think that he became complacent in his control of the family and also too "confidant" that nobody would ever question him. By traveling too often away from his NYC base, it allowed the "wolf to raid the henhouse." (outsiders and disgruntled insiders who sought his ouster). It opened the door for trouble...and the trouble sure enough came his way.

And by putting his nincompoop son Bill in a position of power when the kid didn't even have a clue about being a hoodlum greatly art him in the eyes of his previously loyal followers.

PS: One more thing. I know (for a fact) that he was an extremely cheap man. He made sure he lived an exceedingly wealthy and rich existence, but held most of his guys down. DiGregorio, Morale, Tartamella, etc. Thats a fact thats well known among the guys in NY.

We are in agreement. It was also through looking at Bonanno that I gained more respect for Tommy Brown. He was the smoothest operator. A puppetmaster.

Question for you NYM
Besides DiGregorio, Sciacca and Rastelli, Who do you believe could've been a good candidate for Boss of the Family? (GV you can get on this answer as well)

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Thats an extremely subjective question. Ostensibly someone low-keyed first of all. I think had he not gone back to Sicily a man like Frank Garofalo was extremely capable. Others who I think fall into this category were Natale Evola, John Tartamella, Angelo Caruso, and possible Giuseppe Buccellato and later on even a Nick Marangello. But each of them had either died, were old, disinterested, or not in the running for one reason or another.

The problem is that we do not know there base intelligence or other key things that factor in to make a great leader; lack of greed, knowhow in the streets, personality dynamics (or lack thereof), organizational abilities over hundreds of men, etc.

So what may look good from the showroom window, might not fit so well once you try it on for size.

To your last point, that's probably what happened. Somehow DiGregorio had to to believe he had a good shot at really taking over. I personally believe, although Paul Sciacca wasn't necessarily a powerhouse, if Frank Mari and Mike Adamo were loyal, it would've worked out. They were very capable. Mari is a underrated guy, he was a earner and gangster

GV, can you speak to Mari, Smitty D'angelo and Mike Adams reputation on the street? Any words on Paul Sciacca?

The Lionel Corporation not that I know of.

Frank Mari came up in Galante regime. He was not Sicilian but a Calabrian. A heavy hitter and was into narcotics. He did not get along with Mike Sabella or Joe Notaro. When talking about a street guy, Frank was it. Grew up in Bensonhurst or near there, but mainly operated in the LES. Ran a gambling joint, robbery, narcotics (He actually visited Canada with Salvatore Giglio, to meet with the Cotronis, and they put him in touch with Angelo Tuminaro who helped distribute narcotics state side. Brother in law to Genovese soldier Carli DiPietro. Moved to Long Island. Sponsored by Domenico Sabella.

Mike Adamo, came up with his cousin Frank Bonomo in Giovanni Bonventre group. Was a hitter, and involved in bootlegging in the 1920s and 30s. Did not get along with Mike Sabella and John Morale. Ended up in Al DeMarines crew with his cousins, Frank Bonomo and Tony Adamo. By 1950s may have been placed in Natale Evola crew. Was involved in bookmaking, and hijacking, by late 1950s was in Gaetano D'Angelo crew, which was formerly Evola crew. Early 1960s seemed to be semi active, and more into white Collar crimes.

Paul Sciacca very low key. He had a lot of power in New Jersey since he owned two banks in that state. Most of his power came from the garment industry, and through there he met Tommy Lucchese and his fortunes began to increase with that friendship. Despite what some write about him, he was not involved in narcotics, but when he became boss, he did take envelopes from drug deals, which is how he was arrested but the charges were dismissed. After that he stepped down as boss and Evola became boss. Not really a street guy per say, but did earn his stripes. Unknown what crew he was in, but by the late 1950s, Joe Bonanno promoted him to Capo, his crew was split between New Jersey and Brooklyn.

I also think a "dark horse" candidate might have been an excellent fit as a boss for that family. If you look at their membership many were largely unrecognized as members for decades. Many were never even identified. Period!

The Bonanno's were a shadowy borgata for sure. The fact that Joe Valachi during his 1963 Senate testimony could only ID a dozen or so men also greatly helped them evade detection in future years.

Valachi came from Harlem. He never hung around Queens or Brooklyn and knew very little about who operated there. He was a Manhattan and Bronx guy. Thats why so many men from crews that operated up that way were ID'd for the feds. Typically Genovese, Gambino, and Lucchese guys.

If you notice, neither Profaci's or Bonanno's members were extensively listed. Most didn't operate the same areas Valachi did.

Seriously, I didn't read all the comments, I'll just say that after Vito Genovese I don't know of another mob guy with bigger balls..They were both hated and didn't care...It was almost like, come get if ya got balls enough..Nobody seriously went after either one of them..

Imagine trying to take down the commission but they fear you enough to just ban ya ??

I have a "dark horse" Hierarchy for you NYM. It actually proved harder then meets the eye. Alot of guys dead or in jail by 1968 but here goe:

Boss: Anthony "Tony" Riela- respected guy across the board, old timer with connections to mid-west Families. Representing New Jersey, he brings "new blood" to the administration.
Underboss: (I'll go with two). Nicky "Glasses" Marangello- Good Earner
John Morales - tried and true during the Bananas War, I think he could make up for the "street presence" Marangello's lacks. (Plus Rusty was too wild)
Consiglieri: Paul Sciacca - Smart business guy and it gives a olive branch to the Long Island guys.

I think this could've been a good transition until Joe Diamond and Galante got out of jail.

GV, What was Johnny Burns Reputation on the street? Why wasn't he strong enough to either take over (meaning win gor the Bonanno side) or still be involved in the Hierarchy afterwards???

IMO, Johnny Burns didn't have the capabilities to run the family as boss, nor did he have a forceful enough personality to command the family troops. (his brother Sally Burns had even less).

Johnny Morale was largely just a proxy and puppet of Joe Bonanno, who installed Morale as "underboss/acting boss" in his stead because he was malleable and easily controlled. (a smart move actually). Bonanno felt "safe" with Morale.

Thats why as soon as Bonanno was ousted, Morale was pushed to the side and essentially shelved and forgotten about. He didn't have enough influence on his own. He just faded from the scene and resigned himself to an early retirement.

He was no Evola, Galante, or even Rastelli.

Why did Bonanno kill his first two Consiglieres?

Francisco Italiano was in opposition to Joe for the Boss seat in 1931. He didn't have enough standing within the Family to challenge him but was made Consigliere. I don't know the specifics (maybe GV has insight) but I imagine they couldn't work together. Italiano was probably subversive.

Fillippo Rappa took his spoke but was replaced by John Tartamella. He was killed in 1944 for unknown reasons

NYMafia posted about John Morale, I'll add that sitdowns in John's favor and later his rulings in sitdowns didn't make him many friends or allies on the streets. Everyone is going to lose in sitdowns but Morale won when he should not have and ruled in the wrong direction of a fair rulings. A lot of us, and one of the reasons, Asaro and Grimaldi went to Digregorio faction by 1965/66, cause they could not get a fair ruling with John Morale.

Frank Italiano wanted the top spot, when he lost he started to undermine Joe Bonanno. Joe could have killed him right there as his right, but Bonanno had respect for the Italiano family in Florida and Sicily. He also wanted his new reign a peaceful one, when those were denied to him, Joe Bonanno ordered him killed.

Rappa was killed for stealing money from the family. Joe Bonanno said he was shelved, but that was just for the book and his image to the public. Rappa stole money but most likely from one or more of Joe Bonanno personal businesses. Rappa was not killed quick and Joe Bonanno was vicious with his justice l, which is something alot of writers over look. There two meeting between Bonanno and Rappa before Rappa was killed, which leads me to believe Joe Bonanno was trying to get his money back and find a peaceful solution. I think in Joe Bonanno head he really wanted Rappa to be shelved but Rappa made it difficult and he also had to send a message to his family that he was not a weak boss, cause if they sensed he was weak, even his strongest allies in his family would have him killed and replaced.

Dilorenzo, Carmine Galante had balls just as big as Vito Genovese, but was not as smart.

Several questions:
1. Would Bonanno been better off if he made John Tartamella as consigliere in 1931 instead of Italiano?
2. What impact would Galante have on the Banana Wars if he wasn't carted of to prison?
3. Bonanno was quite a greedy boss, but did he impose the $25 monthly street tax on his men as Profaci did?

GV, your knowledge of this Family is invaluable IMO.

What was the beef between Morale, The Asaros and The Grimaldis???

Do you know of Bill Bonanno's uncle Jimmy DePasquale and Joseph DeFilippo??? What were their reputations if you know.

Also have you heard of a suspected soldier named Michelangelo Vitale??? A fellow Castellamarese out of Brooklyn.

@NYMafia; Dob_Peppino; GIacomo_Vacari

I’m enjoying your knowledge about the “old Bonanno family” Pre-1970’s….

Very interesting; I didn’t realize how powerful they were.

I wish someone could write an extensive 500+ book for each of the 5 Families from their beginning to the present, sounds like some of you here are qualified to do one for the Bonannos.

I think I uncovered, why Francisco Italiano was at least kept around for awhile. He did have some people who voted for him to be the boss but If he was related to the Italianos of Tampa then they were from Belmonte, Sicily which is close to Villabate. They had association to Joe Profaci. It's probable that Francisco himself was connected to both. It makes sense as to why Bonanno wouldn't just knock him off in 1931'.

When I saw the Valachi Charts, I knew there was more than meets the eye. I think the fact that there isn't a good informer (soldier/aasociate who was on the street) from that time to give the details like the other Families.

This group was comparable to any powerhouse Family particularly peaking from 1947-1960. Not the most sophisticated nor were they the most organized (meaning structurally in comparison to The Luciano Genovese Family) but for a time the were definitely the closest (as far a personal relations go) and tight knit. That gets thrown around alot but it can't be understated. The blood ran deep in this borgata.
With everything revolving around Bonanno, it work for him until the empire was too spread out to work any longer.

Someone asked about Joe's Greed and a street tax? I don't know if he did the exact same thing as Profaci. I believe Bonanno's legit business portfolio and the drug trade was lucrative enough. He didn't need to be the NY boss anymore and get tribute. It was that simple. The other guys wanted to eat but I think all of them were out in deep waters playing with Tommy Lucchese and Carlo Gambino.