I'm glad you're not trying to claim that Dominic Violi is a Buffalo underboss, or even a made guy. There's no evidence the Luppino family or the Violi clan (if they are one and the same) is a part of the Buffalo crime family.

You misrepresent me Nicky... I pointed to a lawer in Buffalo who believes the FBI in Buffalo was in bed with Cosa Nostra in the Nickel City, and continues to be. I was simply positing that things may not be as simple and straight forward as you so forcefully argue. This misunderstanding on your part only serves to verify another reason why one can’t always believe what he or she reads. People often misunderstand and then misrepresent what was said ...or do not get the intended meaning. My whole point is things are never as simple as they seem—therefore it is hard for me to believe someone when the difinitevely say the Buffalo Crime Family is dead. This gets into the study of epistemology-the study of what we know and how we know it. I’m sorry you misunderstood my logic. Do you get what I’m saying? I am not a stupid nub- because I think there is a strong possibility the Buffalo Family is alive and active. Of course I would never say I know that I know this beyond a shadow of a doubt, because I know there is so much that I don’t know. But given the knowledge I do have chances are it is very much alive and active. I just want you to admit you don’t know 100% that it doesn’t exist. It’s your and others’ demeaning dogmatism on this subject that is so offputting.

Nicky, again, Im not lying. If you need to think that its on you. It really doesnt mean much to me. Read everyone elses posts on here. Giacomos, Nickles, Bensons....thats the consensus. Just because your spiteful and mad that we dont believe YOU and your sources doesnt mean other people cant. You clearly dont understand how difference of interpretation works. Its ok though, continue to allow this to fester and repeat over and over and over what the government says. It will be ok Nicky, better times are ahead for you and Loscalzo

@ NickleCity....Nicky was the kid in high school that went home and cried if he didnt get picked in dodgeball. Fitting he has to demean everyone that doesnt pick him :,,,,,(

Of course. I admit that I can't say with 100% certainty that it doesn't exist. Rooster can't say, with 100% certainty, that it DOES exist, since he himself said he doesn't know any made members and doesn't want to.

But this doesn't mean we can't debate over it. It's a question of validity. The FBI has a far better track record than Rooster. District attorneys have a far better track record than Rooster. Federal prosecutors have a far better track record than Rooster. Scott Deitche has a far better track record than Rooster. Ron Fino doesn't really have a better track record, he likes to embellish stories a lot, but at least we know for a fact that he was, in fact, in that life.

I do believe Joe and Dominic were made in the Buffalo and Luppino crime families.

Lol, no shit they have a better track record. Lol. Doesnt mean they know the full story or dont make mistakes, contradictions, and have their own personal agendas.

Hey everyone, that guy Rooster has a better track record than Preet Bahara and Governor Cuomo.

~ Anonymous

wait..... so this buffalo FACTION of canada has 25 made members and 150 associates? or 100... whatever.
there better then colombos.

We can debate and I appreciate the debate. You make valid points, and it is a validity of knowledge (epistemology) question we are really debating-Regarding LCN what is the best way of knowing something is truth. I guess I am more of a postmodern thinker... I challenge authorities, because, in my experience, they haven’t been as much of an authority as they claim. Or, the misuse their authority, therefor their authority can’t be trusted. Of course Ron Fino can’t be fully trusted either! He uses his life to sell books. The papers to sell copy and subsriptions. LE has to sell they are doing their job... and on and on it goes. If you read Matt Gryta’s book The Real Teflon Don he and Karalus are in a pissing match with the FBI over who was really responsible for weekening the Magaddino Family—they paint the FBI as inept and relying on NY State’s Forrest Street Boys who were the precursor to the NY State OC task force my friend served on. The FBI agent from the field office in Buffalo Joe Hriffith wrote a book called Mob Nemesis where he takes the credit for what the Forrest Street Boys claim they were responsible for. Because of all of this, it is my opinion that your credible sources aren’t as credible as you may think they are. No offense...

Truly amazing that this thread is still going

@Nickle, again, well said

Thank You Nickel
So Luppino has his own family and is a capo for Buffalo?

How does that work?

Where does the money GO?
LOL

50/50%

In 1998 article, Coppola said that the Buffalo mob was penniless.....that in itself is a huge lie.

For me, that shows predicate, meaning hell lie and exaggerate about other items inclusive to the family simply to gain followers and believers of his work.

http://ticklethewire.com/2012/10/01/former-fbi-informant-wishes-he-had-chosen-his-path-differently/

If this in fact Ron Fino responding he acknowledges that he is skeptical of the 210 cleanup yet gives Sam Capitano credit for the effort but isnt 100% sold on him and he also states that the leaders have simply hunkered down, became more clandestine and attempt to look more respectful. This was only 6 years ago.

http://buffalonews.com/1996/10/07/reputed-mobster-elected-by-local-210/

In this article, FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS say that the effort to clean up the union is not working.

Soooo, if we are to go by published law enforcement statements and use it as HARD evidence, they agree that it wasnt possible to clean up the union with the method being applied.

Ron Fino flipped in 1989. After that he really has no inside knowledge on the union. Not saying that throws away his credibility, but just bear that in mind when reading his information.

I don't disagree with that. But that article is from 1996. There were ten more years of hard-hitting union cleanup before federal investigators declared it clean. They have since stood by that claim.
So what's your point? That the unions weren't entirely clean by 1996? We all knew that. That's why there was another decade of strict federal oversight. Duh.

It's not really a huge lie when you consider the enormous rackets that Buffalo had taken away from it.
In context, Coppola's comment makes perfect sense. He's not trying to say that every Buffalo wiseguy was rattling a tin can on the street. But without the unions, Las Vegas pipeline, big loansharking books, and other staple rackets, the Buffalo mob simply did not have many enormous money-makers left. That's where the penniless comment comes from.

And if you're that hung up about Coppola's truth-telling, then it boggles my mind that you can take Giacomo seriously.

I already made my points, you cant just minimize them because it helps your own narrative.

My points, again, I repeat, again are that there is ambiguity in all these articles because the exact truth is unknown.

"Penniless" is either a lie or extremely exaggerated. Even in context, there was a lot of money being made in 1998.

I know the unions arent cleaned up to this date and not all involve Italian organized crime. My point is that during the "overhaul" of 210 it was impossible to route out all Maia ties and influence, as is the case today in 2018. A duck is a duck. Great theatrics by the current administration of 210 then but it was very unwise of the feds to allow them to govern and regulate themselves, hence the comment made by feds in that article.

Fino changes his story every few years to benefit himself, that is my point.


Its not just "duh" or "youre so hung up"...its my beliefs and my opinion and you point out what you believe to be non evidence is not non evidence to me. Do you understand that? Or?

Nicky;

For whatever the reason is I feel like you are not directly responding to my posts/questions.

I wanted to form my own opinion based on all the articles that all you guys have posted Nicky, Rooster, Nickel City.

I initially started out leaning towards your opinion with the fact of what you had said regarding no arrests in the last 10 years approxiamatly.

However, after reading all the articles and especially the 2017 arrests and the subsiquent news articles I just do not think so anymore... If you could answer my questions that would be great.

My questions are:

In your opinion when did the family become officially defunct?

What proof are you using to support that? Specifically...

Not general
FBI.. LE. Joe Newspaper guy, Frankie journalist, etc, etc.....

Please state specifically on this date:_____________

I.E. NICKY, ----> Response---> The family became defunct in 1987, I say that because of this article:______________-
I.E. ---> Response----> The family became defunct in 2000, I say that becasue that is when the FBI said they cleaned up the union, here is the FBI press release ___________________.

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I am a little confused because you point to Fino being someone that is a reliable source and if that is fact
FACT MEANING all sides argee:

If in fact FINO is relaible I have just read an article from Fino from 2012 that states that the union has not been 100% cleaned up.

My two specific questions for you NICKY, are:

1) When is the defunct date? Please provide proof you used to make that call??

2) When was the union specifically cleaned up, date? It would have to be after 2012 becasue of the fact from begining to end you have listed FINO as a reliable source probably a 1/2 a dozen times.

The answer is they arent defunct yet....

As far as Giacomo lying 1) you think everyone is lying 2) he might be lying but he sure does pluck a lot of info out of magic hat, some I can corroborate, and no its not some big collusion between him and I...that stabbing I heard about, it was in 2013 and he didnt even get any money out of the guy, who is supposedly protected by another member and had threatened revenge many times but did nothing.

Strax... I don't mean to be rude, but you lobbed a bomb on this thread and then disappeared when a question was asked of you. I would appreciate an answer...

Even more, I would rather have Roster posting 5 times in a row... at least he is engaged in the discussion of this thread. If you are not going to engage in the discussion, why lob the bomb? To me an admin should be worried about people who show up to toys a grenade and leave, instead of your so-called concern that Rooster is spamming.

My questions again: How was I nonsensical?

@BillyBrizzi you never answered my questions.... Please, I am interested in your response.


Once again Billy here are my questions:
But if the Buffalo Family is defunct and without leadership, why would a Canadian paper highlight the fact that those arrests were members of the Buffalo Crime Family instead of highlighting the Canadian Family or Families they were working for?

If the papers are referencing the Violi brothers and/or Carfagna...Why do they not just call them out as members of the Luppino Crime Family of Canada instead of reference the Buffalo family at all if Buffalo is truly defunct? I find that strange. Don't you?

By 1996, federal investigators declared they had not fully cleaned up the union. That is fact. That's why they continued the oversight for another decade. If you can find me an article from 2006, saying that they have not been able to uproot the mob's influence on the union, then you'll have a good point.


The problem with this statement is that neither Nickle or Rooster have linked anything from a reputable source which indicates the Buffalo crime family is still an active crime family. You can argue that "maybe they're hierarchy isn't exact," but the fact is nothing that Nickle and Rooster have posted indicates that there is any sort of organized crime structure from the Todaro crime family. If the Canadian crime groups have moved in, that's a whole nother story.


I've answered this one before, Bensonhurst. Like I said, the FBI officially produced their last chart for the family in 2006. However, the chart seemed to only list surviving members, not indicative of any structure. The reason I say this is because, if accurate, the chart would have only had 2 soldiers per crew, which we know isn't a good model.
So I believe the family probably died around 2006. Because I believe that was the time in which the FBI still had enough members in the family to produce a chart, but not enough to produce a chart that actually made sense.


There is no exact moment in which a family says "Okay everybody, pack your things up, we're now defunct." It simply doesn't work like that. The family fades away overtime. That makes it impossible to name an exact date when a family goes defunct.


No I didn't. I've said numerous times that Fino isn't a totally reliable source, since he flipped in 1989. Don't put words in my mouth Bensonhurst.


Fact does not mean "all sides agree." I WISH that it did. For example, Rooster has presented NO PROVEN FACTS to back up his narrative, by I have produced many facts to back up mine.


Quit going on about this defunct date Bensonhurst. What are you trying to prove by it? There IS no defunct date.



Jesus Christ Bensonhurst... If you want to participate in this thread you'll have to listen...

Fino is not the be-all-end-all of reliable sources. Rooster was the first person to cite Fino as a reliable source. I pointed out that, although Fino knew what the inner workings of the family looked like, he could not accurately know what is going on in the unions today without it being educated speculation, since he flipped in 1989.

Bensonhurst. If you believe Rooster, Nickle, and exposed liar Giacomo over the feds, DAs, federal prosecutors, investigative journalists, and mob experts, go ahead.

Giacomo is a proven liar. He lied about hits committed by Tony Mirra, and admitted to it. Why did he lie? Who knows. That's one of many little tidbits of false knowledge which he pulls out of his magic hat.

If they are not members of the Luppino crime family, then why does a Canadian newspaper call Dominic Violi the “heir apparent” of the Luppino crime family? Did he formally approvedly switch over? If so, I’d like the evidence for that. ...Or was he made in both? I guess there is the possibility he was never made in the Todaro Family too. For not being speculatice, it seems to me like this is all speculation...

SORRY. That is my bad. I misread your post.

EDIT; I have since deleted it. I will respond soon.

I personally don't think the Violis were ever Todaro crime family members. That being said, if they did switch over to the Luppino crime group, which were rivalling the Todaros in Canada, that only adds weight to the notion that the Todaro crime group in Canada is defunct.

If there are OTHER members of the Todaro crime family that are working alongside the Luppinos, then that does not mean they are automatically Luppino family members. The feds are still obliged to label them from the original family that they were made into. See, Joseph Gagliano, Billy D'Elia, Eugene Castelle.

If the Violi brothers are not the members fo the Todaro Crime family that the Canadian newspapers talk about, who do you think is?

Personally, I believe the Violi's are the most likely choice, especially given the fact more than one Canadian paper makes a point to tie their history to the Buffalo Crime family.

Additionally, from what I understand, the old bosses of these Canadian families were made men & capos in Buffalo back in the day. This insured that Magaddino controlled these families operations. Hence I would say, at least in the 50's & 60's, these families were Buffalo crews yet 'Ndrangheta families. (Help me if I'm wrong with the history.) So did that make the soldiers in those Canadian families solders for the Buffalo Crime family also? I don't know that answer to that, but it seem logical to me.

And to throw another monkey wrench in this all... even though Giacomo Luppino would have been a capo in the Buffalo crime family, wasn't he the one that helped established the ruling panel for the Canadian 'Ndrangheta in the Toronto area? That sounds like he was active and made in both crime families and both Cosa Nostra and the 'Ndrangheta.

All we know is that everything get confusing when dealing with 'Ndrangheta in Canada and Buffalo had been/has been working with them for a long time.

It's confusing to say the least. Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me if there was still activity in Canada that evolved and merged from the Papalia crew, but nothing I've seen leads me to the conclusion that the Todaro crime family has a dedicated crew, structure, or hierarchy in place in Canada.

Nicky;

The Violi's are not members of Buffalo?

What do you base that on?

That the feds did not spell it out?

And if they are not Buffalo? What family are they with?

What do you base that on?
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Also, do you find it a bit odd that:

The foremost mafia expert in Hamilton would quote this:

In response to these arrests Canadian journalist Adrian Humphries wrote:

Among those arrested in Canada are members of the Todaro organized crime family, based in Buffalo, according to U.S. authorities. The Todaro crime group was built by the now-deceased Joseph Todaro Sr., who took over the Buffalo Mafia once led by the influential boss Stefano (The Undertaker) Magaddino.[1

He did write the book "The ENFORCER" about Papilla

Why did he only mention the Todaro Crime Family?
You can't say because the Violi's were originally made with them...

So the Violi's are high ranking memebers of a family that has international influence, that had a police force on their take....

And the powers that be only list the family that the VIOLI"s according to you are not a member of and have never been a member of.

Just not list the actual family they are with??

Nicky do you think Humphrey's would know about Papilia's crew and the rest of Hamilton LCN, basically two crews of Buffalo defected from the Buffalo family and went where???????

That is the first time and last time two actual crews defected from a family...

What family did they end up with?

Out of all that all the players RCMP, FBI, LE, Author, Journalists involved only choose to mention the DEFUNCT FAMILY???

Not the family the that the money is being kicked up to??
Not the boss of the family that they want to lock up.

Let us reference in our press release's only a family that is defunct for the past 11 years and noboy is a member of.

RIDDLE ME THAT?

Also-

Since the Violi's are NOT the made members of the Todaro family?

Who is?

Here are the 9 arrested in Canada:

Charged on Thursday morning were:1) Domenico Paolo Violi, Hamilton;2) Dimitar Dimitrov, Stoney Creek; 3) Adriano Valentino Scolieri, Richmond Hill; 4) Bernardo Luke Rotolo, Woodbridge; 5) Tran Giang Tang, 6) Kam Tim Tong, both of Markham; 7) Nicholas Valentine, Vaughan; 8)Anthony James Arroyo, Waterloo; 9) James Lincoln Jablonski, Mississauga.