A few questions to those anti-French people on this board:

a) do you think that The Statue of Liberty should be taken down or hated because it was French-made and a gift from the French to the States because of 100 independent years?
b) do you think that the French should change the colour of their flag because they are using your colours or vice-versa?
c) why should a country have to help another one in a war which it disagrees with, and if it doesn't agree to help, then it will be hated by the other country?
d) why do you think that changing French fries to Freedom fries is offensive to the French at all; especially when French fries are fatty, heart-attack causing pieces of dried up shit that were never French in the first place?
e) what is the point of discriminating France/the French when that is exactly what your country is supposed to be fighting against; discrimination...in fact, your country stands for freedom and equality. A contradiction? Damn right.
f) no matter what you say, your president is nowhere near as suave and calm as Chirac.
g) France hasn't caused any wars since...what...Napoleon? Where as you have...let's see Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, spring to mind...along with a lot of secret bombing in places such as Libya, Laos, and Syria to name a few...France is a peaceful nation, no matter what you say.
h) how much would you people hate French Muslims?
i) are babies never going to be called Claude, Pierre, Renard, or Marcell again?
j) name one American person who you can sincerely say was a better general than Napoleon.
k) this is more a question for people like Saladbar or Hollywood Hagan; how bad has anti-France gotten over there?
l) isn't a pacifist "country of love" better than one which causes numerous deaths and wars, in its own way? Maybe people in America are possibly better off in there than in France, but SERIOUSLY, France has not been responsible for many deaths since Napoleon...although the 95 nuclear testing was disgusting, America did its fair share as well. Also, how much freedom of speech does America have, really? I doubt you'll give me any convincing evidence...
m) and for a fun note: while you are making all these anti-French jokes, the rest of the world is making jokes about you. Just to point that out, not to say anything immediately "bad".

Thank-you, and think about it.

-Penguin

Anton, I applaud your articulation and deep thinking. Many valid points to ponder from across the oceans. You will probably be bashed to hell by many members of this board. I hope you are ready for it. There has been a lot of dissent against the war here in America. We do have freedom of speech, that I can guarantee. World politics and economics are probably the hardest things for the average peon to understand even a fraction of it. Its easier to just stand behind a flag and let that speak for you. Rather than address all your points, I'll sum it up by saying. There are more happy, warm, healthy, literate, religiously-free, people in a democracy than in a dictatorship. Keep on questioning. I hope you find some answers. I don't think they will be on this board. Peace.

Anton, you have a terribly warped sense of reality and international relations.

The France question does not come down to a state's pacifism, or inane jokes about the French, or the Statue of Liberty, or "Freedom Fries."

It comes down to economics. If you believe that France assumed the position it did because of a heightened moral clarity, you are sorely misguided. France is a modern society that enjoys the benefits of modernity. However, it CANNOT itself sustain these spoils. France does not have the internal mechanisms or resources, and the Iraqi regime, specifically regarding petroleum, served as a supplier and a source of limitless economic gain for French industry.

So don't try to tell me France is "peaceful"...if France had an oil pipeline coming from Siberia, do you really believe Chirac would have forsaken good relations with the United States? Because they are "peaceful"? Are you crazy, Anton, or stupid?

France not responsible for "many deaths" since Napoleon? No oppression? You have a lot to learn, Anton. One word: AFRICA. Colonialism. France held possessions in Africa until the second half of the twentieth century. Now shut up.

* Give me some evidence about "secret bombing" in Syria.

* Dwight Eisenhower, as one example, was on par with Bonaparte.

* Let other nations make jokes about the United States as they sip a Coca-Cola and bite into a Big Mac.

I spent the better part of last week arguing with one of the young posters about the war and the reasons for it. I'm still not convinced about all the reasons, but I don't think that affects my "anti-French" judgement. For that I have many reasons.

For your comments a&b, the statue is symbol and a gift, and really is irrelevent to any discussion of international politics. The flag? I wasn't aware that France, or the US had a legal claim to red, white, and blue. What about New Zealand? Netherlands, Norway. Again, an irrelevent discussion topic and one I hadn't heard until your post.

Item c is one I take issue with. The issue with France wasn't about getting their help, or even their support. I don't think anything the French could've added to the effort would have made anything go easier of smoother. Unless Napolean is around, going to France for military help is hardly viewed as necessary. It is about the threat of a veto in the UN Security Council that was the most irritating threat. France owes it's very seat on the Security Council to the United States - bought and paid for with thousands of lives in 2 World Wars, primarily the second. More than it's place on the council, it owes it's very existence. Germany ran over France like roadkill. Imagine the Oktoberfest celebrations that would be taking place today in Paris if we took the "peaceful" approach.

Items d & e are again, irrelevent issues since the French really have nothing the Americans want, so there really is no boycott or discrimination. No one really cares about "French" or "Freedom" fries, or about French imports. The wine is over-rated and nobody bought Puegeots or Renaults anyway.

f: I'm not even a Bush supporter, but give me a strong leader like him over the calm and suave Chirac any day. Robert Redford is calm and suave, but I don't endorse him as a leader.

g: Check the Vietnam debacle closely. The conflict in Vietnam began as a French issue when it was referred to as French Indochina. I know it's hard to believe, but France abandoned the area in turmoil and chaos.

h: what do French muslims have to do with anything?

i: I don't think there was a whole lot of demand for Claude, Pierre, Renard, or Marcell in the first place. Maybe as names for poodles, not kids.

j: I'd sent an American first team of Grant, Sherman, Pershing, Patton, and Lee against the accomplishments of Napolean. Anytime.

k: for saladbar and HH

L&M: I know no one has ever told me that I can't say anything I want, or what to say or think. I am free to form my own opinions, say what I think, do what I want. I'm sure the French people don't wish they lived in the US, and the US people aren't sorry they don't live in France. I'm happy here, and really couldn't care less about the opinions of other countries. As for the jokes, it's very easy to make jokes about the French and a lot of fun. Don't ignore the ability of the Americans to make fun of themselves, or criticize themselves. Check out the political cartoons, read Doonesbury, watch the Letterman/Leno bits. Comedy Central ran a series called "That's my Bush". If that's not evidence of freedom of speech, then what would qualify?

I echo Uzi. Lots to learn about history; e.g. the French were the ones who porked up Viet Nam before we decided to join the cluster F.

Nyah, that has to be one of the funniest goddamn things I have ever seen. Thank you.

I'm the wrong person to ask Anton. I live the the liberal mecca of the US. We still eat reduced-fat french fries (but have always avoided French wine).

I have no problem with the French, it is Chirac that has a potato chip up his ass.

--Saladshit ( yes I SAW that post!)

A lot to learn....yes of course I do. I've only had 9 years in school and have not read about all the history. I know little about Vietnam.

France, like almost any other country (including the US), has a corrupt government. Chirac is not exactly the most honest or moral president, what he did in '95 was appaling. But the truth is not in the government. In my previous post had all the points I could think of...and some of them very irrelevant to the big picture (fries, statue, flag, names), but my basis is that the US are just as corrupt as the French in their government. Why be anti-French? Anti-Chirac is absolutely fine, I'm anti-Bush, for example. But being anti-French is a discrimination, think of the Jews...no really, think of them.

Colonisation was a disgusting period in human history. Nearly all European countries took part in it, colonisation was responsible for thousands of deaths from the Americas, Africa, Asia, and the whole Pacific. I cannot think of a worse violation. You're right Uzto, I missed that one. France were probably the worst equal with England for colonisation, particularly Africa and the Pacific.

My point is, that hearing people say "France, what a waste of land! After this war we should nuke there dumb asses off the Earth" is a reminder of the huge superpower America holds and is abusing IMHO.

Be anti-France, but keep in mind that there are far more anti-Americans...and accept that. So before claiming you hate the French, remember a lot of people hate the Americans as well. Far more, in fact. Not that that really matters.

Uztopoke, I can give you no solid evidence of secret Syrian bombing, it was a rumour going around which is probably untrue.

Here it is; I have much to learn, yes. I already knew the French have done some fucking bad things, but in my opinion America is currently doing some bad things. Uztopoke, I need to learn a lot of things, but I will hold strong with my opinion.

-Penguin

PS: Saladbar, take no notice of Saladshit. For some reason that post was deleted...no idea why...it was just making fun of "tough guys". You were the target, Salad.

Anton,
Why are you worried about how the US feels about France? You don't live in either of these countries so it doesn't really concern you. It was not a 'gift'. The US built have of it, a French sculptor designed the frame. They displayed it in France for a while before handing it over to the US. It wasn't made solely for the purpose of a 'peace gift'. If it were a gift then WE wouldn't have spent OUR money on building it.

What do you mean, of course it was a gift! I partially support Anton here, frightening, isn't it? It was a gift, but no matter what it would still have cost us money. I don't really care about France's view on the war. But according to to figures, Iraq owes France a lot of money as with Russia, so obviously France would not have wanted war as then they get NO money. And I thought it over, and fuck the "We saved them in WW2" thing, because that was a different time, with different people, stop living in the past. So, I partially think France's view on the war is justified, but still think they would have benefited more if they did enter.

Nice one Vercetti! You're right.

ShortCake, the Statue of Liberty was a gift from the French for 100 years independence. Entirely French made. The only thing the US had to pay for was to make its base on that small island out of New York. The Statue of Liberty was designed by a French architect (the same one who did the Eiffel Tower), and built entirely. A GIFT.

Still, the past.

Oh and ShortCake, can you please read my post for once?

Thank-you,
-Penguin

A: I am not anti-French, so I would have no reason to want the Statue gone. Although I do not agree with France, I cannot fault them. After all, as many of my colleagues have said, Iraq was a source of $ for France. If we step out of our self-righteous shoes for a moment, we will understand France.

B. This is a silly question. I realize that A and B were questions that you created to get some uninformed anti-French people to admit thier lunacy, but it hasn't worked. I doubt it will. Who cares what thier colors are?

C. It doesn't have to agree with another country and we don't have to hate them for it. But this is real life, and when we send our soldiers to die, we would appreciate some fucking help. When some of our closest allies fail to provide the help, we are bitter. Thus, hatred is born, right or wrong.

D. I think they get the point. They see it for what it really is, a blatant insult. Regardless of the dietary value of fries, the fact that we would even bother to do that shows our distaste for them.


E. Our cuntry is in international symbol for freedom and equality. No doubt about it. Does that mean that all of us actually follow those principles? Fuck no. This is reality Anton. There are smart people and stupid people; good people and bad people; Democrats and Republicans. What I'm saying is that while we shouldn't discriminate against them, it will happen, undoubtedly. Does that make us "wrong"? Perhaps. But don't believe for one second that if NZ wanted to bomb Iraq and was opposed by the French would it be any different.

F. Our President is anything but suave. As a matter of fact, I think he is a complete fucking idiot. But, as in all politics, he is only allowed to do what Congress allows.

G. France has gone to war. They dumped Nam on us. And although it may be a peaceful country, it is a bit easier for them to remain that way than for us. With power comes responsibility. Because we are the most powerful nation on Earth, we have become a sort of international police. While I don't agree with it, I do realize that it must be done.

H. This question is really a low blow. You see, I would hate them very much, because that is who I am. I hate, and hate often. And I admit it. Now, my fellow countrymen are a bit different than me. As a nation, we do not hate Muslims. We embrace all peoples. The reason why we get this impression is because we are always patrolling the Middle East and punishing Muslim nations because the fucking animals cannot control themselves. We don't hate Muslims, they hate us. IMO, the 9/11 attacks were 100% the result of the US's continued support of Israel. Because we side with Jews, we are pulled into thier never ending war with Muslims.

I. I hope not. Those names belong only to the French and homosexual. Claude? I hope no child has to go through grade school with that name.

J. I can't. Napoleon was a great General, no doubt about it. Now, what does that have to do with anything. I suppose this is another one of your questions aimed at discrediting some of our fanatically patriotic friends on here. Either way, is France supposed to deserve respect because of what Napoleon did on the battle fields?

K. I don't know why this is geared at me. Perhaps because you know that I am not anti-France? At any rate, it is what I would call moderate. In fact, one of my Professors today took it upon himself to crack on the French any time he could in lecture. I thought it very unprofessional, but that is niether here nor there. It could be much worse. I feel that the anti-French sentiment is mostly jokes poking fun at them. It could be a full scale demand for war.

L. No doubt a peaceful country is better than a war mongering one. Now, who the fuck are you talking about? France is peaceful, but do you honestly think that has anything to do with love? You are living in a fantasy world, kid. As I've said many times above, you need to realize that we are in a real world here, where shit gets ugly. France is peaceful because thier interests have not been threatened. Our have been, and will continue to be until our eventual fall. It is the way of life.

M. While I do not agree with this particular war, I must say that the rest of the world can go fuck themselves. Who will they turn to when someone tries to invade them? Us. That being said, I think you are wrong. We are not the only country that despises France. And your logic is also questionable. If I were to make fun of you, does that mean that you could not make fun of me? Who cares what the rest of the world says, if we believe what we are doing is right, fuck them all.

a. No
b. No
c. Yeah, veto
d. I don't think anyone thinks that
e. Yeah, veto
f. I hope none of our presidents are ever compared to Chirac
g. Now you know
h. Not much at all
i. We have no idea
j. Washington, Ike, Mac, Lee

l. A lot (Convincing, isn't it)
m. I find it interesting you know how 100+ countries think of the US

How many international wars has the U.S. caused?

Well since Anton started with the entire France thing, I thought i'd post a couple of links...

http://www.clubforgrowth.org/video/strong-allies-voinovich.mpeg

http://www.clubforgrowth.org/video/strong-allies-voinovich.ram

I saw these on the Daily Show a while ago......ones an MPEG file and the other's a Real Media file

enjoy!

a)No, we should not tear down the Statue of Liberty just because the French people do not currently support the U.S.
b)The French have no reason to change the color of their flag, and we have no reason to change ours.
c)The French were supposed to be one of the most important allies of the United States. We have helped them through many probelms they have faced, from helping break the stalemate in WWI, to liberating them in WWII, and rebuilding their country after WWII. Now, when we require their help in the war against terror, they turn us down and yell about how we are war mongering imperialists. I guess the United States friendship with the French only works one way .
d)Maybe French and/or Freedom Fries cause heart attacks, but they sure do taste good .
e)We are NOT discrimnating agains the French. Just because we protest what they do to us, does not mean we are racist. You want to know what the only contradiction here is? It's the fact that people like you (and others) can say in the same sentence that the French have a right to say whatever they want about the U.S., and it is considered their right to free speech, but when we try and say what we think of another country, we're labeled as racists and bigots.
f)Chirac may be suave and calm (at least in your opinion), but he is also a first class liar. He says that the U.S. is only fighting for it's own interests such as oil, when he is the one trying to keep a brutal dictator like Saddam in power because he gets free oil from him.
g)Sometimes, a war is a better alternative than standing by and doing nothing except "negotiating", just like the French "negotiated" themselves into WWII and being conquered by the Nazis.
h)I will say this once again, the people of the U.S. (with some exceptions, as in every country), are NOT racist. We do not hate muslims, and we do not hate the French people. We do hate being stabbed in the back by what is supposed to be our closest ally, but I never knew that protesting the actions of another country or race was racist.
i)Babies can be named whatever the parents want them to be named.
j)hmm, George S. Patton, William T. Sherman, Robert E. Lee, those spring to mind. Anyways, Napolean was Corsican .
k)hahaha, more a question for people that agree with your political views.
l)You could say that the French have caused pleny of deaths and wars too. They are NOT a peace loving people. They have been involved in Vietnam, Algeria and other parts of Africa, and other countries as well.
m)Other countries can make jokes about whatever they want, and I won't have a problem with it.

History smistory. No one cares about the French involvement in Vietnam, that the French have supported the Iraqi regime financially, militarily, and politically MUCH LESS that that is not much different than Rummy's et al, 1980s chumminess when Sadaam was considered cool. French jokes/boycotts exist simply because it's the flavor of the friggin' moment and NOT because they selfishly supported Iraq, but simply because they had the gall to oppose the U.S. I have become cynical enought to accept that international politics are pretty silly in general. Schoolyard tactics on an international level.

French boycotts hurt U.S. markets too and seem to only serve in making the U.S. look ridiculous in the eyes of the rest of the world ("freedom fries", dismantle Statue of Liberty threats? come on..). Especially since many of the participants in the "boycott" seem unclear on the concept.

EDIT: Anton, I thought the Saladshit, and the mean names you made of everyone's monikers, stuff was very funny. Brave and funny.

Of course you are right. I don't think anyone was citing Nam as the reason we hate the French, but it was brought up in opposition to Anton's notion that France is "peaceful". As you said, our distaste for them comes from the fact that they oppose us, nothing more.

And you are spot on when it comes to world politics. All of these world leaders are nothing short of schoolyard bullies.

For the record, my ruminations/thoughts are exactly that. Thoughts. I am not declaring anything, simple considering.

A point though, don't call others stupid and foolish for being anti-American when you yourself are anti-another country (in this case; France.)

But yeah, thoughts. A lot to learn? Hell yes. But that's what ruminations are, right? Thoughts.

-Penguin

I still find it hard to believe that Anton is a 13 year old. So much better spoken and aware of the ways of the world than others considerably older. I may not agree with all he says, but I enjoy reading what he has to say.

By the way, it sounds like the fries in New Zealand are not so good. Maybe the ones in the US are better - we love our "pommes-frite".

Well, I speak the truth when I speak of my age...if my picture is any bearing to you, then yeah. Thank-you for the compliment.

Our fries are just fine...although we have got a very small amount of people eating McDonalds after three rats heads were found in some burgers and a dead, rotting kitten found in a McPie, all in the same week. Now McDonalds is unpopular. And there are always protests outside McDonalds, and it is the fashion to have bags or shoes that say "McGarbage" or "McDeath". McDonalds....uhh...no. Our other fries are nice; mostly cafe fries or fish and chips...much nicer than the potato-less McDonalds fries.

-Penguin