"I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith." - John Kerry, October 13, 2004

Thank you, Mr. Kerry, for voicing what should be basic common sense to any American who respects that whole "no law respecting the establishment of a religion" thing that Mr. Bush seems so keen on ignoring.

Actually, Kerry made that statement in the SECOND debate, last Friday October 8th.

And it was about as condescending and pandering as the statement he made during the SAME debate, when he said that by looking around at the audience he figured the ONLY people who would be affected by his proposed tax plan would be himself, President Bush and moderator Charlie Gibson.

Apple

Ooh...I forgot...John Kerry is a practicing Catholic, but he won't push his religion on anyone (especially since he's been lying in bed with Jesse Jackson recently).

I guess that's why he's going against his religion and supporting abortion.

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Forgive me if I think that values, not an official religion, but values, are something that should be respected in a President.

In last nights debate, President Bush clearly stated how faith is a part of his life.

To which, Senator Kerry has countered, as he has in each of the debates..."I am a catholic...BUT..."

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I guess I'm missing how Bush is somehow legislating his faith...by being pro-life? Anti embryonic stem cells? These are questions of ethics; not necessarily deriving from his religion.

Man the ideological grunt foot soldiers of both power bases are out on full force tonight...especially me......

However, here is a real question. WHY are you voting for whomever and please, don't just say "the other guy is a flip-flopper"...really, I'm interested as to why we support who we support.

I admire the fact that Kerry doesn't allow his religion to dictate his position on abortion.

Apple will remember, I think, that when JFK ran for President, his opponents voiced the concern that "He would be taking orders from the Vatican".

And one of the things that scares me about Bush is that he thinks he's doing "God's work." Quite frankly, I don't like the idea at all that Bush allows his religious beliefs, or his "faith" to enter into his decision making process.

First step on the "slippery slope": God's work.
Last step: A sanctioned state religion.

I must be missing the point on the above regarding jesse Jackson. What is it?

If either of the candidates are appealing to voters based on religion, it's Bush in a landslide.

Why don't you go check out the 834793 other threads on the subject..

Well, why don't you start by giving us your view first.

DJ--I am a Catholic and pro-choice. I support abortions. Does that mean I'm going against my religion too? :rolleyes: Excuse me for letting a woman make the choice. I think it's funny how much spending and time that Bush puts into abstinence (SP?) programs. Does he honestly think teenagers are going to wait to have sex? Seriously. It's unbelievable.

This is the one thing I dislike so much about Bush. He thinks he has the right to control the people. He thinks he can tell people what sex to marry and he thinks he can tell women they must have a baby if they have consensual sex. I, like John Kerry, oppose gay marriage, but, we don't need to ban them! If 2 men or 2 women want to get married, then let them get married. It's not going to do anything to you.

I find it unbelievable that some people even are against abortions in cases of incest or rape. Thankfully, Bush is atleast for that. I don't see how he can support that, but he's against abortions with consensual sex. If he thinks an abortion is murder, then why isn't it murder in cases of incest or rape? You either support it 100 % or you're against it 100 %. Like I said, teenagers are going to experiment and other accidents can happen with people. Instead of promoting abstinence, he should do what John Kerry has been doing. He should promote contraceptives. -Pat

I'm not wild about either one. I think it's a damn shame that these two are the best we have to offer as potential leaders of our country and the free world.

But there's nothing wrong with being in favor of one guy because you like the other guy less.

I support Kerry because of how I feel about Bush. I don't have much to say that's positive about Kerry, though. I just don't have as much to say about him that's negative.

Does this moronic statement even merit a response?


Didn't think so.

Does this moronic statement even merit a response?[/b][/quote]I guess I miss your point again.

What makes Pat's statement any more moronic than yours?

My point is more that, since the debate has come up, and questions of Bush's faith, as well as concerns over the "religious" vote, Kerry has been tight with Mr. Jackson. This sways not only some religious votes, but clearly the African-American vote in some ways.

Does this moronic statement even merit a response?[/b][/quote]I guess I miss your point again.

What makes Pat's statement any more moronic than yours? [/b][/quote]Last time I checked, the Catholic church is vehemently against abortions of any kind.

Again, I didn't think I needed to clarify. Clearly Pat IS going against his religion.

My point is more that, since the debate has come up, and questions of Bush's faith, as well as concerns over the "religious" vote, Kerry has been tight with Mr. Jackson. This sways not only some religious votes, but clearly the African-American vote in some ways. [/b][/quote]So any candidate that aligns himself with any specific person or group is pandering to the supporters or members of that particular group then, right?

That's nothing new, BTW. When both candidates take a strong pro-Israeli stance, they're appealing to the Jewish voters. Bush's comment in the first debate about how a free Iraq would support Israel was patently ridiculous. I don't care what type of government you have in Iraq, they're still gonna be Arabs, and they're still gonna hate the Israelis. Clearly, he was pandering to the jewish voters with that remark.

I think it would be ridiculous to deny that Bush is absolutely seeking the support of the religious right. That's one of the things about him that scares me.

I too admire Kerry's statement regarding religion and also remember as a kid, during the JFK era, other kids telling me that the Pope was gonna move in the White House if JFK won. :rolleyes:

No man (or woman) should have to come out and defend why his religion or faith, is what it is. It's a personal belief or non-belief and everyone has a right to that. Just as no one should try to push their religious or nonreligious beliefs on someone else. I think Kerry explained it beautifully.

DJ, I was born/raised catholic, and although I admit, that I skip a Sunday mass from time to time, and am prolife, although, that and stem cell are very conflicting for me, as I am not without the understanding reasons why one might support them. How can anyone judge whether John Kerry is a "good" Catholics or not???? I don't want to get into a religious debate, but only want to point out that to "judge" Kerry because he won't let his religious beliefs interfere with the abortion issue is unfair to him and just another reason to thrash him IMHO.

But like PLaw, I too am concerned about Bush using his newfound faith and have heard the "rumor" that "God" sent him on this mission. Perhaps he should come out and explain that to the American people?? :rolleyes:

I don't get the Jesse Jackson remark either.

TIS

Does this moronic statement even merit a response?


Didn't think so. [/b][/quote]What a cheap shot. Because I support something that you BELIEVE is 'murder,' it makes me go against my religion. I am very faithful and I believe we're here to make our own decisions--not have someone make them for us. -Pat

The only thing Kerry's statement says to me is that he still cannot voice an opinion. Everything he says can be taken one way or another. He's so careful not to tick anyone off. Thank God for real men like G.W. He knows how he feels and isin't afraid to say it. Even if I don't always agree with Bush's point of view, I always respect how he does it and that he does it with conviction.

I'm sure Kerry is a great and smart man but he never comes off as a leader to me. I don't want someone who is going to back down everytime someone critizes him.

I'm also a firm believer in the seperation of church and state. However I find it interesting when people claim their religion does not affect their decision making process. How is this even possible? So to me Kerry's statement shows me that he is either lying or has no backbone. Either way he is just trying to say the right thing. Bush, however, knows we don't want to hear that his religion affects his decision making process, but its the truth, so he says it. I can appreciate the honesty.

Ok there ya go, a very small reason why I am supporting Bush.

And that is what scares me about Bush.

That he won't go against his religion, but, rather, will let his religious beliefs determine his position on the issues.

What are we gonna do if we ever have a Christian Scientist run for President who comes out against health care? You won't support him. I won't support him. But do we want candidates who have thier positions dictated by religious beliefs?

I don't want politics mixing with religion. Period.

I think it requires a great deal of "backbone" to go against the teachings and instructins of your religion if you think they are wrong.

Does this moronic statement even merit a response?


Didn't think so. [/b][/quote]What a cheap shot. Because I support something that you BELIEVE is 'murder,' it makes me go against my religion. I am very faithful and I believe we're here to make our own decisions--not have someone make them for us. -Pat [/b][/quote]A faith based upon convenience is an empty faith.

What I'm saying is this - in my opinion, it is going against the Catholic church (and what I'm trying to explain) to support abortion. It is your right to do so.

But don't go spouting how catholic you are, or how John Kerry is a dedicated catholic, if he supports a.) the infanticide of millions and b.) the destruction of embryos for a purpose that has been shown successful in adult stem cells.

Either way, this goes against the teachings of the catholic church.

I'm not going to get on my soapbox and say "I'm a great catholic" or something, it's not my job to preach. But what I am saying is that for going around and saying that he is catholic, John Kerry does not stand with the catholic church.

And don't say I "believe" that abortion is infanticide, it is. The meeting of sperm and egg at conception produces, guess what, a 46 chromosomed organism, which is unique to humans. It's a human being. Not a fucking meatball you can rip out and destroy, but a human life.

I don't want to get into an abortion debate, I just had to point out that I was annoyed by that statement Pat.
Abortion is not a black and white issue, you can't say you're either 100% for it or 100% against it. There are way too many instances for it to be that way. Yes I think abortion is wrong, but if I was raped I would get an abortion. So where does that put me?
I believe in choices, which means the choice of not putting yourself in the type of situation where you would need an abortion. I do believe in abortion should be a choice only in instances of rape, incest, or harm to the mother.

At the same time I would never judge another person for their choices, but I am not going to say its right either. Nobody is perfect, we all make decisions we regret.

I don't want to get into an abortion debate, I just had to point out that I was annoyed by that statement Pat.
Abortion is not a black and white issue, you can't say you're either 100% for it or 100% against it. There are way too many instances for it to be that way. Yes I think abortion is wrong, but if I was raped I would get an abortion. So where does that put me?
I believe in choices, which means the choice of not putting yourself in the type of situation where you would need an abortion. I do believe in abortion should be a choice only in instances of rape, incest, or harm to the mother. [/b][/quote]Yes, it IS a black and white issue. You're either FOR it or AGAINST it. If you and DJ consider it murder for someone who has consensual sex, then you consider it murder for someone who has an abortion if they were raped. It's not a topic where you can say, well "if that's what happened, then it's ok." You're either ok with abortions 100 % or against them 100 %. How can you call yourself pro-life if you are for abortions for incest and rape? It's the biggest contradiction I've ever seen. -Pat

I highly doubt it's the biggest contradiction you've ever seen. And I already responded. My point was that yes abortion is wrong, however if a woman is raped then it was not her decision to have sex, therefore I do believe she should be allowed to have an abortion if she chooses to do so. What I don't think should be legal is me going out having sex (with or without protection) and then getting an abortion. Unless you are not from this planet then you should know that there is no such thing as 100% protection, therefore having sex is a decision. Rape and incest are not. That is where we differ. It doesnt mean I think abortion is ok.

That is also why I do believe in teaching abstinence in high school. Bush is not being an idiot and saying "Oh if we teach abstinence then they won't have sex," he is teaching students that there is no fool proof method to not getting pregnant if you have sex. That is the basis and reasoning behind teaching Abstinence.

No, it isn't a black & white issue, and not everyone is either FOR or AGAINST it.

Even Bill Clinton, in his 1992 acceptance speech clearly made the distinction between being 'pro-abortion' and 'pro-choice'. Many people (including me) are pro-choice without necessarily liking the idea of abortion.

I don't think anyone with half a heart is actually FOR abortion; it should be considered exactly what it is. The ending of a life, a tragic but sometimes necessary decision. For some it's an easy decision, some a difficult and painful one. However it's been legal for over 30 years, and anybody who needs one should be able to have one.

It's not black & white...and anybody who claims it is is showing their immaturity.

Again.

Apple

Yes, it is the biggest contradiction I've ever seen and I'm going to stand by my statement: You're either for it 100 % of against it 100 %.

On abstinence--If you have funds to put into health classes, would you promote contraception or abstinence? I would promote contraceptive. Kids won't wait. It's 2004. Sex is like a regular thing. It's not even considered a risk anymore. You know why it's not considered a risk? The youth have few health classes. Fortunately, I have a very good health class, but some schools have none. -Pat

Actually they do work. They have to be run properly...not by the government. By civilians who KNOW and have experienced what happens.

and one other thing......it takes TWO people to make a baby. So if anything it should be the COUPLE'S right to choose.

Many people (including me) are pro-choice without necessarily liking the idea of abortion.
[/b][/quote]Whoa, whoa, whoa. Slow down. Where did I say I liked the idea of abortion? I just said I supported it and support people making the choice for they want to do. I never said abortion is the best thing around. -Pat

I was gonna start a new thread for this, but it'll only flow in to every other political thread we've had, so thought I'd just post it here.

Do you really think that all these "undecided" voters are truly undecided???? I mean less than two weeks away and from seeing some on tv, even after the last debate, are still not sure. all the news, all the political ads, all the hype about this election???? I can understand that someone might not care for either candidate, but come on!!!! If you plan to vote, you have to make a choice. Just wanted to know everyone's thoughts. Oh, and although I doubt it, is there anyone here who is truly undecided at this point?? If so, can you say what exactly you are waiting to hear from either candidate?


TIS

I gotta disagree with you on this one, Pat.

What in this world is 100% black or white, after all?

I see nothing wrong with people being anti-abortion, except in certain circumstances, like rape, incest, or if giving birth places the mother's life in danger.

What I do find interesting, though, is all of the folks here who are anti-abortion and say that abortion goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church also preaches abstinence out of wedlock, and prohibits the use of contraceptives.

I wonder how many of the good Catholic young men here practice what their church preaches?

Very good point, Plaw. My grandma, who is a registered voter, will not be voting this year because both canidates are for abortion and when I asked her about types of birth control, she also said she was against that. It seems there are very few people on here who are anti-abortion and anti-contraceptives, but if I'm "going against my religion" for favoring abortion, then are the pro-lifers going against their religion if they're for contraceptives? -Pat