Does anyone know how these two co-existed in LA n Hollywood during the 40s? Were they rivals or did they work together? Never really heard too much about these two since one respresented the NY families n the other the Outfit

They sure did ! There even video to prove it on YouTube . I am sure one of the guys on here will share it . Happy Xmas every one

They worked together for the most part during the time both were active in LA. Once Siegel began having his problems with NY over the Flamingo money, and Chicago took over his wire service, Roselli was already in prison.

Roselli and Siegel shared LA in the 30's and early 40's. Both had various rackets through the showbiz unions that didn't conflict with each other.

Roselli was indicted in '42 and didn't get out of prison until '47, the year Siegel died.

I forgot to mention they both worked together with the wire service out west, too. As far as anyone knows, it was an amicable set up between NY, Chicago, and the Dragnas. By the time Siegel started falling out of favor with everyone, Roselli had been in prison for some time. Roselli didn't go to Vegas until after Siegel's death

Thanks for clearing that up for me

And where fits Mickey Cohen in this? Didn't he survive 11 assassination attempts lol.

Cohen helped with the Flamingo and ran the sports book.

He was siegel's muscle. After siegel's death, he became a marked man in LA.

Anyone know how the Milanos of Cleveland factored into Cohen vs. Dragna? The Cohen book by Tere Tereba says the Milanos were aligned with Cohen. Peter Milano took over the LA family in the 80s.

The Milano were actually aligned with Lou Rothkopf who served under Frank Milano, uncle to Peter Milano. Cohen came back to Cleveland from Chicago, pretty sure he was working under Mattie Capone or one of the Capone brothers at the time, and talked to Lou Rothkopf who talked to Meyer Lansky who in turned talked to Busgy about Mickey heading out west. Anthony Milano, father to both Carmine and Peter Milano sent those two and Frankie G, the only made member at the time who served as a conduit and any sitdowns Cohen comes to, to L.A. to help out. When Cohen was released from prison in 1955, he was pulling a Joe Gallo, thus someone reached out Lou as Cohen was still angry over Bugsy being killed and was still involved in some joint business with Cleveland, Chicago and New York (Genovese), which was bad for them. Not much is known about the meeting but Lou stood by Cohen, and was later found dead in his car in 1956.

In Chicago Cohen worked under Jake Guzik, Matty Capone was an associate.

Thank you for correcting me Hollander, but Mickey Cohen was also close to one of the Capones.

Yes with Al's younger brother Matthew Capone.

I'm surprised Cohen wasn't killed when Siegel was. They had to have known that Cohen would be mad about it, and that he would never be willing to work with Dragna. I'm guessing that despite Cohen becoming a problem, he was so much more business savvy than Dragna that they still wanted to keep him alive.

Cohen did go to to the Hotel Roosevelt to challenge the alleged assassins who were said to be there at the time, by firing a couple of shots and told them to meet him outside, a few minutes later police sirens could be heard and Cohen left. During that time Las Vegas gamblers were also betting on Cohen and Dragna with Cohen being the favorite to win. It ended when Cohen went to jail. By this time Johnny Roseli already transferred back to Chicago to help look over L.A. for the mob. When Cohen was released in 1955, both him and Dragna were a lot more peaceful, but Cohen celebrity status rubbed a lot of LA members the wrong way. When Frank DeSimone became the boss he continued hostilities with Cohen and was trying to have Cohen killed.

I meant that I was surprised the syndicate didn't kill Cohen. I know the Dragnas tried. I have a tough time believing that the people who tried and failed to kill Cohen so many times were the same people who took out Siegel in one visit.

I dont know guys where you get that info from regarding Matty being involved with Cohen, mostly because he was the second legit brother after Jim Capone who became a cop and later even changed his name. As for Matty, he has no kind of criminal records except for the murder that occurred in his bar during the mid or late 1940's, which in fact was a brawl between two drunk guests.

So my point is that the real individual who was connected to Siegel and Cohen was in fact John Capone, who possibly was under auspices of his brother Ralph, the one time boss of the Cicero area until the early 50's or before he went to Wisconsin. John was the guy who frequently went to LA and met with Dranga and the previous two guys. Proof for that was the questioning of actor George Raft regarding their relationship in that same territory.

Thanks Toodoped! Many websites reported about Matthew and Mickey running a gambling operation great you correct that. Anyway Mickey was involved with the Capones.

Heres one doc which states that Tony Spilotro shouldve been Mickeys guest in 1975 but couldnt make it...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html...23&tab=page

And another one from the early 1960's in which Giancana says to Dragna that he "should walk right over Cohen"...

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=71098&relPageId=12&search=giancana_cohen

In addition, one Outfit associate and prominent gambling operator David Zatz, was closely associated with Lenny Patrick and Dave Yaras. Zatz operated a handbook operation from a cigar stand in the State of Illinois office building at 160 W. La Salle Street from 1946 until 1950, and besides having many contacts to gambling suckers, he also had business deals out west, especially Los Angeles and his contacts were Jimmy Fratiano from the Los Angeles crime family and also had close association with Mickey Cohen. On May 5, 1952, Zatz was killed by Patrick and Yaras because he allegedly stole from the profits

And btw Happy New Year

Cohen died in 1976. He was still active in 1975? I thought he was all Fucked up after the prison attack. For you TD, was the informant in the MF page ever revealed? It blows my mind that Spilotro had someone that close to him that was informing without him knowing. Those Chicago guys knew how to stay out of prison. That page states he was worried about that trial in 75/76 and we all know he never went away. If Calabrese never ratted, Lombardo would've never been convicted?

Happy New Year Toodoped, maybe a bit outside of your expertise but do you have anything on Mickey's relation with Carlos Marcello they seemed close.

I dont really remember the right time but I think that during the late 50's or 60's the feds started their top secret informant program which included members of the Outfit, including made guys and high level associates, so my point is that was the first real blow for the Chi Mob which almost completely destroyed their operations in their home town and got Giancana out of the country. So few of the most speculated informants are Blasi, Pierce and one of the Panzcko brothers. As for who is the informant in the Spilotro case, I really dont know but maybe some of the guys from around here do. Regarding Spilotro going to Cohen's house, I dont know, maybe like many of the old timers from that era, Cohen was also possibly visited by some of the rising big shots and hung around, who knows?! Cohen did die the next year in his sleep.

@Hollander sorry man i dont have any info on those two but you can do some research on the MF site and possibly find something

I was thinking the same, as the younger guys were reaching top positions, why not go to California and visit Mickey Cohen. But, like you said about the informants, that was 50's 60's. 40-50 years before they really got hit buy the Fed's. Far more longevity than N.Y.!

If you are talking about the Family Secrets trial, yes that was a real blow for the Outfit but in a hierarchial meaning, since they nearly touched their operations. But during the early 60's the Outfit was considered second, if not first, most powerful criminal organization in the country and so they were the prime target for the feds at the time. For example, from 1959 until 1961 their top boss Paul Ricca was jailed, in 1962 Accardo almost went to jail, they made Giancana nearly crazy and jailed him 1965 and later fled the country, Battaglia was jailed in 1966. But of you look at their most profitable operations, all of them were on the downfall like for example, the Bolita racket, the vending machine union, local handbook operations etc. There were even numerous inner conflicts between some of the high level members regarding the previous problem. Here's a list that I made some time ago which might clear things up a little bit and its regarding the feds' most successful operations at the time...


On February 26, 1959, 44 year old Hyman Larner took the stand in front of the Senate Labor- Management Committee which was headed by Senator McClellan and Robert Kennedy and that same year the Chicago Independent Amusement Association broke up.


In 1959, Ricca’s luck again ran out when he had problems with the Internal Revenue Service and the tax evasion charges came for the second time and was sent to four years in jail but served only three until 1961.


In Jaunuary. 1961, Tony Accardo was convicted on tax evasion charges but in 1962, he was retried and was acquitted.


In May 1961, the feds managed to close down one of the Outfit’s biggest money laundering operation which in fact was a front for another huge illegal operation known as loan sharking. The Twin Food Products Company, which was controlled by the Sam Battaglia group, was found guilty in the Municipal Court of Chicago for operating without a rendering license, and in August fines were imposed. In 1964, all of the defendants were indicted and found guilty of conspiracy to conceal assets in violation of the National Bankruptcy Act and were sentenced each to five years in prison and a $19,000 fines


On January 31, 1962 an F.B.I. electronic surveillance of Sam Giancana, in discussion with Gus Alex and Edward Vogel indicated that the Outfit’s gambling activities were concerned, for all practical purposes has come to an end. This occurred primarily because of the intense pressure placed upon the organization by the Federal government. This fact, coupled with the fact that the state and local police have been forced to move against the syndicate, has brought the Outfit to the realization that for the time being "everyone is on his own", meaning that the members no longer received support from the organization nor can anyone expect influence to be brought to bear on their behalf. The same year Sam Giancana offered $50,000 to Police Lieutenant Thomas Mahon of the Sheriff’s Police Department in Chicago, in exchange for information in advance on the police raids. Mahon turned down the offer. Few days later he received a telephone call from an individual who identified himself as Ross Prio. Prio told Mahon that he wished to do business considering the offer for the annual payment and that he should contact him at the Team O’Shanter Golf Course and to talk it over. Mahon again refused and never made any contacts with Prio. The FBI even invented the famous “Lock-step” program in which the agents followed the mobsters while being only few steps behind them


In January, 1963, all of the most profitable, North Side Outfit-connected lounges, such as the Liberty Lounge, The Rubi Lounge, The Allegro, The La Femme and the Playhouse, which were owned by the so-called Rush Street or Ross Prio group, have been knocked off by the police. Prio was very angry about the raids, especially about the raid on the Playhouse joint since it was its first raid in more than 30 years


In March, 1963, the feds raided one of Frank Caruso’s most profitable crap game operations on 238 West Cermak Road, besides the $50,000 and three large poker tables, the cops also found numerous burglary tools, including masks, dynamite blasting caps and wires.


On May 18, 1963, the cops also raided another of Frank Caruso’s main operations called the Tomahawk Athletic Club at 2418 South Wentworth Avenue


By the end of 1963, the Outfit was forced by the feds to sell or close down two of its most important disposal firms, including the West Suburban Scavenger Service and also the Standard Disposal and Metal Company


On July 23, 1964 the central bookmaking office of the Outfit in an apartment at North Jersey, Chicago, possibly overseen by the Ross Prio group, was raided and closed down by the feds


On February 2, 1964, both Outfit associates Tommy Durso and Mike Gargano were arrested on charges for transporting and selling narcotics and also for controlling one of the Mob’s largest dope peddling operations around the Chicago area at the time. Since they were even charged on murder, in November, 1964, both defendants were sentenced from 100 to 150 years in prison. Five years later broth convicts were paroled and released from prison.


In September, October and November of 1965, the feds managed to close down the Outfit’s biggest auto-theft operation which stretched all around Illinois, Indiana, Michigan and Ohio. They arrested over 15 men, including Al Tocco, Richard Buonomo, Pasquale Accettura, Carmen Apicella and ex-Capone associate 77-year old Herman David a.k.a. Motorcycle Mike


On October 28, 1965, the feds raided one of the Outfit’s biggest betting centers in the Buena Terrace hotel, 4246 Sheridan Road. The center handled at least $100,000 a week in wagers and was allegedly controlled by the Lenny Patrick group.


On April 22, 1966, Chicago detectives led a raid to a second floor apartment at 5045 Clark Street, which was a large handbook operation controlled by the Elmwood Park and Lenny Patrick groups


On April 27, 1966, federal agents raided two large scale horse and sports betting wire rooms in the North and North/West Side rackets sanctuary of the Lenny Patrick and Ross Prio groups. That same day, internal revenue agents broke their way thru the doors of another third floor apartment at 1339 Early Avenue, and the records which were seized indicated a weekly handle of at least $50,000 in bets


In March, 1966, the Outfit’s main dope supplier and member of the Chicago Heights crew Al Roviaro was sentenced to 10 years for peddling dope


On August 14, 1966 forty-three men and women were arrested in a raid by federal agents and city police on a West Side crime syndicate crap game located on a first-floor apartment at 2118 Warren blvd. They also found a large amount of white powder that appeared to be a narcotic


On February 23, 1967, Sam Battaglia, Joseph Amabile, Nick Palermo, Dave Evans, Mayor Henri Neri, Alderman Leo Shababy and Alderman Joseph Drozd were taken to the Federal District Court on conspiracy charges and later all were sentenced to prison.


On April 27, 1967, Chicago detectives led a raiding party on a second floor apartment at 3001 Gunnison Street, and behind the barricades the cops found a clearing house which handled an estimated $50,000 a week in wagers for North Side groups such as Lenny Patrick and Ross Prio


On September 9, 1967, Chicago detectives raided an apartment on the 10th floor of a building at 40 E. Oak Street and that same day other group of detectives led a raid on a clearing house in a 26th floor apartment at 420 Belmont Avenue. This clearing house served for more than 20 North Side bookmakers and was controlled by Lenny Patrick and Ross Prio


On October 7, 1967 the cops raided a big clearing hose on Chicago’s North Side. The clearing house, which reportedly serviced more than 30 individual bookmakers for the North Side mob, was controlled by Ross Prio. The clearing house was located half a block from the offices of the Illinois Crime Investigating Commission at 300 W. Washington St.


On February 8, 1968 Chuckie Nicoletti was arrested together with one of his associates Joe Scaramuzzo in his grocery during a raid on a bookmaking joint. The joint was operated by Nicoletti in a room at the rear of the food store which was owned by his wife, Agnes, at 1000 Loomis blvd. The bookie joint which handled an estimated $100,000 a month in horse bets. Besides gambling paraphernalia seized in the raid, the detectives confiscated a sawed- off shotgun, a .38 caliber revolver and a pamphlet which told how to "bug" police radio calls with a new electronic eavesdropping device. The cops also found a shotgun and a .38 caliber revolver in a room at the rear of the food store


In 1968 and 1969, the feds managed to break one of the Outfit’s main burglary crews, including two Outfit members William Daddano sentenced to 15 years and Richard Cain received 4 years, and also Rocco Montagna, John Varelli, Frank Sr. and Frank Jr. DeLegge


On August 19, 1969, the U.S. Attorney’s Office made an indictment against Paul Ricca, Jack Cerone and four other Outfit members Joe Ferriola, Don Angelini, Dom Cortina and Frank Aureli, on interstate gambling charges thanks primarily to Lou Bombacino’s testimony. In the end, Ricca was the only one who got acquitted

Wow, thanks Toodoped. I didn't realize they actually did that much damage to the Outfit back then. I just thought they illegally bugged hangouts and followed guys around all the time. When and why did the pressure ease up?

Worth noting that this is Louis Tom Dragna, not Jack. Jack died in 1956. It's interesting Giancana had such disdain for Cohen, however. For what it's worth, Cohen outlasted Giancana.

Thanks for all of that TD. Was Gus Alex the first top tier guy to die in prison? We all know Accardo beat the G, Ricca died in the hospital, Giancana was assassinated, even Capone died at home.

@MightyDR I think that the heat went lower from 1971 until the end of decade, since they were somehow stabilized in both hierarchial and financial meaning, but at the same time that same decade was the most murderous one with over 80 murders (EDITED)

@blueracing347 yeah Alex was probably the first top guy to die in prison

@OakAsFan yes I forgot to mention that was Louis Dragna but why its worth nothing? And still, I dont see how Cohen outlasted Giancana, except if you are talking about regarding he living a year more than Giancana. But if you look at the situation on who was active longer, well Giancana was still quite deeply involved in the illegal stuff and had a lot of cash at least until 1973, while Cohen spent almost the whole 1960's in and out of jail and was released in 1972 and never made a dime during that period and came out as retired legend

Toodoped, I said "worth noting", not worth "nothing". lol.

Giancana had to be smart enough to know that nobody was going to walk right over Mickey Cohen. I think both Giancana and Roselli helped instigate the war between the Dragna family and Cohen, knowing that the LAPD would come down like thunder on both organizations, which they did, and Chicago could pick up the pieces.