So this gangland war fought on the streets between Persico and Orena loyalists. I’m most familiar with it via the story of Wild Bill Cutolo. I’m not sure if you consider him a direct casualty or someone who perished in the aftermath. But it might be one of the more significant modern gang wars among the Italians?

Where exactly does this war begin and end? Is there any good analysis or breakdown you can point me toward?

Is there any family that has fought each other as fiercely as these guys? I mean actual wars between factions, where they’re prowling the streets looking for each other. One that comes to mind is the Philly mob war.

The war up in Canada has had more casualties, although it is quite a bit different than the Colombo war. The Colombo war was short and bloody, while the Canadian war is a bit more drawn out.

In the Colombo war there was only two factions and the police and the feds thanks to scarpa sr stopped the war.
While in the canada war there various factions:rizzutos,the ndrangheta,Desjardins crew,the bikers,the black gangs ecc.
in more cities like Montreal and Toronto.
And more important in canada there are no RICO.

I don’t know a whole lot about the Canada thing. So an indigenous family, the Rizzutos, fighting against Calabrese Calabrian (correction) gangsters?

I dont know about this 20 Pages report.
But in some lines the story is this:
Nicolò Rizzuto becomed the montreal godfather in the 1970s killing Violi that was a Calabrian. In 2006 Vito son of Nicolò was estraded in the us because was a shooter in the 3 capos murders in 1981.
Vito builder an alliance with Italians,biker and the street gangs for the coke traffick,while in the US this alliance collapsed and the ndrangheta from Toronto tried to take control of Montreal.
Plus Sal Montagna a former street boss for the bonannos made the move for take the city.When Vito Rizzuto get out in 2012 the people continue be whacked.

I made a thread on the canadIan mob give a look to it.

The war sort of began with the attempted assassination of Vic Orena in June 1991. But then there was a ceasefire and some sit downs with the other families. Finally the shooting really began in November 1991 with the attempted murder of Greg Scarpa. The fighting continued for two years and ended with the murder of underboss Joseph Scopo in October 1993. There were some sporadic ceasefires during that time, especially in 1993, but the murder of Scopo is what really led to the peace between the two.

I just remember from some doc that law enforcement was perfectly happy to sit back and let them blow each other away. But it was happening right in the street, around civilians and whoever in broad day. They were shooting each other from inside cars, into cars, all kinds of stuff. It had to be stopped.

It’s probably not often that the Italians engage in this kind of behavior. That’s why it sort of sticks out to me.

@OurThing, it was the fact that innocents were actually murdered or shot. A small child, at one stage.

Hey Nicky, do you mean in the Colombo war or the Canadian?

I was living in the area back when the Colombo thing was going on, and knew some of the people, but hadn't heard anything about a small child being killed (although i do remember the bagel store shooting of the teenager). Any info you have would be appreciated, you have me racking my brain now. Thanks!

that guy larry mazza pumps ups his own mafia pedigree . he wasnt a made guy he swears he is. some bullshit about the acting boss on the colombo side joe t said your with us and thats it. he gives a good account of the whole internal war. he was close to greg scarpa at the time 91 till they all went to jail

his book is a good look at the 90tys colombo war. except the fact he wasnt a made guy cause the books were closed and the other 4 families didnt ok it

Thanks, might be exactly what I’m looking for. Seems like most (or all) of the accounts I’ve seen about this didn’t actually come from true members either.

i would steer you to a deal with the devil book its more fact based. actualy the whole thing is maybe except lil vic orena kids give interviews which is weird ive read 1 or 2 were inducted guys. mazza paints a good picture of the war but makes himself which i ubnderstand its your book but if we check the news papers you admitted you were never a lcn member now 20 yrs later you feel you are. whatever that cool. i believed you before that just cutts your creditablilty i think.

A 16 yr old kid was accidentally non-fatally shot in june of 92’. His name was Daniel Norden.

Sorry, I'm dumb. It was someone on this board who said that, and they were obviously referring to a 20+ page thread.

Yeah that's him. Not a small child as I remembered.

And let me say this: Larry Mazza's book is very good and incredibly well-written. Nothing I've read in it has been proven to be false. The meetings he discusses are known to have taken place, so he was definitely direct with the Persico administration. And he never goes as far as to call himself a bonafide made member. He makes the distinction that it was an informal, unofficial ceremony.

You aren't dumb OurThing. It happen to make a mistake.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/09/nyregion/killing-is-tied-to-mafia-war-in-brooklyn.html

18 year old kid killed in bagel shop in a case of mistaken identity. I'm sure they cried themselves to sleep with guilt over it..

No doubt someone like Jace will roll along to talk about how stuff like this, or the Guido incident, or the Aronwald incident, or the Bari incident, or the Hatcher incident, etc. etc. are somehow justifiable or that they deserved it.

You seem to think every mobster is heartless lol. You should read Albert DeMeo's book. Everyone has a heart Moe. You don't think Nicky Scarfo shed a tear or two when he had to kill his best friend's son? Of course he did.

Not that I have a stake in this argument, but it should be noted that Tommy Gioeli was remorseful decades later after the accidental killing of a nun. This is even though he wasn't involved in the actual hit team, but was in a crash car down the road.

I didn't hear about that but if it's a case of someone claiming remorse in order to get leniency then I wouldn't be taking a conman's word at face value. And if you are driving the crash car - in any kind of crime - I would've thought that makes you part of the hit team/bank robbing team. You're deeply implicated.

I can't speak for Scarfo's thought process after killing Salvie, an act of avarice, but in terms of De Meo, the guy was virtually a serial killer. Yeah, he loved his child. Ted Bundy loved his mother. Hitler loved Eva Braun. Hey, let's give them medals too!

Thank you Nicky and Zero.

From I've gathered about Demeo he was often an almost "likeable" guy. Humans aren't really black-and-white creatures. There are gangsters who seem affable enough and generally don't bother you despite having more than a few bodies under their belt. At the same time there are law-abiding citizens that aren't capable of physical violence, yet in their own way are out to fuck someone over at any given opportunity. Weird thing, the human psyche.

For sure, a lot of these mob guys are probably very charming or funny or dare I say it likeable. That's the sad thing about the human race and the ability to manipulate. Some people will invariably use gifts they possess to part fools with their money or take advantage of vulnerable people.

Some psychopaths or narcissists, like De Meo, will use brute strength to reveal these traits. Others, like Madoff, will use brains to fuck over people and ruin their lives.

It's said that a lot of psychopaths are CEO's of big companies.

Why bring me up, I have no comments on the story or this thread? You take a shot about me, make an assumption about what I think, with no cause. Do you do anything on here but look to cause arguments?

Moe, that's a legitimate question. I think jace deserves an answer.

I apologize. I should have been more discreet and not named names. My bad. It won't happen again.

I see what you did there, Furio lol...

This is from the poster B. on Black Hand Forum. This is not my research or info, just don't want anyone to think I'm taking credit for it.

Some of this is known but it provides some interesting details and even slightly different interpretations of the events leading up to and during the 90s Colombo War. Most of this information came out in court through wiretaps, informants, and cooperating witnesses, specifically related to the cases against Vic Orena and Patty Amato.

- In March 1992, capo Michael Sessa supervised a hit team that was planning to murder Orena soldier Louis "BoBo" Malpeso. The FBI became aware of Sessa's crew actively surveilling Malpeso and sent the NYPD to the scene of the surveillance which caused them to abort the hit.

- Associate "Joey Brains" Ambrosino's car was bugged and he was heard discussing a plan to kill an Orena capo, so the FBI arrested Ambrosino and the rest of the hit team.

- Associates Michael Maffatore, Harry Bonfiglio, Joe Ambrosino, and Ken Geller all turned government witness as a result of the war, as did soldier Alan Quattrache. Quattrache's home had been bugged during the war which gave the FBI vital info. Quattrache was inducted in a 1988 ceremony presided over by Orena.

- Al D'Arco and Sammy Gravano were key witnesses during the Orena trial. Gravano attended a Commission meeting where Orena was unanimously approved as the "official acting boss". D'Arco testified that Orena told him that he had the power to "make members or kill guys" unless specifically told not to.

- Associate Joseph "Chubby" Audino, who was close to Orena, had his car bugged and apparently complained that the Persico faction tried to kill Orena instead of asking him to step down.

- Orena allegedly tasked Greg Scarpa to kill associate Tommy Ocera in fall of 1989. Scarpa began stalking Ocera in the fall but did not commit the murder. In November Ocera was eventually led to Long Island at the home of Patty Amato, who was close to Ocera, where he was killed by Amato and Gioachino "Jack" Leale, a soldier in Amato's crew.

- Gravano testified that Ocera was killed to please John Gotti, as it was believed that Ocera had murdered Greg Reiter, who was the son of Gotti's close friend Mark Reiter. Gravano testified that he was at the Ravenite when Orena met with Gotti, who had been agitated and then calmed down after the meeting. Gotti later told Gravano that the Colombos had killed Tommy Ocera.

- In December 1989, a meeting was held between Colombo and Lucchese leaders where Orena told Al D'Arco that they had killed Ocera for Gotti because of the Reiter murder. Orena told D'Arco that they gave him the "lupara bianco", meaning his body would not be found.

- Apparently Orena was also angry with Ocera for skimming from a loansharking operation. Ocera's place of business the Manor had also been raided and LE came into possession of Ocera's loansharking records that implicated Orena. Ocera became very upset about this and Orena sent two of his sons to meet with Ocera, who could not be found. Later Ocera's girlfriend brought them to meet with him.

- Just weeks before his murder, Ocera and his girlfriend saw two unmarked cars watching them leave the Manor and later on her way home, one of the cars tried to ambush the girlfriend. She thought it was Greg Scarpa driving. The next night, Orena himself visited her at the Manor and complimented her driving ability.

- Harry Bonfiglio testified that a soldier in Patty Amato's crew named Gioachino Leale told him that Orena ordered the murder. Maffatore and Bonfiglio had taken Leale to a meeting with Orena where passed the order to kill Ocera. As a reward for the murder, Leale was given two gambling clubs formerly owned by Ocera.

- Maffatore and Bonfiglio testified that they had dug Ocera's grave where he was buried after the murder. They later led the FBI to the gravesite in Queens where Ocera was dug up. An arrest warrant was issued for soldier Leale but he could not be found. He was found dead a few weeks later in a hotel parking lot.

- Gravano, D'Arco, and Ambrosino all testified that Orena's goal was to become official boss, which is what started the war. Apparently Orena began publicly speaking ill of Carmine Persico with the intention that the Commission would remove him as boss. Orena referred to Persico as a rat for admitting the existence of Cosa Nostra and for talking to a Daily News reporter, plus his talks of doing an interview with 60 Minutes. Gravano was aware of all of this as it was happening and understood Orena's intent.

- It sounds like Scarpa was identified by Orena early on as a threat to his power. He approached D'Arco and Gravano seeking help in murdering Scarpa, but D'Arco turned down the request with the excuse that he couldn't get authorization from the fugitives Casso/Amuso. Gotti told Gravano to assist Orena with the Scarpa murder and Gravano's crew began surveilling Scarpa, but Orena cancelled the request as he felt it would cause too many problems to involve other families in the dispute.

- In 1991, Carmine Persico sent word that his son Allie Boy would become boss upon his projected release date in 1993. This strained tensions in the family and Orena told Carmine Sessa to begin disparaging Persico to the Colombo capos. He told him to begin referring to Persico as "a rat who should be knocked down", specifically. Sessa instead reported this to capo Teddy Persico.

- When Orena heard that Sessa had refused his order and met with Teddy Persico, he planned to stage a making ceremony where in reality Sessa would be murdered Goodfellas style.

- Sessa heard of Orena's plan to murder him and gathered a hit team in June 1991 who waited outside of Orena's home to kill him. Orena as we well know spotted them and fled. Another Persico hit team was supposed to kill an Orena captain that night but also failed, which caused the hit team to flee to a New Jersey hotel.

- After these attempted murders, the Gambino, Lucchese, and Genovese set up a committee to mediate the dispute. Both Orena and Sessa attended the first meeting, but Sessa refused to attend the subsequent meetings. Orena attended all of the meetings. The Luccheses and Gambinos supported Orena and put the responsibility on him to maintain peace as he controlled more soldiers and was more eager to go to war.

- The "peace" finally ended when an Orena hit team led by Bill Cutolo shot at Greg Scarpa.

- Quattrache, Ambrosino, and the tapes made from Audino's car all seemed to confirm that Orena started the war.

- Joe Ambrosino's hit team surveilled Patty Amato and his wife for six weeks with the intent of killing Amato.

- Audino's car tapes revealed the three main "murder crews" for Orena were led by Cutolo, Patty Amato, and Vic Orena Jr.

- When the FBI raided Orena's girlfriend's hom in April 1992, they found Orena meeting with his sons Vic Jr. and John in the basement. There were loaded shotguns in three different closets with various types of ammunition, and upstairs there was another loaded pistol-grip shotgun with an ammunition belt. In a crawl space under the deck there was a bag with six loaded handguns and clips. There was also a bulletproof vst and three cellphones and three beepers. There was a briefcase with 55k in cash.

- In Orena's hideout they found telephone toll records that had been illegally obtained and Coles directories so that they could find the address for each of the phone records. They also found notes showing that someone had already made lists of which addresses corresponded to which phone numbers, which included the homes of capo Joseph Russo and a girlfriend of Teddy Persico. Ambrosino testified that both Russo and Persico were on the hitlist.

- Patty Amato became a captain in 1987 and was the acting underboss for a time under Orena but was later demoted back to capo only.

- Amato and soldier Jack Leale met with Tommy Ocera at the Manor often and were all closely associated, with Ocera and Leale being in Amato's crew.

- Before Ocera was killed, he became paranoid and told his girlfriend where he wanted to be buried. He also told Leale that he hoped his body would be found so that his wife could collect his life insurance. Ocera received two calls before his death, one telling him he would be killed and another telling him to run.

- Maffatore testified that he heard Amato instruct Leale that they did not want Ocera's body to be found.

- The day of Ocera's death, he stopped by Amato's house where Amato threw him to the ground and Leale strangled him with a metal wire. His body was then taken in Bonfiglio's car which had been borrowed by Leale. That night Bonfiglio, Maffatore, Leale, and others buried the body with the metal wire still around Ocera's throat.

- Greg Scarpa killed four people and wounded two during the war, including the murders of Vincent Fusaro, Nicky Grancio, and Larry Lampesi. Scarpa planned to kill Bill Cutolo on Thanksgiving 1991 by dressing as a Hasidic Jew outside of Cutolo's girlfriend's house. The hit was called off when the New York Post published an article that sam day speculating that Scarpa was an informant. Scarpa also shot Joe Waverly Cacace during a shoot out, hitting Cacace in the stomach.

- Scarpa was also responsible for the murder of Gaetano Amato, identified as a Lucchese member, but all other info I have seen has him as a Genovese member.

- Scarpa's was removed as an informant in March 1992 when the FBI heard he was conspiring to commit murder, but DeVecchio got him reinstated less than a month later. There is a lot of information from both agent Favo and various cooperating witnesses that suggest DeVecchio gave Scarpa a lot of inside intel both to help him and his crew avoid arrests as well as aid the Persico faction in the Colombo war.

- When DeVecchio heard about the Larry Lampesi murder, according to agent Favo he allegedly said his now infamous "We're going to win this thing!" line and slapped the desk. Favo questioned DeVecchio in response and DeVecchio clarified he meant that the FBI would win. As a result, Favo began withholding information from DeVecchio.

- Carmine Sessa, Larry Mazza, and other witnesses close to Scarpa knew that he would often take phone calls from a "Mr. Della" or "Dello" and that Scarpa had a contact in law enforcement who tipped him off on pending arrests and investigations. Mazzo also believed that this contact had given Scarpa a partial address of Orena's hideout.