Wassup guys this is my first post. I've seen all movies a total of about five or six times each, but i was justin wondering if you guys think that Fredo knew Michael was gonna kill that night with Neri. And another thing im not sure about, which is were Neri and Fredo that close to be going fishing in the first place? I think he knew and just accepted it, it was just ironic that it happened while he was sayin his Hail Mary. So what do u guys think?

Welcome, I posted this a little while back (with the same name) but I dont feel like finding it.I think that when Anthony was called back, Fredo knew, and he accepted it. He knew he betreyed his brother,even if it wasnt on purpose.He probably would have said Hail mary because that was his fishing secret, but it added a lot to the scene.Hope you enjoy your stay on the BB

No, Fredo didn't know.

Fredo was not the type to face death gallantly, especially after being led to believe that all was forgiven. He was a nice guy but a weak, spineless coward and that had not changed since his boathouse showdown with Michael.

If he had even the slightest inkling of what was about to happen, he would've never set foot in that boat.

Apple

First of all, I never considered Fredo & Neri fishing pals. Neri was after all, a trusted employee of the family and at that point probably had taken Fredo and Anthony on many a fishing trip out on the lake. I would guess was there predominantly to operate the boat.

And with regard to the Hail Mary, you might recall an earlier scene (and a previous fishing trip) where Fredo tells Anthony that this was a trick he had to catch more than his brothers, when they went out fishing as boys with their father. So I guess we can gather from that that he recited the prayer EVERY TIME he went fishing, not just this once before getting shot in the back of the head.

Apple

True, but after Tony was called back, I think he did have at least a slight thought, but he accepted it. Notice the way he says "Lets' go Al" What else was he going to do, run screaming off the boat and be shot in front of his nephew?

I don't think Fredo knew because he had a childlike mentality. maybe he thought Michael forgave him. But maybe he did know because Anthony was called back. You make a good point.

I agree with AppleOnYa and Patches. I think it's a stretch to think that Fredo knew, and it's
over-analyzing the scene. After all the time that passed since the argument with Micheal, Fredo would have been lulled into believing he was safe.
Also, he always lacked the killer instinct and street smarts that would have been required to
figure it out.

Very well said madewoman. I see we are on the same level---and @ Partagas-neither would I!

He had no idea.

When Connie called out that Michael wanted to take Anthony to Reno 'NOW', then Fredo was disappointed to have to let his nephew go but still interested in going fishing. So what was he going to say besides, 'Let's go, Al....'.

If Fredo had had even the slightest clue that this was all a setup he would not have had to run screaming but simply say to Al that he didn't feel like going without Anthony, would wait for another time, and get out of the boat. In that case, what would there be for Al to do? Even if Fredo appeared nervous and let on that he was suspicious, Al would not have been able to blow him away right then & there...!!! They had to be out on the lake where there would be little to clean up and the body could be easily dumped overboard.

Fredo didn't know, Michael and Al knew he wouldn't know, because they knew he thought he was now in the clear...and that was how they planned and accomplished the killing.

Apple

Fredo may not have been the brightest bulb in the box, but no way did he even suspect he was set-up and wouldn't have been stupid enough to continue the fishing trip had he known. Actually, I agree with Apple. When Anthony was called back, Fredo was obviously disappointed, but had no clue of what was to happen.


TIS

Hey there, TIS !!

Good call. Fredo was neither stupid enough nor BRAVE enough to have accepted and faced his death so gallantly. He proved that time & time again throughout BOTH parts I and II.

I'm not sure what makes some people think that trait would suddenly change at that moment on the boat with Al.

Apple

Apple, you seem to think Fredo is a sack of clay, with absolutly no human thought process.He was smarter than you give him credit for.Although he was able to be misled by Roth and the like, he had to have at least suspected something wasnt right. Would his father let someone who had betreyed/been misled to betrey/whatever the family not once, but twice; would his father had let someone like that go? He had to have realized that by now there was no way he was going to be the Don, and maybe in a way this was a relief, of not having to look over his shoulder all the time.
madewoman-Of corce we're over-analyzing the scene, but what fun would it be if we didnt?
BTW- This is that topic I started a while ago Did Fredo know?

I think your being a little overly critical on what Apple said. Fredo wasn’t very smart; this point is shown many times in Godfather Part 1 & 2. Can you name 1 thing Fredo actually did which would portray him as being smart or smarter than we give him credit for? I for the life of me cant, I can though think of actions which were stupid on his part.

- Fumbling his gun when Vito got shot - Okay anyone can get nervous but it didn’t look good on his part.

- Siding with Moe Green in an argument with Michael, the first sign of things to come

- At Anthony’s party, he could not control his wife, shows he was quite a weak man.

- Helping Roth & not realizing the repercussions of those actions

- At first telling Michael he didn’t know Johnny Ola, then later at the Superman show, letting his tongue be a little too loose gave away that lie.

- Not leaving with Michael after the New Year's Eve Party that maybe construed as a smart move because he might have thought Michael might kill him but we knew that Michael never planned to kill him until after his Mother died. So not leaving with Michael made the situation worse

- Believing that Michael had actually forgiven him, we all wanted to think "Yes, Michael can let this pass" but this was the 2nd time Fredo went against the family, if Fredo was as sharp as his brothers (maybe not Sonny) then he would have realized.

Sure there are others too but I’m sure from that compiled list we can agree Fredo was pretty dumb and not ‘SMArt’ as he described himself.

Well, gosh DSC...I wouldn't have used precisely those words, but gotta give you credit you come pretty close.

Had Fredo possessed a 'human thought process', perhaps he may have considered the consequences in assisting Roth in no matter how minor a way, in the negotiations with his brother. Perhaps he might have wondered, even asked...exactly WHAT was in it for him once he got them what they wanted. Perhaps he would've realized that something in it for him, ON HIS OWN, was virtually impossible whether working for Michael OR Roth.

Perhaps if Fredo posessed a 'human thought process', he might have become just a bit suspicious about simply being 'bumped into' by Johnny Ola, then being wined, dined and treated to Superman shows (playing upon one of Fredo's main weaknesses), and then eventually being asked to help them in dealing with Michael, his Don, his own brother....as if this never would've happened if it were not for their 'chance' meeting. Perhaps if even once he'd bothered to use a 'thought process' and put 2 & 2 together, he'd have come up with 4, pulled out and informed Mike that he'd been approached. Perhaps the gratitude and new found respect from Mike would
have been far greater a reward than any that could be offered by Hyman Roth.

But no....it was precisely because he did NOT posess a thought process that he was chosen as the perfect mark by Ola & Roth. They knew they could count on him to simply follow the carrot they dangled in front of him, and not look beyond or even on either side of it.


Of course he suspected something wasn't right. He was being asked to turn traitor to his Don. He probably knew it would be wrong to do so. But since there was something in it for him on his own...that didn't matter.

No 'human thought process'. Fantastic choice of words, DSC...couldn't have put it better myself.

Thanks,
Apple

This subject hits very close to Apples heart. I've notice that this one, about Fredo knowing or not seems to bring Apple to the front. She knows what she thinks and isn't afraid to defend her views. Every time someone brings this up again, she takes the time to set the record straight.
Good for her.

and even if the film has been out fifty years, they will bring these tuff question up. Mario is gone, FFC doesn't spill the beans. Some of these tuff question may never be answered.

And I'll be the old bag of wind still hanging around ready to answer them !!

Thanks for your input, fathersson....you're sweet!

Apple

I reckon he did know. Said it before and I'll say it again. The "lets go" bit to Al reminded me of Tessio in the first one, he knew he'd been caught and he left quietly. I like to view it as Fredo's one noble act

However, Fredo was not Tessio, not even close.... and quite frankly, his one 'noble' act (or at least as close to noble as Fredo could get) was hanging up on Johnny Ola that night he called for more information.

Apple

True, no one is saying that Fredo was going to invent the internet, and he was a pretty dull guy, but he wasnt THAT dull. Had he thought about it, no one just kidnaps another boss and doesnt hurt them. But with Fredo's already weak mind and his greed, it got in the way. Greed gets in the way of even the smartest people, Tessio, for instance.Although Fredo was no Tessio, being around the Mafia all your life doesnt teach you that they just forgive and forget. I'm sure that Fredo would have done the same thing to Mike if the roles were reversed. Fredo knew he wouldnt be forgiven so he made friends with Anthony to show himself, and hopefully Mike, that he was with the family know, and intended to be "good". But on the lake, without Anthony, he knew he was not in thier good graces. (Yeah this is old, so what)Even if he would have gotten off the boat and "gone another time" he still wouldnt have been allowed to leave the compound. he would still be there, and Mike could easily have had someone sneak into his house and kill him. Fredo knew there was no way out and accepted it.

Im not even sure if you would put it down to greed for the reason he betrayed the family. As he said to Michael, he wanted his own cut, not for the money but to show Michael yes he was useful to the family & could make his own way. He also said he was 'Overstepped' by his younger brother, he wanted to disprove the reason for that happening & show everyone he was better than what they thought of him.

And he sure did show them, didn't he.

He showed them all!!!

Way to go, Fredo...

AppleOnYa

Greed doesnt have to just be about money. You can be greedy for power.

Of course not, Tessio was the smart one

There was no escape for Fredo, he knew it. The ' lets go al', and the Hail Mary story just clinch it for me


He would never escape Michael. He accepted his death

So what are you saying? He knew he was going to be killed while fishing? Because his story about 'Hail Mary' was told many days if not weeks before his death. So what he knew that was the way he was going to die, decided to Anthony about it & then just accepted his imminent death? Was this a sign to Anthony of what his father had done & was capable of? Bit farfetched, there was no way he knew, I’m betting even if Al said “let’s go fishing” before he reconciled with Michael that he would not have suspected a thing.

What?... are you talking about?

He told Anthony the story as a tale from his childhood, obviously not telling Anthony he was going to die. Only when anthony left the boat did he realise he was going to die (in my opinion). He started to pray- he says becausehe did that when fishing, but really as his way of making peace with god. So..not far fetched, just an opinion.

And saying Fredo would have not suspected al asking him to go fishing when he was still not reconicled with michael is just plain silly.

Fredo was not the brightest, but he was not a complete moron

The only reason he 'accepted his death' is because he didn't know it was coming.

As for him not being a 'complete moron', maybe not but he didn't have to be one to not realize he was being set up.

Some who discuss this over & over may not take into account that WE know Fredo's fate only because we've seen the film over and over and over again. We know it's coming, we know WHEN it's coming and we're ready.

But there are many here, including yours truly, who were taken by surprise and completely shocked at what happened to Fredo after Michael had apparently let him off. Furthermore, the first time I saw it I too thought Mike was a heel, how could he do such a horrible thing...until watching the movie a few times and over a few years and coming to the understanding that Fredo did, indeed have to go.

If we didn't see it coming that very first time...why would the cowardly, weak, stupid Fredo? Are we all complete morons?

Because some of continue to feel sorry for Fredo, we give the character far more credit than he really deserves.

He didn't know.

Best,
Apple

Apple! How good it is to see you. I had no one to argue with all weekend!
The Hail Mary was simply a ritual, nothing more, nothing less.
I dont feel sorry for Fredo, he deserved it. I think some of us underestimate the character.

I agree he didnt see it coming... until Michael took Anthony away. Then, I believe he knew

Of course we didnt see it coming either, but then we were watching a film for the first time... Fredo knew his brother for his whole life, and what the family (especially under Michael) was capable of... and it all came together at that one moment. I for one knew the minute Al and Fredo went out on the boat something was going to happen

The only 'ritual' involved in Fredo's reciting of the 'Hail Mary' was the one he had used since he was a kid fishing with his father & brothers...as he had explained to his nephew in an earlier scene. Every time he said the Hail Mary, he caught a fish.

That's all it meant to him, this last time too...it was NOT a gallant facing of the moment of his death...since he didn't know it was coming.

When Connie called Anthony off the boat, he promised the boy they'd go fishing again 'tomorrow'...and that he'd catch a fish using their 'secret'.

If Fredo had even the slightest inkling that his life might be in danger once left along with Al, he would've gotten off that boat as quickly as he could. He trusted Al, he trusted Michael...he thought he was forgiven.

Nothing 'came together' at the moment Anthony was called away. If we just look at Fredo in just about every single scene, from both Parts I and II...leading up to this last one, it is so clear that he just did not have it in him to face and accept death so calmly and bravely.

Get with it, folks...he did not know.

Best,
Apple

I second Apple's opinion. There's nothing to suggest that Fredo knew his execution was coming.. the fact that his "secret" conveniently is reciting a Hail Mary is besides the point and serves to make us THINK he was aware.