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Corleones destiny #1023644
11/13/21 07:14 PM
11/13/21 07:14 PM
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Evita Offline OP
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What could the Corleones have done differently that may have changed the way things turned out

The starting point is the flash back scene
1. Sonny had just introduced Carlo to Connie
2. Michael had enlisted in the Marines

Scenes following
1. Their wedding
2. Sollozzo's meeting

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Evita] #1023678
11/14/21 01:36 AM
11/14/21 01:36 AM
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Lana Offline
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  • Vito and Carlo
Quote
Tom: Now your new son-in-law, give him something important?
Vito: Never Give him a living but never discuss the Family business with him
If Vito had such contempt for Carlo why allow the marriage in the first place? the trigger that changed the course of events

Carlo had high hopes!
Quote
Carlo: Hey look, Sonny, Tom I'd like to talk to you maybe after dinner. I could be doing a lot more for the Family

Sonny was forced to get involved in Carlo beating up Connie because of Vito's inaction resulting in Sonny's death and.....

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Lana] #1023682
11/14/21 03:14 AM
11/14/21 03:14 AM
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Turnbull Offline
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Start right near the beginning, after Vito was shot:

Tom said it would be impossible to gun down a police captain. And, when Michael volunteered to kill Mac and Sol, Tom scoffed. But Michael replied:
"I'm talking about a cop -- that's mixed up in drugs. I'm talking about a dishonest cop -- a crooked cop who got mixed up in the rackets and got what was
coming to him. That's a terrific story. And we have newspaper people on the payroll, don't
we, Tom? And they might like a story like that."

Michael should have followed his own advice because he was right: the newspapers had already played up Vito's shooting. So, instead of Michael killing Mac, he and Tom could have leaked Mac's involvement with Sol the drug dealer and Vito's shooting to the reporters on the Corleones' payroll. They'd have given it a tremendous sendoff. The Police Commissioner, embarrassed, would have had to suspend or transfer Mac, and assign police protection to Vito in hospital to prevent further embarrassment. The entire police force would have been ordered to hunt down Sol and kill him, "attempting to escape," to prevent him from squealing on his relationship with Mac. Michael, his hands clean, could have married Kay and gone back to college. And we wouldn't have had a Godfather Trilogy.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Turnbull] #1023739
11/14/21 07:35 PM
11/14/21 07:35 PM
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Evita Offline OP
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Vito three down
1. allowing their marriage
2. Vito's inaction
3. getting shot

I reckon, Michael was talking about dead McCluskey that the newspaper people on their payroll might like a story like that after the dishonest, crooked Police Captain was killed

Will they publish he is mixed up in the rackets as terrific story as it is, when he was still alive? What happens until all this is arranged?
What if McCluskey finds a way to let Sollozzo have another fatal attempt in spite of the armed private detectives protecting Vito

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Evita] #1023757
11/15/21 02:39 AM
11/15/21 02:39 AM
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Turnbull Offline
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Evita, Michael was saying that the reporters on the Corleones' payroll would love a story about how a dead, crooked Mac (killed by Michael) got what was coming to him. I'm saying that they'd love even more to have the opportunity to expose a live, crooked cop mixed up with drugs and murder because, when the Police Commissioner fired, suspended or transferred Mac, they could brag that they did a "civic duty" by "exposing corruption."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Evita] #1023759
11/15/21 05:08 AM
11/15/21 05:08 AM
Joined: Aug 2020
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Adelaide, Australia
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lucab19 Offline
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Another one on Vito: his continued keeping of Fredo on his "shit list" and promotion of Michael to Don.

This only festered and led to Fredo being easy prey for 'friendly' lips. This turned out to be catastrophic for Michael's family. Small f.

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Turnbull] #1023769
11/15/21 12:03 PM
11/15/21 12:03 PM
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The Last Woltz Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
Evita, Michael was saying that the reporters on the Corleones' payroll would love a story about how a dead, crooked Mac (killed by Michael) got what was coming to him. I'm saying that they'd love even more to have the opportunity to expose a live, crooked cop mixed up with drugs and murder because, when the Police Commissioner fired, suspended or transferred Mac, they could brag that they did a "civic duty" by "exposing corruption."


But Sollozzo was the problem, not McCluskey, McCluskey was just collateral damage.

Michael's whole point was that they can't wait, because Sollozzo was going to kill Vito ("That's the key for him.")

How long would it take to get McCluskey fired, transferred or suspended? Days? Weeks? Months? Even once he was dead, it seemed to take a while for the newspapers to get enough out on McCluskey to allow things to loosen up. It surely would take longer if McCluskey was still alive.

And getting McCluskey out of the picture doesn't mean that Sollozzo is no longer a threat to Vito. It just makes Sollozzo a bit easier to kill.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Corleones destiny [Re: The Last Woltz] #1023813
11/15/21 08:54 PM
11/15/21 08:54 PM
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Evita Offline OP
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Don't know Woltz Sonny had a hundred button men on the street 24 hours a day looking for Sollozzo but that Turk didn't show one hair on his ass!

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: lucab19] #1023814
11/15/21 09:01 PM
11/15/21 09:01 PM
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Evita Offline OP
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Vito has to answer for his failings which changed the course of, caused all these unfortunate but avoidable events including Sonny's and Fredo's deaths, Michael's misery, Connie's widowhood

'Cause a man who doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man Go figure

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Evita] #1023963
11/18/21 01:02 AM
11/18/21 01:02 AM
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Lana Offline
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The more we discuss Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man
Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino and Fredo Thanks! Pop

Michael still “could have married Kay and gone back to college” even after killing McCluskey and Sollozzo, on his return from Sicily if Vito hadn't dragged Michael into the Corleone crime organization deeper

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Evita] #1023964
11/18/21 01:02 AM
11/18/21 01:02 AM
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Lana Offline
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among others -
  • Sonny
1. Sonny letting Sollozzo know, Sonny was hot for Sollozzo's narcotics deal
2. Sonny was a hothead, can't talk business with him yet Vito would have made Sonny Don if Sonny had not been killed
3. Sonny also taking the risk visiting his goumar Lucy's apartment during the gangland warfare

  • Tom and Vito
Tom not digging deep enough to unearth the Barzini connection with Sollozzo's narcotics trade deal
Tom obviously stopped when Tom unearthed the Tattaglia connection and looked pretty pleased with his handiwork when Sollozzo said “My compliments”

Then Vito would have upped his personal protection and been ready for Barzini too

  • Tom and Michael
Tom letting his one and only client, Michael commit perjury because Tom had no idea Pentangeli had survived and was the secret weapon being prepared in custody, to corroborate Michael's murderous, nefarious power as the head of the Corleone crime family

Tom also had no idea Roth was returning to America after being refused refuge in various other countries

oh, well! Tom was not a wartime Consiglieri

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Evita] #1023965
11/18/21 01:02 AM
11/18/21 01:02 AM
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Lana Offline
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among others -
  • Michael
Michael having got hit by thunderbolt Appollonia, blowing his cover, tells Appollonia's father Vitelli in front of his bodyguards – tempting Fabrizio to turn traitor
Quote
I am an American, hiding in Sicily My name is Michael Corleone There are people who'd pay a lot of money for that information

Michael [and Vito too] did nothing to nurture Fredo unless we count Sonny packing Fredo off to learn the casino business
Poor Fredo copped it from everyone - Vito, Carmela, Sonny, Michael, Greene, Deanna

Michael went away soon after the Tahoe bedroom shooting, then was away for Christmas, New Year comes home and doesn't even offer comfort and support to his wife Kay who had just had a miscarriage

Then goes and talks to Carmela, his mother about losing their family instead of Kay, his wife Go figure!
How did Mama know Kay had lost their baby?!

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: The Last Woltz] #1023966
11/18/21 01:02 AM
11/18/21 01:02 AM
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Lana Offline
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When the said Police Captain is found dead right next to a man named Virgil Sollozzo whose business was narcotics.....

Quote
Michael: What I want -- what's most important to me is that I have a guarantee: No more attempts on my father's life
Sollozzo: What guarantees could I give you, Mike? I am the hunted one! I missed my chance You think too much of me, kid I'm not that clever All I want, is a truce
Truce until Sollozzo finds another way! this time fatal for Vito

It seems McCluskey was taking bribes left, right and centre even openly dining with narcotics man Sollozzo
Wasn't the Corleones paying McCluskey?!

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Lana] #1023969
11/18/21 02:26 AM
11/18/21 02:26 AM
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Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted by Lana

Wasn't the Corleones paying McCluskey?!

The novel says they were. Tom told Sonny that "he's greedy and untrustworthy to do business with."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Turnbull] #1023973
11/18/21 04:16 AM
11/18/21 04:16 AM
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Capri Offline
Capo
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Capo
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others paying him more lol

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Lana] #1023974
11/18/21 04:21 AM
11/18/21 04:21 AM
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Capri Offline
Capo
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Capo
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oh, well! Tom was not a wartime Consiglieri Vito slippin' Michael blowing his cover
women and children can be careless, but not men.

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Evita] #1023987
11/18/21 08:34 AM
11/18/21 08:34 AM
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No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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Quote
The more we discuss Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man
Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino and Fredo Thanks! Pop

Michael still “could have married Kay and gone back to college” even after killing McCluskey and Sollozzo, on his return from Sicily if Vito hadn't dragged Michael into the Corleone crime organization deeper


Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell. Vito's woes could be blamed on his father, who could blame his father, etc. There's certainly no evidence that Vito forced Connie to marry Carlo. What we see is that Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo. It's reasonable to assume that he discouraged the wedding. It can't be Vito's fault that Connie insisted on the wrong man, or there's no narrative. We know from the book that Vito tried to keep Sonny out of the rackets, and that Sonny ended up a teen holdup man. We know that Vito was comatose when Michael crossed the threshold and took part in the war planning. The best-laid plans of even the most-powerful are easily defeated by the whims of the next generation. That's life.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Corleones destiny [Re: mustachepete] #1024008
11/18/21 03:12 PM
11/18/21 03:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
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olivant Offline
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Well said Pete.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Corleones destiny [Re: mustachepete] #1024022
11/18/21 07:19 PM
11/18/21 07:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
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Evita Offline OP
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Originally Posted by mustachepete
Quote
The more we discuss Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man
Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino and Fredo Thanks! Pop

Michael still “could have married Kay and gone back to college” even after killing McCluskey and Sollozzo, on his return from Sicily if Vito hadn't dragged Michael into the Corleone crime organization deeper


Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell. Vito's woes could be blamed on his father, who could blame his father, etc. There's certainly no evidence that Vito forced Connie to marry Carlo. What we see is that Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo. It's reasonable to assume that he discouraged the wedding. It can't be Vito's fault that Connie insisted on the wrong man, or there's no narrative. We know from the book that Vito tried to keep Sonny out of the rackets, and that Sonny ended up a teen holdup man. We know that Vito was comatose when Michael crossed the threshold and took part in the war planning. The best-laid plans of even the most-powerful are easily defeated by the whims of the next generation. That's life.

I also reckon Michael still could have had a life away from Mafia if not for Vito no doubt

True Pete Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell.

There is no indication from what was seen in the movie that he discouraged the wedding
If Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo why let him into the family, to marry his only daughter?

As we debated in Vito and Fredo thread:
I reckon it is not complaining or blaming their parents It is not interfering, it is parental guidance

Sonny's philandering, Connie's bad choice of husband, Carlo's wife beating, Fredo's sexual excess, Moe slapping him around all went undisciplined Fredo was left rudderless

Vito's action, inaction and slip ups adversely affected every one of his children and his son-in-law including violent deaths

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Lana] #1024023
11/18/21 07:25 PM
11/18/21 07:25 PM
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Evita Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lana

Michael went away soon after the Tahoe bedroom shooting, then was away for Christmas, New Year comes home and doesn't even offer comfort and support to his wife Kay who had just had a miscarriage

Then goes and talks to Carmela, his mother about losing their family instead of Kay, his wife Go figure!
How did Mama know Kay had lost their baby?!

No doubt that was painful to watch

How did Mama know? Tom wouldn't have told her Kay unlikely So how?

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Turnbull] #1024035
11/19/21 01:39 AM
11/19/21 01:39 AM
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Lana Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Lana

Weren't the Corleones paying McCluskey?!

The novel says they were. Tom told Sonny that "he's greedy and untrustworthy to do business with."
It makes sense McCluskey would be taking bribes and kickbacks from every criminal big and small

However McCluskey pulling the “guinea hoods” guarding Vito in the hospital off so that Sollozzo can finish Vito off, would get around and as “greedy and untrustworthy” as McCluskey is, wouldn't it make all the others paying McCluskey off, jittery, causing problems

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: mustachepete] #1024036
11/19/21 01:39 AM
11/19/21 01:39 AM
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Lana Offline
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Originally Posted by mustachepete
Originally Posted by Lana
The more we discuss Vito, the more I am baffled how Vito is fêted as the family man
Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused the misery of every one of his children to their gloom and doom including the violent deaths of Santino and Fredo Thanks! Pop

Michael still “could have married Kay and gone back to college” even after killing McCluskey and Sollozzo, on his return from Sicily if Vito hadn't dragged Michael into the Corleone crime organization deeper

Characters have to be credited with free will, or there's no story to tell. Vito's woes could be blamed on his father, who could blame his father, etc. There's certainly no evidence that Vito forced Connie to marry Carlo. What we see is that Vito disliked and distrusted Carlo. It's reasonable to assume that he discouraged the wedding. It can't be Vito's fault that Connie insisted on the wrong man, or there's no narrative. We know from the book that Vito tried to keep Sonny out of the rackets, and that Sonny ended up a teen holdup man. We know that Vito was comatose when Michael crossed the threshold and took part in the war planning. The best-laid plans of even the most-powerful are easily defeated by the whims of the next generation. That's life
Sure thing Pete “Characters have to be credited with free will” to mess up! “or there's no story to tell”

  • What did Vito do, to guide, mentor, nurture and embrace his different sons?

Fredo
especially the son who seemingly was not cut out for Mafia life
Vito's dismissal of Fredo “And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --” Thanks! Pop

Fredo feeling inadequate that Fredo was a failure because of the pressure Fredo was under that he was not more like Pop
Then adding insult to injury Fredo was stepped over without making any face-saving provision for him

Sonny
If Sonny had not been killed rushing to Connie's aid [due to Vito's inaction] Sonny getting killed as a bad Don was just a matter of time

Michael
Michael was cleared of all these 'false' charges of killing McCluskey and Sollozzo
So why didn't Vito let Michael try “a life away from Mafia” on his return from Sicily instead of dragging Michael deeper into criminal life

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Lana] #1024087
11/19/21 08:30 PM
11/19/21 08:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
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Evita Offline OP
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Evita  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lana
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Lana

Weren't the Corleones paying McCluskey?!

The novel says they were. Tom told Sonny that "he's greedy and untrustworthy to do business with."
It makes sense McCluskey would be taking bribes and kickbacks from every criminal big and small

However McCluskey pulling the “guinea hoods” guarding Vito in the hospital off so that Sollozzo can finish Vito off, would get around and as “greedy and untrustworthy” as McCluskey is, wouldn't it make all the others paying McCluskey off, jittery, causing problems

Maybe the Corleones were not paying him because setting Vito up for Sollozzo to finish him off is not the act of a friend

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Evita] #1024139
11/21/21 01:04 AM
11/21/21 01:04 AM
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Lana Offline
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Tom and Sonny talk about McCluskey as a brand new development?

Quote
Tom: I found out about this Captain McCluskey who broke Mike's jaw...
Sonny: What about him?
Tom: Now he's definitely on Sollozzo's payroll and for big money McCluskey has agreed to be the Turk's bodyguard
It seems to me McCluskey was not on the Corleones payroll? and from what we saw in the movie – McCluskey “setting Vito up for Sollozzo to finish him off” - sort of makes sense now....

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Lana] #1024152
11/21/21 08:23 AM
11/21/21 08:23 AM
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Capri Offline
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They no need for Captain McCluskey politicians in Vito's pocket still “setting Vito up for Sollozzo to finish him off” fanciful

How did Mama know Kay had lost their baby?!

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Capri] #1024185
11/21/21 08:45 PM
11/21/21 08:45 PM
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No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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No. Virginia
Originally Posted by Capri
How did Mama know Kay had lost their baby?!


Maybe I'm misunderstanding: I believe that Mama lived as part of their household, so would know whenever Kay was not healthy.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Corleones destiny [Re: mustachepete] #1024193
11/22/21 03:22 AM
11/22/21 03:22 AM
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Capri Offline
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So she would know Fredo betrayal What she thought would happen to him

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Capri] #1024234
11/22/21 11:08 PM
11/22/21 11:08 PM
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Evita Offline OP
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Mama would have known of Fredo's betrayal and that he was banished from the compound but would have never thought he would be killed

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Lana] #1024795
12/01/21 09:32 PM
12/01/21 09:32 PM
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Evita Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Lana
Tom and Sonny talk about McCluskey as a brand new development?

Quote
Tom: I found out about this Captain McCluskey who broke Mike's jaw...
Sonny: What about him?
Tom: Now he's definitely on Sollozzo's payroll and for big money McCluskey has agreed to be the Turk's bodyguard
It seems to me McCluskey was not on the Corleones payroll? and from what we saw in the movie – McCluskey “setting Vito up for Sollozzo to finish him off” - sort of makes sense now....

It is fleshed out in the book McCluskey was peeved he has to return the money because Sollozzo's men couldn't get to Vito
He was also under the impression Michael would surrender after killing Sollozzo It never occurred to him he was his next victim

Re: Corleones destiny [Re: Evita] #1025026
12/06/21 06:18 AM
12/06/21 06:18 AM
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Capri Offline
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Originally Posted by Evita
Mama would have known of Fredo's betrayal and that he was banished from the compound but would have never thought he would be killed

Connie knew too

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