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Michael and Tom #7866
04/14/04 07:45 AM
04/14/04 07:45 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,150
MI6
Krlea Offline OP
Underboss
Krlea  Offline OP
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,150
MI6
Quick question: At the end of Godfather II, Why does Michael start accusing Tom? Is it just Michael's paranoia getting him and Tom is the only one left to accuse? Besides the job offers, is there something that I am missing?

Re: Michael and Tom #7867
04/14/04 08:28 AM
04/14/04 08:28 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,849
Netherlands
M.M. Floors Offline
Underboss
M.M. Floors  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,849
Netherlands
Accusing him of what???

Re: Michael and Tom #7868
04/14/04 09:02 AM
04/14/04 09:02 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 21
NJ
tuneturner Offline
Wiseguy
tuneturner  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 21
NJ
I wouldn't say Michael isn't accusing him of anything but more like testing his loyalty. Michael knows he has to level the playing field and that Tom's feelings have been hurt along the way because he feels he should be closer to Mike on all the decisions. Knowing Tom could consider the VP position from Houstan's Hotels Mike asks him if he is going to come along with him in these things he has to do. Once Tom shows his loyalty all is well again.
Have a great day!


"This is the business we have chosen."
Re: Michael and Tom #7869
04/14/04 09:41 AM
04/14/04 09:41 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Several things are happening in that scene:
First, Michael had always acted as his own consigliere. He needed Tom after the Tahoe shooting. Now, he's putting Tom back in his place.
Second, he's acting on his dissatisfaction with Tom's performance. He left the family in Tom's hands before he departed for Miami, New York and Havana. When he came back, he found that Kay had had an abortion, and the Senate committee had nearly trapped him into perjury convictions because Tom failed to discover that Pentangeli was alive. You and I might not blame Tom for these things, but I think Michael's view was that "it happened on Tom's watch."
Third, Neri was making a move to displace Tom as Michael's number-two guy. Notice the smirk on Neri's face when Michael makes that speech about the job offer and Tom's mistress--it's clear that Neri was the source of that info.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Michael and Tom #7870
04/14/04 03:22 PM
04/14/04 03:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,150
MI6
Krlea Offline OP
Underboss
Krlea  Offline OP
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,150
MI6
Thanks! I knew there was something I was missing. Now that I know about Neri, it makes more sense.

Re: Michael and Tom #7871
04/14/04 04:08 PM
04/14/04 04:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 198
Saddle Brook, NJ
Justin Offline
Made Member
Justin  Offline
Made Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 198
Saddle Brook, NJ
I wonder if Neri knew that Rocco was never going to return from the shooting of Roth and his position would be cemented even further.


Justin
Re: Michael and Tom #7872
04/14/04 04:52 PM
04/14/04 04:52 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 10
C
Cicc' Offline
Wiseguy
Cicc'  Offline
C
Wiseguy
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 10
I always wondered what the significance was of Michael talking with Tom partly in Sicilian in that scene.

What was Michael implying?

Re: Michael and Tom #7873
04/15/04 01:02 AM
04/15/04 01:02 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
He said, "So you're staying?" And Tom said, "Yes, I'm staying." I think Michael reverted to Sicilian to reinforce that this was about loyalty to the family.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Michael and Tom #7874
04/15/04 04:29 AM
04/15/04 04:29 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 292
Dunfermline, Scotland
The Scottish Don Offline
Capo
The Scottish Don  Offline
Capo
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 292
Dunfermline, Scotland
I always found it odd that Neri had the balls to try and squeeze his way past Tom in the "rankings", Tom being a brother in everything but blood after all.

Would have been another potential storyline in between the end of Part II and Tom passing away, the Neri/Tom challenge. Unless of course, Tom had passed away by the time Michael was sitting all alone in the garden, dreaming of yesteryear......

Re: Michael and Tom #7875
04/15/04 10:04 AM
04/15/04 10:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
AppleOnYa Offline
AppleOnYa  Offline

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
Quote
Originally posted by The Scottish Don:
I always found it odd that Neri had the balls to try and squeeze his way past Tom in the "rankings", Tom being a brother in everything but blood after all....
Why would anyone find it odd? That was the nature of the business they were in. You paid your dues, scratched & clawed if you had to...to get a higher and higher position within the Family. Neri had been around for many years at this point and saw how Tom was being treated by Michael (though he may not have been made aware of all the reasoning behind it). He knew all along what would eventually happen to Fredo. The fact that Tom was Michael's brother wouldn't inhibit Neri in the slightest bit if he saw an opening that could move him further up and Tom further out.

Apple


A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

- THOMAS JEFFERSON

Re: Michael and Tom #7876
04/15/04 11:37 AM
04/15/04 11:37 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
goombah Offline
goombah  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
Quote
Originally posted by The Scottish Don:
Would have been another potential storyline in between the end of Part II and Tom passing away, the Neri/Tom challenge. Unless of course, Tom had passed away by the time Michael was sitting all alone in the garden, dreaming of yesteryear......
Or another "what if?": What if Neri whacked Tom in order to be Michael's undisputed #2 man?

Re: Michael and Tom #7877
04/19/04 01:02 AM
04/19/04 01:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
EnzoBaker Offline
Capo
EnzoBaker  Offline
Capo
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
Quote
Originally posted by Krlea:
Quick question: At the end of Godfather II, Why does Michael start accusing Tom? Is it just Michael's paranoia getting him and Tom is the only one left to accuse? Besides the job offers, is there something that I am missing?
It was to lay the groundwork for GF III. The MIchael-Tom Hagen conflict was going to be the major story line. wink


"You did good."
Re: Michael and Tom #7878
05/04/04 01:36 AM
05/04/04 01:36 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 64
washington dc
sonof70s Offline
Button
sonof70s  Offline
Button
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 64
washington dc
Related question: what did Michael mean in GFI when he said "you're out Tom". He wasn't out, but did Mike see Tom as a threat to take over the family and needed to tell him to back off?


"...for old times' sake?"
Re: Michael and Tom #7879
05/04/04 07:50 AM
05/04/04 07:50 AM
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 41
Scotland
HevyDevyGK Offline
Wiseguy
HevyDevyGK  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 41
Scotland
I think it was just so that Tom was only involved in more legitimate things. Tom would never become Don or try and become Don

Re: Michael and Tom #7880
05/04/04 09:50 AM
05/04/04 09:50 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Two reasons, I believe:
First, as Hevy said, Michael wanted Tom to be completely "legitimate" so he could successfully front for Michael in Nevada, where Michael intended to be "legitimate."
Second, Michael told Tom, "You're not a wartime consigliere." I believe he meant that Tom lacked "Sicilian cunning" and "ruthlessness"--qualities that Michael may have felt could have prevented the Five Families War of 1946, Sonny's death and Michael's own succession to the Donship. In the novel, Tom blames himself for Sonny's death. "He was, he knew now, no fit consigliere for a family at war. He had been fooled, faked out, by theFive Families...Old Genco Abbandando would never have fallen for it, he would have smelled a rat...tripling his precautions."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Michael and Tom #7881
05/04/04 10:34 AM
05/04/04 10:34 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
plawrence Offline
RIP StatMan
plawrence  Offline
RIP StatMan
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
Quote
Originally posted by EnzoBaker:
Quote
Originally posted by Krlea:
[b] Quick question: At the end of Godfather II, Why does Michael start accusing Tom? Is it just Michael's paranoia getting him and Tom is the only one left to accuse? Besides the job offers, is there something that I am missing?
It was to lay the groundwork for GF III. The MIchael-Tom Hagen conflict was going to be the major story line. wink [/b]
I don't think so. The two films were more than 15 years apart, and, if I'm not mistaken, MP & FFC originally had no intention of making #3 until Paramount twisted their arms (and probably waved a lot of money at them).


"Difficult....not impossible"

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