This sounds stupid, I know. Did any of you guys notice that the overwhelming majority of mob guys are horrible fathers ? So many of their children died of drugs, were arrested, or left with their lives in shambles because of their fathers. I really like Sammy's pod cast but look at what that guy did to his children, same with Gotti. Look what Scarfo did to his kids including Nicky Scarfo Jr..
You think Nicky Scarfo taught his kids how to throw a baseball? You think Gotti Sr helped his son with his math homework? When you really think about it, its totally fucked up. These guys were never around and were more concerned with their street reps which is kind of absurd, what does a street rep really mean? You are impressing a bunch of violent, dishonest, and deceptive people.
For any of you with children, remember the day they were born and when you first held them in your arms? Can you imagine bringing them around a life of violence, deception, and dishonesty ? You think a child would rather have a father who was an electrician and coached his little league baseball team or a father that bragged about robberies any how he collects shylock money and doing his prison time like a man?
Now that Im in the legit world and around real men, a lot of guys look at mob guys as a bunch of clowns who need to cheat their way through life because they can't cut the mustard in the real world like everyone else. Alot of them are just lazy with no real talent although guys that are dumber than they are may think they are talented.

Roy DeMeo was a hood father as wrote his son Alfred in a book,same think for Spikotto that said to his son that the best thing is to study. In my opinion most of second generation mobsters understood that the life isnt like in his father's times and
tried to dissuade their sons to follow his way but some like Leonetti was attracked by the money and like other complained this explecially if are serving long sentences.
Plus many father that served times arent present in their sons lives and this led to alcol and drug abuse.

Roy Demeo didn't do drugs or really drink, and according to his son he never once yelled, hit, threatened his kids etc or missed a Sunday dinner, birthday etc. He by all accounts was a great Father. It is a product of his environment. I mean whose to say no one here wouldn't follow the path he went down if we were his age in the early 1970s. He made millions upon millions in his 10 year "career".

I mean its a slippery slope when it comes to mob guys as fathers. Some are/were good father while others were terrible. But even the good fathers are not great people obviously. Like others have said Roy demeo was by most accounts a good family man but out of the house he was murdering countless people and dismembering them. Its also important to remember that according to Albert, Roy started to get his son involved in his schemes/collections. So that's not exactly being a good father lol

I doubt there's any sort of one size fits all here.

I don't know what percentage of fathers over all would be considered "good fathers" but if its as high as half I'd be amazed. And that's whether you're legit or not. I would agree that if you are involved in a criminal lifestyle the odds are you're probably a worse father than average. But exceptions abound and I wouldn't rule them out.

My mother worked in a nursing home for a time. Some of the elderly residents had kids she never saw, more had kids who would stop by on holidays or whatever. Some came regularly.

The one relative that terrified her whenever he came in, which was every single morning, was a Hells Angel, sometimes wearing his vest. He looked the part. He would come in, sit with his elderly mother for breakfast, wheel her out the park when the weather was nice, and return her to her room and then carry on with his day. She had everything she could ever want and saw him every single day.

I would suspect that in the aggregate your line of thinking is correct - but I avoid making broad assumptions around people.

I mean how many Italian-American 17-18 year olds would not be involved in some capacity in the late 70s/early 80's if their Father was a made man making millions a year?I remember he was mainly doing some loansharking, which is what Roy did himself at that age. It's not like he was bringing his son to the Gemini to have a plate of Spaghetti and Meatballs while they wait for the corpses body hanging upside down to congeal.

And the reason I also brought up Roy Demeo because he is one of the only Mafia members where we know almost everything about him. That can only happen if they were murdered or became a rat and I don't care about rats anyway. Being a good Father to me is treating your Family well, never hitting them and making a lot of $. And Roy did all 3.

My compliments Lenox, on what I consider to be an excellent thread and topic for discussion.

I think you are generally correct on your assessment of wiseguys, or even knock-around guys as fathers. Many don't half give a fuck about the kids. Not that they don't love their children, because the vast majority of them do. it's just that they are so absorbed with street life, that their households (wives and children), end up playing second fiddle to the mob.

The less educated, lower class "cafone" hoodlums so to speak, who were not sharp enough, educated enough, or "evolved" enough, to understand what this life really is, brought their kids full-on into the life. Allowed them to get their hands dirty with blood (thinking it was a great thing), allowed the kids to get fucked up, pinched, and serve jail time. Again, thinking it made the kids "men", etc.

In truth, nothing could have been further from reality. It only served to destroy their family. But because these type of hoodlums were low-class themselves, they didn't see anything wrong with this.
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But some, in fact many, are sharp and astute enough, and "sensitive" enough, to take the proper measures to insulate their kids away from the street life. There have been others that have brought their sons and nephews into the life (either because the kids were clamoring for it, or the fathers thought it was a smart move). But placed their children "in position" to allow them to partake in Cosa Nostra, but "compartmentalize" them for lack of a better word, away from a lot of the shit, which protected them from many of the dangers others were exposed to.

A perfect example of this would have been Carlo Gambino of course, who allowed his sons Tommy and Joe to be active (he even straightened Tommy out), but placed them in the highly insulated activity of the garment industry. They ran extremely lucrative rackets, but were not street urchins dealing with the muck and mire or gritty street rackets, and the dangers that result from that.

Carlo was the boss of course, so this example is an extremely elevated example. But there have been many others; capos, soldiers, and top associates alike, who treated their kids the same way........Very intelligent (if you're gonna allow the kids to get involved at all).

There have been many others of course, who dissuaded their sons and young male relatives from Mafia life altogether. They encouraged them to get a higher education, college, white collar professions likes doctors and lawyers, etc. Or "bought" their kids lucrative businesses in the private sector. Which allowed for two things. It enabled the wiseguys to invest their illicit profits in legit businesses, washing their money. While at the same time, putting their kids into solid businesses and vocations for their futures. With the kids protecting their dads monies as only a blood family member will do.

And you are also correct that the "absence" of a father figure; whether it was because of incarceration, going on the lam, or just being out 24/7 on the streets hustling, fucking broads and partying, often led to the kids feelings disenfranchised as far as role-models went.

Like you guys said, never throwing a baseball with the kid, helped with his homework, spending nights home watching TV and spending quality time, etc., all has an effect on children. To a lesser or greater degree, depending on the way it went as a family dynamic.
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Again, great subject matter Lenox!

In MY opinion, they are all in violation of preaching the, Do as I say, Not as I do, philosophy.

Children, myself included, was taught to do certain things but eventually came to the conclusion, if my parents don’t do this, why should I? I think they are trying to trick me

A good rule: Don’t ever ask anyone else to do something that you yourself are not willing to do.

It's an extremely complicated dynamic for sure. And one size does not fit all!

In Italy they want their sons to become professionals like accountants bankers lawyers, but to escape the mafia is almost impossible.

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Excellent post, and an excellent alternate viewpoint. Smartly written I might add. And so true. Whether a father is a legit or ill-legit guy, there are soooo many shitty fathers who are technically legitimate guys, but who suck as a dad. As in the alternative, there are lots of mob guys who are devoted fathers.... so go figure

So my opinion on this from my own personal knowledge and of other things that I’ve read or seen is. I don’t think any mob guy can be a “ good father” I think mob guys can have “good intentions” when it comes to theyre kids but at the end of the day when your living an evil lifestyle it’s hard to be a “good” father. When you go to prison your kids and families are the ones who pay the price for your choices in life even though as your children they themselves had no choice in the matter. When your murdered in the street or disappear off the face of the earth,kids don’t easily get over that. It’s something that sticks with them for the rest of theyre lives,and children are extremely impressionable so when they see you living your life a certain way they want to follow. For 99% of mobsters they’re sleeping late and out all of hours of the night in nightclubs and social clubs gambling and partying and fucking other women, not the mother of theyre children .Kids see that and know that and feel that . These guys aren’t they’re for the kids or helping them with homework ...Jr Gotti really said it best “my father wasn’t theyre for me, I know he loved me but he dropped me at the social club for hours and he was out partying and gambling he wasn’t helping me with homework or throwing the ball...his family came second to the streets” and the streets are the gutter they’re full of drugs and death and pain and scum and your choosing that over your own children..Not to mention taking prison time over talking and being with your family ..people shit on Massino and he flipped to save his skin but at the same time make sure his wife and children kept theyre homes,so they weren’t thrown in the streets.....


“JAG: We used to go with our fathers, our fathers never really spent time with us. When they did, they drove us by the club, dropped us off at the club, and that was it. We were 10.11.12 years old in a club full of men.”
-Junior A Gotti

LOL. His daughter disowned him at the time, he made sure they kept the homes because the fat rat knew he was not going to die in the can. Joe Massino is the worst rat...A don ratting, unreal.

Let’s not derail the thread

Thank You.....Lbynocci...

It's not. You said Joe Massino was looking after his family and that the wiseguys who go to prison are hurting their family...what hurts more, having a Dad in prison but still have money and respect or having a dad become a RAT and make you a target for murder by dozens of people and have to enter WPP just to stay alive.

No ones murdering his family in this day and age..they’re still in Howard Beach....money and “respect “ from criminals isn’t a replacement for a father and husband and the outcome was his family is safe, got to keep theyre money and his kids and grandkids get to have a father and grandfather and his wife still has a husband. Being in prison is the same thing as being dead and your family does all the time with you ... you think being a good father involves going to prison for life and abandoning your kids so you can be a 10 minute conversation in a bar where your called a stand up guy and the next comment is let’s have another fucking drink and how bout those Yankees ....let’s stick to the main topic though...

There were many racket guys who kept their sons away from the life 100%. They sent the kids to college to become professionals. Lawyers, doctors, dentists, big businessmen.

These are the surnames that we will never read about, because they became integrated into normal society, and rose to legitimacy.

Many racket guys are also mostly anonymous to the public, the forum, etc., because they themselves didn't go head first into the muck and mire stupidly. They picked their shots. Made their money, and largely kept themselves (and their blood families) out of the fray.

Those were/are the smarter of the mob set IMO! They utilized Cosa Nostra as a vehicle by which to "elevate" their families, and did so in a way that was almost totally invisible. With either no pinches, or a few minor scrapes with the law that didn't amount too much. It allowed them to achieve their goals and avoid prison, and the destabilization of their lives (and those of their families) that usually comes with that.

Smart men!

Not sure if was mentioned yet but Gigante apparently telling Gotti that he was "sorry to hear that" after John bragged about making his kid sums up a divide between a lot of guys who felt it necessary for their son to be made, and others who believed they were doing what they were doing in part to keep their kids out of the life.

Those same kids he “kept out” have done prison time because they were involved....Esposito was always involved through the Garbage Associations and Andrew through the Piers in Miami and New Jersey....not to mention all the millions his kids have had to launder which in itself is a crime

He just hated Gotti, his own sons are still high ranking Genovese.

We know that Chin made that comment to Gotti because of Gravano. He used that as an example to help paying his picture of Gotti being a piece of shit. However, he never mentions how after getting the deal of a lifetime, he gets his wife and kids involved in an international ecstasy ring.

Gravano was/is a weasel. Just like 99.9% of all rats!

No matter how they try and spin it to make themselves look better, at the end of the day, they are what they are. RATS!

. Well I agree they are full of shit when it comes to not wanting their sons involved BUT in fairness not many were fans of Gotti. Chin and Tony Ducks didn’t like him. Even Massino who was tight with Gotti in that period said “John set this thing back 100 years”

Spot on again. You see membership charts on here and it’s easy to forget there were thousands of racket guys back in the day. Some made and well known, some made and will never show up on a chart and thousands more that never became members but were the bread and butter of the life.

Some of the racket guys were definitely good fathers. Now a days I think it’s rare that find a good father involved in the life. Most have gambling and addiction problems. A bunch are openly abusive. It’s not fun as a little kid when your house is the target of a drug raid. I don’t know a single person who’s father was involved in the life in the 90s on that isn’t at least a little fucked up.

A good father is a good father period.... just like a good person is a good person.

Bingo!

my dad was a soldier in the genovese and he was a mean prick treated me awful

Well first of all, you have to consider the traditions of the day. Most of the people we are talking about lived at a different time. Did the average Italian-American dad in the 1960's help Johnny with his math homework and coach little league? Some did but I think was rare.

Fathers at that time and culture were providers and enforcers first and foremost. A "bad father" back then was a guy who didnt work and didnt pay the bills no matter how many games of "catch" he played. In the generation before, men would have families and sometimes just walk away without a word. Sometimes they just had enough and went back to Italy or just started new families and left the first family to fend for themselves [ this was at a time with no welfare, no assistance, and no court mandated child support ]. My grandparent's parents had alot of stories like that and my mother's grandmother actually had her husband walk out and start a new family. He never even acknowledged his previous children. He didnt even leave the neighborhood! He just walked out and pretended not to know them.

So by the 1950's and 1960's if you were a man who stayed, paid the bills, and acknowledged/provided for your children...you were a pretty good father, even if you whacked your wife and kids around a little bit that was just not considered such a big deal like it is today.

My Grandfather was a Bonanno captain, pretty high rank. He spent alot of years in prison, he whacked my father around, everyone was afraid of him. He even whacked me around a couple of times, alot of men from that time were like that. But he supported his family, he stayed put, he guided his children away from the streets and into legitimate business. He paid for private education, he insisted on college for them.

By today's whacked out standards you'd say he was 'an abuser', but in reality I'd consider him a decent father for the time and culture. He was a hard man, you could easily hate him. But you'd respect him and he took care of his responsibilities.

If John set it back 100 years how many years did Massino set it back by rating the way he did, he wore a wire on his acting boss.....