Also I don't believe it was in Fredos intentions to become Don. I feel Roth misled him into thinking that if Michael was knocked out then he being Fredo and Roth could work together for years just as Roth and Vito had. Since its pretty apparent Fredo is trying to become like his father in the second one. I point out the conversation in Cuba between Michael and Fredo and the mustache Fredo has on in the beginning of GF II.

I know where your going with this comment apple and as for that being a hole in my theory. Well Tom wasn't involved in that part of the Family business in the second one. So I doubt you can count on him as a reliable source of information. Even if you do you might realize that Tom thought of Michael as becoming to paranoid and Tom wasn't happy where the Family was going. Remeber the conversation between Tom and Frank in jail "it once was." I think Tom was giving the information to try and see if it would stop Michael from killing Fredo he knew Michaels intentions and thought it wasn't a good idea. Plus Tom was never good with dealing with a person getting killed close to the Family. Remeber the look on his face as he sees Tessio getting put into the car.

This conversation took place at the hotel when Mike returned and wanted and update from Tom. He asked for a towel from Neri and then asked he and Rocco to step outside. Mike asked Tom about what he got Anthony for Christmas, Fredo and the baby.

You may want to double-check that.

I remembered hearing no such thing from Tom's mouth but just to be sure, I checked the GFII transcript which can be found in The Godfather Trilogy link below.

Here's the dialogue:

CUT TO: The inside of a hotel room. ROCCO stands in front of the door as MICHAEL opens it. MICHAEL shakes his hand and pats him on the back. NERI shuts the door as MICHAEL rubs his eyes.

MICHAEL: Al - could you get me a wet towel?
KAY know I'm back? [TOM nods.] What about my boy -did you get him something for Christmas?

TOM: I took care of it.

MICHAEL: What was it so I'll know?

TOM: Well, it was a little car with an electric motor that he can ride in - it's nice.

[MICHAEL pours himself a glass of water. NERI comes to him with a wet towel.]

MICHAEL: Thank you, Al. Fellas, could you step outside for a minute?

[ROCCO opens the door and steps outside, NERI follows.]

Where's my brother?

TOM: ROTH got out on a private boat, he's in a hospital in Miami. Had a stroke but he recovered okay. Your BODYGUARD's dead.

MICHAEL: I asked about FREDO.

TOM: I think he got out - he must be somewhere in New York.

MICHAEL: Alright - I want you to get in touch with him - I know he's scared - tell him everything's all right. Tell him I know ROTH misled him - and he didn't know they were planing to kill me.

[TOM nods.]

Um -- they can come in now.

TOM: Uh - there is something else.

What follows is where Tom informs Mike of Kay's miscarriage.

There is NO discussion from Tom as to what Roth had led Fredo to believe would happen to Michael.

Apple

So what are you trying to prove with this apple? I see your up to your normal ways of not answering anyone when they present something to you.

I've answered you several times, DFTC. In detail.

You are apparently too (fill-in-the blanks) to figure that out.

Apple

I don't understand you apple at all. You make no real sense to me. I'm not even sure you know how to have a debate. Sorry for thinking outside the box and bringing some new theories to the table. Instead of thinking about it you just dismiss it immediatly.

I thought I brought up some real good ideas behind Fredo and his thinking and you don't even consider them. You choose to insult people.

Yes you are correct the transcript on this site states Tom said nothing. However being new and viewing several posts to get the gist of what's going on several people refer not to just the movie but to the book or versions of the GF scripts.
What I am referencing is from a GFII script, here is the link:
http://www.allmoviescripts.com/scripts/17584365683f3d9aa7445d6.html

Finally I started this post to hopefully find out some answers or gather other peoples insight not to prove one and another wrong with their opinions.

What I did was challenged your theories.

If you're going to be insulted by that, then you may as well go find a Board where everyone will agree with you and praise you and tell you that you are right, thank goodness you came along where have you been all our lives.

Better yet, if you can't handle debate of any kind, go & start your own board. If it'll help to boost you ego I promise not to become a member.

Apple

Thanks, tuneturner. I figured you had gotten that line from some draft version of the GFII script. In my opinion, if a line wasn't spoken in the film(s) then it isn't a factor. But that's just my opinion...others like to bring them into play.

I'm glad you started the thread to gain insight and opinions. The quesion you happened to begin with which was who killed the would-be assassins is one that has been discussed many times and as you can see, no one has ever come up with an answer that satisfies everyone. Some think it was Fredo, some don't. So if it wasn't Fredo, then who was it? That's where the questions begin and the possibilities are endless.

Sadly, the same question that can lead to interesting threads also can lead to nasty brawls, when people think they've come up with the definitive answer and cannot handle their ideas being challenged. Which of course is what healthy debate is all about!!

Best,
Apple

When the assassins bodies are located in the ditch, at least one of them clearly (at least to me) has a red line across his throat, indicating that he either had his throat cut, or was garroted. Plus, there were no gunshots that anyone heard

That's exactly Michael's point when he says to Tom:

"Unless I'm very wrong, they're dead already. Killed by someone close to us. Inside.

"THOSE" guys didn't have to flee.

Quote

Since there were two of them, I don't see how Fredo could have possibly been responsible.

That, I agree with.

To those who think it was Fredo:

Let's say Fredo didn't know it was gonna be a hit, but he killed the guys to cover his ass. So he runs out into the darkness in his bathrobe and pajamas and finds the two of them before the dozen or so guys and dogs running around the property looking for the same two guys, gets the drop on them, and kills them both. What a stroke of good fortune.

And as far as covering his ass goes, these were hired hitmen. It's doubtful that they would have been aware of the scope of the plot and that Fredo was the inside man. Roth, or whoever hired them acting for Roth, would have no logical reason to tell them of Fredo's involvement. So I don't think that Fredo had anything to fear from them if they were captured alive.

I think the ultimate proof, BTW, that Fredo didn't know it was gonna be a hit, was his line to Johnny Ola in the late night telephone call:

"You guys lied to me"

Why would he say that to Johnny Ola if Johnny hadn't lied to him? What else was there that Johnny could have lied about

Apple you never cease to suprise me I can't believe you said all of that, your pathetic. Now back to the topic which is what we are here for.
For the reasons I believe Fredo knew it was going to be a hit. Who left the drapes open? I believe it was Fredo no one else inside the Family was ever implicated in the plot other than Fredo. I also think it is highly unlikely that the shooters themselves would come in and do so. Even I think apple can agree with that. However I won't be suprised if she doesn't.
Also I believe Fredo was mis-led by Roth but in a different way. I feel Roth mis-led him in believing what would happen after Michael was killed. I think Fredo was under the impression that he and Roth would be on the basis of say Roth and Vito in the old days. I back this up by Fredo trying to be like his father in the second one. Sporting the mustache that Vito had in GF I as well as saying to Michael in Cuba "For once be more like pop."
I think that the shooters themselves were given the grounds of the estate by Fredo himself. I think there was pre-arrainged meeting point that they were suppose to go. When they got there though they were murdered not escaping which was probably the plan.
Also i'm not sure I want to make that clear to apple esp. I'm not sure but my interpetation of the look given by Michael to Fredo after "I swear I didn't know it was gonna be a hit" was more like "do I look that stupid to you?" thats just my interpretation of it. Its not the truth and I don't claim it to be. I just think its interesting b/c it doesn't leave any holes. If you find one bring it up b/c I would like to hear it.

WOW, plaw...you've got better eyes than me! I never really got a good look at the bodies, will have to check that out at next viewing.

I'll agree that throat-cutting is more of a possibility than garroting. This would have to be done quickly, and there would be too much struggling involved in a garroting.

GREAT catch, I had forgotten about Fredo's phone conversation w/ Johnny Ola!!

Apple

I think theres a flaw in my theory. Fredo does say "you guys lied to me" I can't think of anything else they would have lied about to Fredo other than it wasn't going to be a hit. I'll try and think of something. Good point plaw

Leave the drapes open? I agree why would the shooters need to do it, that wasn't their job. We have to take into account the possibility that there were more people involved here than simply the shooters.

Possibly. All Fredo really needed to hear though, was that there would be something in it for him. Roth & Ola knew they would not need to promise anything specific. Fredo would probably have had his own delusions of granduer as to exactly what that 'something' was.

I disagree that Fredo gave them the grounds of the estate. To do that, Fredo would have to have been in on some foul play. And as we all know, he did not realize this was going to be a hit. So for what other reason would he be coerced into turning over the ground plans?

You can certainly interpret it that way if you like. However at this point Fredo was far to frightened to even begin to try to lie to Michael. After all, Michael does say to Fredo at one point..."And you believed that story?"

So I believe the look was one of amazement that even weak, stupid Fredo had fallen for such a line.

Best,
Apple

I bet you will !!!



Apple

Thinking with Apple in the boat house when Mike was questioning Fredo, Fredo says that Johnny Ola approached him to help with the deal between Mike & Roth. Fredo says that if helped move things along there would be a piece of something in it for him. Now before you flame me I am loosely quoting here.

But this leads me to believe Fredo thought he was getting the best of both worlds but mostly was helping Mike out. Plus Fredo was looking for respect from Mike and he thought making this deal would give him that respect from his younger brother that he always sought. He wasn't looking for respect from anyone else, just Mike.

Would you expect anything less from a Irish guy from Boston living with a 86 year old curse on his baseball team.

I agree. Hagen's line in the un-used script about Fredo believing it was going to be a kidnapping makes sense to me, even if it asn't in the actual film Fredo's exact words were "You lied to me". Since the hit was unsucessful, he would have no way of knowing whether he was lied to or not about a future relationship between him and Roth. What he was lied to about was what the goal of the plot was.
If you mean that Fredo gave them a map of the grounds, which showed them an access and egress points, sure. But again, if Fredo didn't know it was gonna be a hit, which I think his comment to Johnny Ola proves, then it could not have been part of the plan for him to kill the hitmen.

I mean, if you were Roth, as smart as he was, would you have trusted the bumbling and stupid Fredo to murder two professional assasins?

So, for me, that brings us back to the question of who did kill the hitmen?

Something else just occured to me as well:
If it wasn't Fredo, and Fredo didn't know it was gonna be a hit, that means there had to be someone else in on the plot, on the inside, working independently of Fredo.

Trying to figure out the answer to this one is always fun, but I go back to my original statement. It's just a giant hole in the plot.

"It was Barzini all along!"
"Tataglia never could have outfought Fredo!"

I think it was Anthony Coleone on the advice from his fav. uncle Fredo to leave the drapes open. Then he drew that painting to distract his father for the shooting. Motive? well he knew after his father he was the smartest Corleone left and we know he wanted to help Michael when he asked to go with him in the scene where the two are talking in the bedroom. This is totally for a laugh but it does make a small case.

It was Anthony, he was getting back at Michael because he secretly blamed him for his fathers death in the tomato garden with the squirt gun.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I beleive it's elluded to early in the movie, before Michael visits Roth in Florida. He says that the hitmen are dead and now it's only a matter of time to find out who it was on the inside that killed them or who the true trader was.

To me, there are 2 opions
1. Fredo DID know there was gonna be a hit. He opened up the drapes. He let one of his men kill the hitmen.
(Maybe: After the hit the hitmen should come to Fredo's house, and Fredo would give them an alibi(don't know if it's the good word. If they come looking for the jitmen, he would protect them and say that they were in his house during the hit). But now they know Micheal survived he was to scared and had an other men (also in his house) kill the hitmen).
2. Fredo did NOT know there was gonna be a hit. A few soldiers of the corleone-family killed the hitmen. They also opened the drapes. The soldiers betrayed the family, they became loyal to Roth.

I believe in the 2nd. Cause i think Fredo really didn't that there was gonna be a hit

Fredo may or may not have known it would be a hit, but he sure as hell opened the drapes. Do you think Mike would let just anyone in his house?And if it wasnt Fredo who opened the drapes, he would have no part in the hit and Johnny Ola would have no reason to call him in the middle of the night and say the things he did to Fredo.

My theory is that it was Fredo's part of the plan to open the drapes in Mike's room then meet with Johnny Ola or one of his men and the assassins inside the compound. Then the assassins attempted their hit on Mike and afterwards met with Johnny of whoever who then killed them both.

maybe someone opened the drapes with no intention to make it easyer for the gunmen. Maybe Kay or someone else...

It wasn't Kay. She asked Michael why the drapes were open just before the shooting.

The drapes were opened on purpose.

Though i don't credit Fredo with much bravery or
cunning, I think he killed the gunmen when the attempt on Micheal's life failed, for 2 reasons:
he truly did not know it was going to be a hit, and to keep them silent.
And I must humbly agree with DFTC, Apple, we're ALL entitled to state our opinions here without fear of being ridiculed. This is supposed to be a forum for civil debate among Godfather fans. (Just a gentle suggestion- don't come after me now)