Your thoughts?

No. I blame Sonny for Sonny's death.

However, Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death.

Michael is the ultimate hypocrite. He blames Tom - entirely unjustly - for Sonny's death. Yet he murdered Fredo.

This theory is often floated but nothing I see supports it

My take Sonny is the one solely responsible for his own death and I doubt anyone blamed anyone for Sonny's death
Whilst Carlo helped set the trap, it was indeed Sonny who made himself the easy target

After Connie's phone call, nobody could have stopped the enraged wild bull Sonny charging out not even Luca Brasi!

among others -

Godfather

• Sollozzo to Michael in the car taking Sollozo and McCluskey to their deaths!

I hope you're not a hothead like your brother Sonny You can't talk business with him

• Tom to Sonny just before Sonny's “Pop had Genco look what I got”

Yeah, well you're getting a great reputation! I hope you're enjoying it

• Vito to Tom in the Fish tank scene

Santino was a bad Don, rest in peace

Godfather II

• Sonny's daughter at Vito's surprise birthday party flashback scene

Mommy, Daddy's fighting again

Godfather III

• Michael muttering to himself about Vincent when discussing the trouble between Vincent and Joey Zasa

Temper like his father

I think that Vito would have told Michael that no one could tell Sonny what was good for him.

I think that any trouble between Michael and Tom would be that they're both intellectuals. This makes Tom somewhat redundant, but it also makes him a potential critic - and Michael can't abide that.

How you support your theory? No blaming

I see no blaming either

Of course Oli and everyone else here who took that position are right: Sonny's uncontrollable temper and poor judgment sealed his fate. The slam-dunk certainty that Sonny, after hearing that Carlo beat Connie again, would rush out to her, in the middle of a war, unprotected, was the basis of Barzini's plot against him. It couldn't miss.

That's the reason I think Tom had some culpability in Sonny's death--his background and training made him unprepared for that eventuality. As a lawyer and a non-Italian uninvolved in the muscle end of the business, he was an excellent Family front man for dealing with the largely Irish and Jewish judges and politicians Vito needed in NY, and the Mormon officials in Nevada. But, as Michael said, he was not a wartime consigliere. Lawyers are trained to conciliation and negotiation, not in waging bloody wars in the streets. And, law is logical, orderly and rational--Tom wasn't on the lookout for the irrational need--compulsion--for vengeance that is so much a part of traditional Sicilian male "honor. Whatever else Carlo was or wasn't, he was a Sicilian. I'm sure Barzini had no difficulty recruiting him to beat up Connie again by telling him that it was a surefire plan to redeem his "honor" after Sonny humiliated him in the street. Tom wouldn't have seen it coming.

Tom admitted it to himself, in the novel: After learning of Sonny's murder he concludes that he "was no fit wartime consigliere...old Genco would have smelled a rat." Of course he would have. Tom didn't.

I think you are being too harsh! on Tom

Sicilian Vito the most experienced, long reigning top Mafia Don “wasn't on the lookout for the irrational need--compulsion--for vengeance” by Sollozzo after Vito's refusal to help with Sollozzo's narcotics trade

As Vito said in the Garden scene Sicilian “Santino was going to have to go through all this” ie: Don in training didn't see it coming either

Then, what chance Tom “non-Italian uninvolved in the muscle end of the business” with his lawyer “background and training” and not a wartime consigliere have, to see it coming

So how “old Genco [this wonder! consigliere with all his heroics!] would have smelled a rat" and “Tom didn't”

I doubt “Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death” even if “Tom had some culpability in Sonny's death” as unltimately and undoubtedly "Sonny's uncontrollable temper and poor judgment sealed his fate"

Tom “could tell Sonny what was good for him” and Sonny did listen to Tom, among others -
1. Sonny agreed to wait until Michael's We can't wait Killing Pop is the key for Sollozzo
2. Sonny didn't go after Tattaglia

As far as I can recall, the only time we saw the “critic” Tom was when Tom tried to discourage Michael from killing Roth which was “Difficult not impossible” and was a success indeed

Tom couldn't see that Roth would always have been dangerous threat to Michael - kill or be killed

Tom and Fredo
I believe "any trouble between Michael and Tom" was due to among others, the above

Both Vito and Michael knew Tom was not a wartime consigliere but I don't believe either blamed Tom for Sonny's death

After Sonny's gaffe at the drugs meeting, Vito called in Luca Brasi and told him: "I'm a little worried about this Solozzo fellow." What he was worried about was that Sol would make a move against him to force him pr Sonny to reverse his decision not to accept Sol's deal. That wasn't irrational, it was business. Where Vito slipped was in the next sentence: "Go to the Tattaglias, tell them you're not too happy with our family..." as if anyone would believe that Luca would abandon his Don--or that Vito would allow Luca to ply his deadly trade for another family.

After Sonny's gaffe at the drugs meeting, Vito called in Luca Brasi told him: "I'm a little worried about this Solozzo fellow." What he was worried about was that Sol would try to kill him to force Sonny to reverse his decision not to accept Sol's deal. That wasn't Sol being irrational, it was business. Where Vito slipped was in the next sentence: "Go to the Tattaglias, tell them you're not too happy with our family..." as if anyone would believe that Luca would abandon his Don--or that Vito would allow Luca to ply his deadly trade for another family.


I think Michael resented Tom's position in the family. Tom was Sonny's choice for a brother, not Michael's Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. In the flashback scene at the end of II, after Michael reveals that he joined the Marines, Tom says, "Your father and I have talked many times about your future." Michael fixes him with the Dreaded Corleone Stare and says, "You...talked to my father...about my future?" So, when Sonny was killed, Michael was predisposed to blame Sonny's brother and Vito's consigliere for his death.
Tom knew it, too. Right after the Tahoe shooting, Michael says, "Tom, you're my brother." Tom practically breaks down weeping: "I always wanted to be regarded as a brother by you, Mike"--which tells me that he didn't think Michael regarded him as a brother.

Turnbull you think “Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death”

Sorry I was not clear I was referring to Vito leaving himself wide open for his hit such an easy target with just “And Fredo -- well -- Fredo was -- well --” and buying fruit alone out in the open especially if it was a regular thing ie: easy tracking of Vito's movements - sitting duck! [Fredo waits in the car!]

Sure thing Turnbull trying to find out what Sollozzo's got under his fingernails was business [sending Luca to do so was irrational!]

Sollozzo's only “move against him [Vito] to force him[?] or Sonny to reverse his decision not to accept Sol's deal” would have to be the murder of Vito for which Vito was so ill-prepared, underestimating Sollozzo and never saw it coming

Whilst Michael may have resented Tom for the reasons you mentioned and “that he [Tom] didn't think Michael regarded him as a brother” I still doubt “Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death”

Michael would have fixed anyone who dared! to map out his future “with the Dreaded Corleone Stare and said "You...talked to my father...about my future?"

If I am not misunderstanding your post, you are making a connection between the flashback scene and "Michael was predisposed to blame Sonny's brother and Vito's consigliere for his death"

I fail to see the connection?

Mr Turnbull could you, uh -- amplify your answer a bit? Thanks

Astute question, Lana.
I can't prove it--I'm inferring from the number of times we see Michael being abrupt and harsh with Tom, and his statement that "You're not a wartime consigliere," that he doubted Tom's competence. So, I believe it's possible that he might have been inclined to blame Sonny's death on Tom because Tom didn't see Carlo's treachery coming. It's also possible that Michael may have resented that he had to take the reins of the family following Sonny's death, and needed Tom as a scapegoat. Likely? No. Possible? Yes.

Nothing changes the fact that Sonny dug his own grave through his uncontrollable temper.

Also, TB, at the wedding reception Michael tells Kay that Tom is not a Sicilian. There's no need for him state that to Kay. She would not know of its significance. So, why does he say that to Kay? Well, he's expressing some degree of resentment. I also noted that Michael tells Kay "he's [Tom] been with us ever since." That's less than an affectionate expression. So, Michael is predisposed to find fault with Tom.

Sorry I didn't grasp your second post was different! from your first

It is even worse if Vito anticipated such a move from Sollozzo and still was so ill-prepared when the hit happened
This is totally unacceptable! slippin' from Sicilian Vito the most experienced, long reigning top Mafia Don I'd give Tom a pass!!

Whilst I still doubt “Michael blamed Tom for Sonny's death” or anyone blamed anyone for Sonny's death but going by your views because Turnbull is a good man! – Extracts:

I'd give Tom a pass!! because all things considered....

Sure thing Turnbull ultimately and undoubtedly “Nothing changes the fact that Sonny dug his own grave through his uncontrollable temper”

Thanks Turnbull

Tom was a good lawyer but not in the consiglieri league even in 'peace' time but there were no other contenders!

Tom's "competence" was poor indeed and though Michael's "You're not a wartime consigliere" was in conjunction with Vito, the way it was delivered by Michael was in stark contrast to Vito's “I never thought you were a bad consiglieri....

Then Michael's curt dismissive “You're out, Tom” to Tom's “Maybe I could help”

“the number of times we see Michael being abrupt and harsh with Tom” poor Tom even humiliating Tom in front of Ola, Neri and Rocco - using and abusing Tom the “only one Michael could completely trust” Go figure!

At Carlo and Connie's wedding -
[This is also introducing the various characters to us the audience as well]

• Tom and Michael embrace
• Michael makes the introduction “My brother, Tom Hagen This is Kay Adams”
• Michael only offers further information after Kay asked “If he's your brother, why does he have a different name?”
• Michael goes on “Oh, ah, that -- when my brother Sonny was a kid, he found Tom Hagen in the street and he had no home so my father took him in and he's been with us ever since”
  It came across to me as a feel-good story, showing Michael's family benevolent helping the less fortunate, homeless Street kid [not even a Sicilian!] without any strings attached
• Michael goes on “He's a good lawyer not a Sicilian but I think he's gonna be consiglieri”
• Then Michael explains further after Kay asked “What's that?” "That's like a counsellor an advisor very important to the family”
  seemed to me with pride that even though Tom is not a Sicilian he is family and very important member

Besides at this time, the Corleones were flying high
Vito had not been shot, Sonny was alive, Carlo had not shown his true colours Only Happiness and Peace

So among others even ifThese were events down the track so really had no bearing on the wedding talk

This is actually a very revealing bit of dialog because it reflects that Michael was not in the Family business at that time--even said (after the bandleader story), "That's my family, Kay, it's not me." "He's a good lawyer" is Michael's opinion of Tom's professional qualities--Michael, the former and about-to-be returning college student at that point. "Not a Sicilian, but I think he's gonna be consigliere" is Michael, the family outsider, reflecting on a decision his father will make that has nothing to do with him.

He was even more wretched to Tom in the penultimate boathouse scene with Rocco and Neri.

But, he was being logical and truthful after the machine gun attack. Tom really was the only person he could completely trust at that point because, as he said, Fredo wasn't up to running the family in his absence, and he couldn't rule out Rocco and/or Neri at that point. He was also at his most manipulative with his "You're my brother, Tom..." Even more manipulative when he visited Pentangeli and convinced him to stick his head into the lion's mouth to meet with the Rosatos. What a bastard!

• Tom

Actually! -

Fish tank scene, in fairness to Michael, Michael did try to soften Tom being removed as the Consiglieri
but Tom wouldn't let it go!

I believe Clemenza, Tessio and Carlo had already left before the "You're not a wartime Consigliere" “You're out, Tom” dialogue not sure about Neri and Rocco?

Ola's visit scene [Anthony's party] Ola would have been smug thinking Michael would never see the dawn of another day! bedroom shooting

The penultimate boathouse scene with Rocco and Neri
Neri smirking and Michael humiliating Tom with Tom's mistress scoop! However Tom having a mistress would not have sat well with Michael

• Pentangeli

Indeed Pentangeli was hung out to dry by Michael


Did they have to die? and the honour of Omertà


It's not personal, Turnbull It's strictly business!

It was interesting “very revealing bit of dialog” but I wouldn't say it was a scoop! though because whoelse? could be the Consiglieri There were no other contenders!

Michael also knew about the band leader story then again that was no scoop either even Woltz had heard that story!

TB, that's where I disagree with you. Michael's comment to Kay that Tom is not a Sicilian is not Michael's appraisal of his father's impending Consigliere choice; rather, it's evidence of some resentment Michael directs toward Tom. That resentment is further emphasized by Michael's statement to Kay that "he's been with us ever since." That's quite a non-affectionate, non-familial statement about Tom that may very well have its roots in Michael's perception of Tom as an interloper, someone who absorbed much of Sonny's and his father's attention, interaction, and affection.

Another thing: if Michael could distance himself from his father, should we be surprised that Michael could resent Tom. Also, as you pointed out, the flashback scene further demonstrates Michael's resentment of some one who would try to manipulate his future.

Excellent points, Oli--I hadn't thought of them until now.

He distanced himself from the family business not from his father

That's my family, Kay It's not me. was immediately after the band leader story which was the distinctive separation, he was pinpointing

He has been away and would hardly be in a position to ascertain the relationship between Vito, Sonny and Tom

I reckon taking non-Sicilian Tom in, no strings attached showed the family as benevolent

he's been with us ever since showed the family ties on both sides Tom didn't leave after establishing himself and the family didn't want him to either

They embraced at the wedding They hugged before the Sollozzo shooting
He would have resented anyone who dared! to map out his future

Whatever happened down the track had no bearing on the wedding talk

Excellent points, Lana about the scenes I hadn't thought of them until now but still could have handled better away from an audience
No doubt Pentangeli was hung out to dry by Michael but he should have had more faith in his Don irrespective.....

This is the business they've chosen!