In GFII an attempt is made on Michael as he nears the window of his bedroom. After escaping unharmed the grounds are lit with flood lights and combed by numerous guards and dogs. Michael meets with Tom Hagen and tells him that if he is right the assassins are already dead. Soon we find the would be killers dead on the property.
So I assume Michael thinks the traitor is still on the property, if not who kills the assassins and is never found?

Welcome tuneturner.

You may be interested to know that this was the first question I ever asked here.

21 months and 3500 posts later, I'm still waiting for an answer that makes sense. To me, it's a major plot hole.

To you plawrence? I think for this whole community. Nobody knows who killed them. Logic is Fredo but he's to weak. So...

Here we go.....

Logic is anyone but Fredo. How is he going to kill two professional hitmen? Forget the "weak" part, and let's assume he was strong enough to do it. It would have required some degree of planning, so if you believed him when he said "I didn't know it was gonna be a hit" (as I do), then that excludes him as a possibility.

Anyway, we do have a lot of new members since the last time this question was raised. Maybe a new theory will emerge.

In my opinion you hit the nail on the right spot. Fredo said: "I didn't no it was gonna be a hit Mike." Thus...that's why he killed them. He heard the shots and immediately knew what the heck was going on. To save his own ass there was one option, kill the hitmen.

Thanks for all the replies and the insight to the unanswered question.
M.M. Floors, I like your rational about Fredo figuring out what went wrong and to cover his ass he plugged the assassins but think of this:
What happened to Fredo when his father was shot? He couldn't get his gun out and when he did he fumbled it to the ground. Granted the situation but Fredo was no buttman. Secondly Fredo's wife freaked out when she heard the shots and Fredo is seen running after her to calm her down and get her back in the house.
I am stumped.

That's an interesting theory, MMF, and one that I don't think has been suggested before.

The problem, though, is that Fredo was just too weak, IMO, to take on and kill two professional hitmen. With a gun, maybe, but I believe they were garroted.

The best theory, as bad as it is I believe, is that it was Rocco, although there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to suggest that he was in any way dis-loyal to Michael. But perhaps, as Turnbull has suggested in the past, he was jealous over Neri's ascension and his own diminshed role in the family, although I'm not sure what he would have accomplished by helping to get Michael killed.

Rocco as the traitor could also account for his willingness to take on the Roth suicide mission. He realizes the eror of his ways, and seeks some form of redemption.

But the bottom line for me is that if it were Rocco, Mike would have figured that out and Rocco would have been long gone.

That's what makes the whole question a major plot hole. The only one identified as a traitor is Fredo, but his physical weakness, in my mind, makes it impossible to believe that he killed two professional hitmen.

I am as baffled by the killing of the gunmen as anyone.
BTW, plawrence: I believe that Neri pushed past Rocco in the family hierarchy. I didn't suggest that Rocco was jealous. I did mention another poster's comment that he (the poster) had seen an earlier script treatment in which Rocco volunteered for the one-way mission at the end out of guilt because he was involved in the Tahoe attack.

...euhhh yeah. But what does this have to do with the person who killed the hitmen, because that was the question. Rocco is jealous (or whatever), the hitmen come and shoot, and then Rocco kills them..? That doesn't make sense either.

Although I fully agree with the fact that Fredo is to weak, but for me that's the only option and the one I believe in.

I never really though about this one too in depth, because of the lighting in that scene, I just recently discovered who some of those guys actually were.Right after that scene,Mike is talking to Tom and he says, "Fredo and all his men" so maybe some of Fredo's men took care of the shooters, and then they were taken care of later, but that sounds a lot like a JFK theorey.Also I find it hard to believe that anyone could actually bring themselves to take orders from Fredo.Good question.

Rocco is no traitor. Fredo didn't kill the gunmen. Johnny Ola's men had to be on the property that night to silence them.

Johnny Ola's men had to be on the property that night to silence them.

Do tell us how Johnny's men got off after all that shooting at Michael's room and then the killing of the shooters minutes later without being seen? If they could get away why not take their men who tried the hit with them and leave no clues at all?

I never gave much thought to how the men who shot at Michael died. I assumed that the two were led to a specific point by Fredo where they could escape. When they realized what had happend the two commited suicide. If you know your history, it is widely known that Roman soliders would commit suicide before being captured by the enemy. So maybe that has something to do with it.

Escape from what, since Fredo had no idea it was going to be a 'hit'.

Except what was it that they would've realized had happened? Michael Corleone wasn't dead?

Regardless of what the Romans did, I think it's most likely these were shot while trying to escape. A map of the grounds had probably been laid out for them long beforehand, this was to be a professional job so they would need no one to 'lead them' anywhere immediately after the shooting. They had an escape route planned, and were gunned down before they could get out.

The neverending mystery that remains is exactly WHO shot them....possibly Fredo (which I've personally never believed), possibly one of the many compound guards who may have shot them on sight prior to getting word of Michael's orders to bring them in alive.

Apple

Weren't they garroted?
Weren't they garroted? But if they were shot in the circumstances you describe, wouldn't the guard just say "Listen...I didn't know you wanted them alive...They came at me with guns...What was I supposed to do? I had to kill them.

plawrence...

MAYBE they were garroted, could be. Though if there was ever any reference to that in the film it's just another thing that's gotten past me over all these years.

Though if they were, then my question would be why would there be two guys waiting to garrot two other guys who were hired to assasinate Don Corleone. And where would THOSE two guys flee to, now that the compound would most certainly be secured, locked down and almost impossible to escape from?

And also that would squish the theory that Fredo may have killed them to cover his own sorry ass. I can barely picture him shooting these guys, let alone garroting them which of course he'd have to do one at a time and then dump the bodies into a drainage ditch...just picturing this makes me

Apple

This is a good question to pose to FFC or our don J Geoff, anyone know what he has said about it?

However as others have said it was probably a hole in the films plot.

I'm a little upset with you apple. You don't even think about what other people are saying. How do you know they knew the grounds very well? They were from New York remember? Also how do you know they didn't think things had gone wrong? Maybe they were told to go to that spot where someone would be waiting for them. When they got there they realized that there was no one there and in the panic of the security closeing down on them they killed themselves. As for you pointing out Fredo saying he didn't know it was gonna be a hit. I've always thought that to be total bullshit. How can you explain Michaels face after this? He's holding his head then looks to Fredo with a look of "do I look that dumb?" And Apple how do you explain the drapes being open? Did Fredo open them thinking two guy were gonna stand outside Michaels room with signs saying "We need to talk about a deal?" c'mon now true Fredo was an idiot but he was a Corleone and even a weak and stupid Corleone can still lie. He didn't fool Michael but apparently he fooled Apple.

When Mike told Tom that he was in charge, he said that he would be in charge of Fredo and his men..,

"I'm gonna leave here tonight. I give you complete power, TOM -- over FREDO and his men, ROCCO, NERI, everyone"

My theory is that Fredo used his men to botched everything up.........,

I suppose this will always be one of those unanswered questions, but Fredo killing the assassins?? IMHO no way! This is the same guy who cried like a baby when Vito got shot. He just didn't have it in him. Like PLaw, I too always believed Fredo sincerely didn't know it was gonna be a "hit".


TIS

You appear to be looking at this in extremely simplistic terms. We know these gunmen were sent in by Hyman Roth. For them to even get access to the compound, this attempted hit on Michael would have to have been planned and thought out well ahead of time. Whether they were from NY or Timbuck Two, you bet they would have to know the grounds well. Let's remember that the only reason the assasination didn't succeed is that Michael dropped to the ground a second before the shots began. Until he appeared outside, the hitmen would have no way of knowing he was still alive and they had failed. Even by the time he DID make it outside to demand that Rocco take them alive, I would guess they were already attempting a getaway, not standing around somewhere to see if they'd succeeded.

Well, I'll let you debate that with others, as MOST do agree that Fredo really didn't realize it was going to be a hit. As for that 'look' Michael gives Fredo in the boathouse, I always took it more for a look of disgust, as in 'I can't believe even YOU were dumb enough to fall for al this'.


Nobody can explain it. It's another mystery in the film that's been pondered and discussed for years, and nobody's yet come up with a definitive answer.

On the contrary, DFTC, It's quickly becoming apparent that the entire movie has YOU fooled

Best,
Apple

See I don't agree with you there, I think it has fooled you. My explanation has left nothing uncovered. Yes maybe they did know the grounds but maybe like I said someone was suppose to meet them there. Your theory of Fredo knowing nothing leaves lots of holes. Yes maybe Fredo was weak and stupid but he was an older brother. As an older brother I think Fredo was jealous like he said he felt stepped over. How do you really know what Michael was thinking when he gave that look you don't. So why don't you take into consideration what i'm saying. Fredo knew the whole time what was going on and when he knew Michael had found out about him being the one involved he played the stupid card. Michael knowing his brother better than anyone saw right through it. Thats why ultimatly I feel Michael had Fredo killed b/c he was in on Michael being killed. Had it been just a misunderstanding and Fredo had been mis-led then I tend to believe Michael might not have killed him. However Fredo tried to have him killed and thats that.

TOM
If we catch these guys do you think we'll be able to find out who's backing them?

MICHAEL
That's not the catch -- unless I'm very wrong, they're dead already. They're killed by somebody close to us -- inside. Very, very scared they botched it.

TOM
What about your people ROCCO and NERI? You don't think that they had something to do with this.

MICHAEL
You see -- all our people are business men, their loyalty is based on that. Now, one thing that I learned from Pop was to try to think as people around you think. Now on that basis, anything's possible.

CUT TO: Outside, DEANNA screams
DEANNA
Right out my window! I want to get out of here! They're lying there dead!

CUT TO: BUTTONMEN running to the drain.

BUTTONMAN
Over here there's two of them. Looks like they were hired out of New York, I don't recognize them. We won't get anything out of them now.

MICHAEL
Fish 'em out.

[Two BUTTONMEN fish out the bodies]
TOM
Alright, get rid of the bodies.

ROCCO
Where's Mike?

TOM
ROCCO.

[TOM walks off.]
CUT TO: MICHAEL walks into ANTHONY's room.

The answers are right there in the script. Michael states that it is a inside job someone close who got scared when the job was botched. Michael shows that he thinks just like his old man and the suspects are mainly Rocco or Neri.
Deanna gives the final clue with her line
"Right out my window! I want to get out of here! They're lying there dead!".

Now there is no refrence to how they died but they are dead. Fredo may be weak & dumb but I am sure he rose to the ocasion to cover his ass and kill them both.

The phone call to Fredo from Johnny Ola in a later scene confirms Fredo as the inside man.
That is the "No Luke I am Your Father" twist to the movie.

And how do YOU know? Obviously, you don't.

Actually, I have been taking EVERYTHING you say into consideration...and have to say it's been quite an entertaining couple of days!!

That's where you're flat out wrong. Whether it was a 'misunderstanding' on Fredo's part (and you're putting that pretty kindly), or whether Fredo had deliberately set Michael up to be murdered (which of course we all know he didn't do)...Michael would've ultimately had him killed either way.

Apple

the thing is here apple you don't know either what Michael was thinking. However in my theory nothing is left un covered like in your theory, plain and simple. Your theory leaves questions like, who killed them, who left the drapes open, my doesn't.

MICHAEL
I want you to reach Fredo. I know
he's scared, but have one of our
people reach him. Assure him that
there will be no reprisals. Tell
him that I know Roth misled him.

HAGEN
My information is that Fredo
thought it was a kidnapping. Roth
assured him nothing would happen to
you.

So if Fredo thought it was a kidnapping why would he have complied with opening the drapes? Additionally who were Fredo's men? I've never seen them and would assume at that point in the saga, probably not muscle or button men. I would assume they were more businessmen like Mike said running the casino's, chicken ranches, etc.

Im sure Fredo didnt intend to have Mike killed. Do you think he thought that would make him the Don by default? If so, maybe. But I dont think that was Fredo's thinking. Anyway, this is only a movie.

DFTC...those questions you mention have NEVER been answered, by anyone. They've been pondered, discussed and debated and nobody's come up with a satisfactory solution.

To say that your 'theory' doesn't leave these questions 'open' that it leaves 'nothing uncovered' is frankly quite absurd. Because it implies that after all these years, YOU are the one who has come along and solved the mystery and we can all move on. But then if somebody pokes holes in your brilliant 'theories' and brings up other circumstances or conversations that directly contradict them, or if your 'theories' bring up even further questions...you continue to whine.

Keep whining, when you come up with a theory that even begins to make sense, I'll let you know.

Apple

Ok apple, whatever you say. I'm just bringing up my theory just as I have before. Now listen carefully very carefully b/c for some reason it has failed you in the past. Bring up some holes in my theory and I will further my reasons to support my theory. Now did you get that all at once honey? if not read it again. Also i'm not pretending to be the "all knowing" guy who has solved the mystery. I'm simply stating my opinion. Your problem is when someone brings up there point of view you immediatly shut it down if its opposed to you. Your very narrow minded you know that.

Can someone let me know exactly where in the film Tom speaks these words?