i agree, i think fredo accepted his forgiveness during the embrace between him and michael. its hard to judge how much michael and fredo communicated between the moment of their mothers funeral and the murder of fredo.
anyone know if there was much that went on between them during that period? and how long of a wait it was between the funeral and fredos death?
either way, that murder was to top all murders. the murder of your own brother. as blind and clueless as fredo was in most situations, i dont think fredo would have ever believed that michael would actually commit to killing him.
robert

I can understand some issues being a matter of interpretation or opinion such as who would be the better wife, Appollonia or Kay; or who would be the better Don, Sonny or Michael; or the ever famous question, did Fredo need to be killed.

But as far as Fredo knowing or not knowing he was gonna be killed, I think we need to take a step back and rememeber our first viewing of the movie. I agree with the others that Fredo did not have a clue.

The Hail Mary thing was simply a prayer to catch fish, that's it. Heck, I remember my parents saying, say a Hail Mary that the weather is good for the picnic tomorrow, or I'd say one to get a decent grade on a test. Granted, perhaps not the most unselfish reason to pray, but I think we all tend to "pray" for little insignificant things.

If Fredo was so brave to accept his death, why did he run like hell in Cuba when Mike was telling him to get in the car with him??? He surely must have thought then his fate was sealed. He was petrified that he would get killed. Human nature makes us resist death.

TIS

You guys are all wrong...

The scene is pourposely done in this fashion to leave us, as the viewer, guess and wondering... we are left to decide if for ourselves much like we all wonder what the hell was in that case in PULP FUCTION.

It creates intrigue and there is no one single answer.

theres no one single answer, and yet we are all wrong?

Actually, there IS a single answer, and that is that Fredo didn't know.

I believe that is the way the entire scene was set up, there is no room for guessing or interpreting as long as one has paid attention to the entire rest of the film.

Fredo didn't know.

Apple

apple, read the post above mine........you may have misunderstood my post.
robert

No, Robo...I did understand your post in response to the one before it.

I just liked your wording and decided to latch onto it to continue with the fun...!!!



Although I'll admit I could've taken the same words from LCN's post, still I liked yours better.

Kissing up...
Apple

gotcha.....salud!
robert

Nah, he knew

I asked him just before hand.

referring to Fredo running in Cuba is relevant- he ran, yes, for his life, but when Anthony left the boat, he realised he couldnt run anymore

Some people are getting slightly wound up over this issue

I think LCN is right in terms of the way the scene can be left open to interpretation

As long as you understand he knew

If only it were that simple.

Sure are...if only they'd get a grip & accept the obvious which is that Fredo didn't know, they'd be so much HAPPIER !!!

Apple

Forget it Apple, He is only pulling your chain.

I know that, fssn...and I'm pulling his!!

Geez, people - try & understand I'm capable of having a little fun even amidst my unrelenting views on this particular 'topic'.



Apple

He did know. he was tired of runnung and knew he could run all his life and still not get away.He had to have known what tha mafia is capable of and he had to have known he could never truely escape.Death on the lake might have been a relief for him.He would no longer have to worry about his problems.

Ok now that I read what I just wrote, I think that might be giving him too much credit, but he DID know!

That's the most amusing theory I've seen yet!!

Thanks, DSC for injecting a special touch of humor into the thread!

Apple

someone help me out.....when was fredo ever running, other than in cuba?? i recall him having a meeting with michael, i recall him wanting to talk to michael at the funeral, and when the embrace took place i think he felt forgiven, michael wouldnt even be there if fredo was there, now they were holding each other. he had to have felt secured. if he indeed knew, AND WAS RUNNING, i really find hard to believe he would just accept it and stay on that boat without trying to kill neri himself and make a name for himself which he has been trying to do all this time. please tell me when he was running so i can try to imagine him being tired of it.
robert

I dont think we ever SEE Fredo actually RUNNING again, but if you feel your life is at risk staying in a certain place, you are going to leave.
Lets use Apple's plan for a minute- Fredo,upon Anthony leaving the boat, knows he's going to die(which he did know )He then simply gets off the boat.He now knows his life is in danger and is going to try to leave the dangerous place(the compound)Mike wont let him.Now that he's in that situation, he constantly has to look over his shoulder.
I'm not saying a brilliant guy like Freddie came up with this all at once. He knew when Anthony left, but if he truely did not want to face death, he could have thought this through and ended the trip early, before Neri had the chance to kill him.

Except that Fredo didn't leave the boat because he didn't know.

And again...you're giving this dimwit credit for having the following though process the moment his nephew is called away:

"Uh, oh...this looks bad I think it's a trap, Al's going to kill me once Anthony is out of sight. I'd better get outa here but WAIT...now I realize Michael wants me dead, but where am I going to go I know they won't let me off the compound oh, well it looks like there's no escaping it now I may as well let Al take me out on the lake, blow me away and dump my body overboard because it's gonna happen sooner or later and by the way I'll use that Hail Mary thing as a final prayer before dying instead of just to catch a fish...."

Yes, DSC - next time I watch the movie I'll look for all that on Fredo's face...since John Cazale being the excellent actor that he was, would surely have conveyed it.

To think what I've been missing all these years....

And by the way....once that boat hit the water, there was no escape for Fredo whether he knew or didn't know what was going on. This was gonna happen. Ending the trip early to prolong his life (had he known, which he didn't) is simply laughable.

Apple

PS - Fredo didn't know.

that was pretty damn funny

fredo didnt know he wouldn't accept being killed he'd run as far as possible if he knew he was gonna die.

Fredo does not know he is about to be killed.

The "hail mary" thing is only to make the scene more powerful. If he had told Tony that to catch a fish he always lets say sang a Johnny Fontaine song, then he would have died singing. It's only to make the scene more sad that he dies praying, Unknown that he's about to be shot.

I don't know anyone can think Fredo deserved to die.

I believe that Fredo did know, but not until Anthony gets out of the boat. Think about it... what has happened EVERY SINGLE TIME that Michael has suddenly changed travel plans at the last minute?? (Tessio, Carlo)... Fredo must have been on to that.

I think when Fredo realized that Michael decided to take Anthony to Reno all of a sudden, he knew his time was up. Like a lot of people have mentioned before, when Fredo says "let's go Al." I kind of got the feeling that he was resigned to his fate. At least Neri had the common courtesy to let him finish his hail mary before he shot him.

Of course, this is only my opinion, and my interpretation of the scene. Nobody knows for sure.

oh yes, the disclaimer.....very important!

I thought I said that he didnt have to go through this process all at once.He could have been out on the lake when his thought process finally wrapped up. If he had made the decision to run, he could have said,"Al, my jacket has a hole in it and I'm FREEZING (or something stupid like that)Lets do this some other time" and had Al pull the boat back around.

Helps avoid heated arguments. CYA, ya know?

What makes you think Fredo had any knowledge of how the deaths of Tessio & Carlo (or even Moe Green) were arranged?

By this time he had no involvement in any of the family business other than his Vegas duties. Also by this time, he had already taken sides "against the Family" at least once.

That he'd be in on details like last minute changes in travel arrangement is doubtful.

HOWEVER, for simple viewer consideration it IS a very good catch !!

Best,
Apple

Point taken...but if he had had this 'thought process' once out on the lake, do you really think he'd accept it all and calmly drop his line into the water and recited that catch-a-fish Hail Mary while waiting for Al to pump the bullet?

OR...being so brave and accepting in your opinion, would he have simply turned to Al and said, "OK, I know what's going on and I'm ready so let's just get it overwith, please make it quick and paiinless...".



If you think either one then you clearly do not understand the character.

And again...once the boat hit the water there was no escape. Even if he figured it out (which he didn't) and came up with some lame excuse to end the trip early, Al would not have complied. He had a job to do and he was going to do it.

Apple

PS - Don Sonny Corleone...your theories are getting so ridiculous that I'm beginning to think you're just pulling my leg to keep responses coming.

Which if you are, is fine because the weekend is near and I'll soon be away from the board for a couple of days and...I've really been having fun with this thread!!

So Apple, what your saying then is, Fredo didn't know???

Now, if I only knew your opinion as to whether or not Fredo "had" to be killed.

Another "neverending" thread hu?


TIS

Wow..... this is a bit of a thorny issue, and not one I'd really given any consideration to until now.

But I've got too agree that Fredo didn't know. After Michael supposedly "forgave" him, his relief is palpable, I truly think he believed he was back in the fold.

When he runs away from Michael, that is out of panic and confusion, and not knowing who to trust....Michael, Roth......the whole nights events had shook him up.

I agree that Fredo does display a look of resignation when Anthony leaves to "go to Reno" instead of going fishing, but I think that is probably more disappointment on Fredo's part, he had obviously planned a fishing trip with his nephew and that had fallen through. He probably also hoped that getting closer to Anthony would bring him closer to Michael. Besides, Fredo often had that "oh well" expression. If Fredo had sussed what was going on at that stage, he would have bolted. He is basically a cowardly character and its not really in his nature to face his death like some kind of samurai warrier.

Gosh, TIS...I really haven't made up my mind yet !!

At least one thing's for sure...whether he knew about it or not, he HAD to go!!

Apple