post them, BTW, lets take this argument to the chat like Wise Ferro sugested. seriously, I am going.

Let me go find some pictures from when I was little and I'll scan them so you all can see how dark I was.

I'll go too.

OS -- I'm arrogant? Why, because I prove you wrong? Please. I believe in the same God that Catholics believe in -- don't try to act smart and tell me who I worship. I can believe in a religioin, but DISAGREE with certain parts and aspects and have my OWN belief; just like God said we could -- FREE WILL.

What did you say that is stupid? All your fucking posts. You compare a homosexual to a murderer, then say it's exaggerated? EXACTLY!!! You can't get your point across or be right, which you aren't, unless you EXAGGERATE. Think of some more fitting examples. You make me want to vomit.

I haven't shown anything that the Catholic religion shows? I believe in God, I obey him, I use my free will, I pray... I just don't go by every fucking thing he says. I can believe in what I want, and I believe in him, but disagree with some things he says. Comprehend what I say before TRYING to look smart.

DV -- EXACTLY. I don't agree with homosexuality, meaning I am not homosexual. But I respect them. But, you still say what they are doing is wrong, when there is no right or wrong because it's not something they can choose.

ShortCake -- So I'm an idiot? Why? Because YOU contradicted yourself? You AGREED WITH ME that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality, and that shit that the Bible says about it being a sin was bullshit. Then you come back and say the complete OPPOSITE; which you still haven't explained, and say it's SICK when you yelled at Vercetti for saying it before. And I'm an idiot? Sorry, but I'm not. And I believe in free speech to ANYONE. You say I shout "slander" and tell people they're "horribly wrong" when they disagree? I take that as an insult, since I never have. Anyone can believe in whatever they want. But when someone shuns something I believe in, you bet your fucking ass I'm gonna stick up for it. Which is FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

And so far, NO, you haven't shown any proof except contradicted yourself. Sorry to be harsh, but when push comes to shove...

ShortCake;

Italian = European.
European= Ethnically white.

Olive skin= Different shade of "white" skin.

Saying someone's from some place gives no clue to their ethnicity.. Specially in Latin countries where there's much intermarriage.

This is off topic, but...

Hey G - I have, many times during my life. And always wondered if that was true. I mean, if a person lives 65 years, 90 years, or 90 seconds, is that really enough time for us to demonstrate ourselves? Can such a tiny amount of time (out of eternity) be used to judge us, and be rewarded or punished for eternity? To me, that's like getting up to the plate in baseball, and you're only thrown one pitch, and if you miss it, you're going to hell, and if you get a base hit, you're going to heaven. On one pitch.

I believe in reincarnation, and believe that a soul has many opportunities throughout many lifetimes to learn from previous mistakes. I know this isn't taugh in Christianity, but I've heard that it used to be part of the belief (and that they've even found text on it in the vatican), but regardless, I believe it. It surely makes more sense to me.

A murderer is this life, may have someone close to him murdered in the next, which would be a punishment and also a learning experience. For the soul, not the person.

A good person in a previous life may have a really good next life.

Why the heck not? Sure makes more sense then a fetus who's died at birth being judged without having lived a lifetime.

But don't confuse this with the bullshit "I was Napolean" crap. Everyone seems to believe they were someone famous in a past life. Maybe a handful have, but c'mon, most people weren't.

Just more rambling b.s. to consider... and of course, off topic.

ShortCake, I'm still dying to hear your opinions on your sins...the one who brags about sex with her boyfriend...yes, you haven't answered it.

Listen, I want you to look back over history really seriously and think about what religion has done to us. Look at the Crusades, look at the Spanish Inquistions, look at the arguments, what was religion intended for? Thing is, and it's simple, is that homosexuality is natural. A completely natural, harmless thing. Homosexuals seem to be very kind people, and rarely do much harm, not compared to your religion, Scake, which has been harming the homosexuals and countless others for thousands of years. Your disgusting hate is what is causing all this, your condemnation of the homosexual people is what's causing deaths, suffering, of so many. It's true. It's not freedom of speech, and free will stuff is bullshit. It is what I like to call LIFE. Life...what is it? No idea...its purpose...unknown...but homosexuality is no kind of jokingly repairable bullshit, it's no disease, it's a way of life which all animals, even plants, have; to hate these people and condemn them in the name of the Lord is a disgrace on your Lord. Are they not people? Have they no right to just be who they are without assholes like you telling them that what they are doing is "wrong" and "work of Satan"? I know what you're thinking.

And why shout at me? I can damn well call you everything under the biological Sun if I want, I certainly have experience of your mind-numbing ignorance, but why get into that, I can tell what kind of a hateful, loathesome person you are; condemning people for being themselves. It's serious ShortCake, you are being as bad as any old bastard who hates people. Hate...I'm no hippy but there's a fucking lot of hate in the world. It's soon going to lead us to our downfall. I am an atheist, but religion intrigues me - I certainly don't dismiss it like you have chosen to dismiss homosexuals over a book. I am lucky to see religion from the outside, and see that you're a prime example of what it does to people and how it affects others.

Holocausts. Pain. Death. Serious fucking words and what you're doing is a serious fucking discrimination.

Please ShortCake can you think. Thinking is so important...use your own head, not others, surely you have something in there. It pains me, it really pains me to see what you people can do. It is really painful.

Enough said. I said a lot there and you should seriously consider it. I'm not dismissing your argument ShortCake (freedom of speech has nothing to do with it), but you are dismissing others.

Uhh..."period".

-Penguin

Amen is right. Didn't really change my opinion, just assured me that you are one helluva great person.

whew -- i just read the whole thread, and it's completely draining! too much anger, too many insults. hey, come on, people -- please remember to respect differing opinions and values. enough of the expletives and insults -- no name calling necessary. why do we have to call someone an "idiot", or "stupid? just because one's reasoning or line of thinking is flawed, by our definition? we have Freedom of Speech, but remember that along with this freedom,
"responsibility" is a must. meaning -- use freedom wisely, and that is your responsibility/ accountability. this goes with "free will" --we all have a right to be straight or gay/ homosexual. it's HOW we use this right which makes the difference (and that's what we call using freedom responsibly). one can be straight, but abuse the opposite sex; or one can be gay and commit lascivious acts.

religion and politics -- very sensitive topics. you can expect endless debates and arguments on these two. i come from a religious country (the largest Catholic country in Asia) and, as such, have my own points of view regarding God, homosexuality, sin, and the Bible. but i will not share these -- as i've said, religion is a sensitive topic. in the end, you just can't please everyone, or have everyone agree with you. one will agree, another will oppose.

let's just leave this at that. in the end, let's just respect everyone's opinion.

whew, boy, is this topic exhausting.

Thanks, JJ

Don Papa - Very wise post!

That was a very intelligent, Anton. And I think it was very adequate, in most parts, and very well thought out. Thing is, ShortCake doesn't go by her own words(no offense, ShortCake), she just goes by with the Bible says. Weather she agrees or disagrees; "the Bible is right!" That's why certain things about the Catholic religion, although I am Catholic, bug me. I don't like being a slave to my religion, and not being able to have my own opinions. I think it's okay to be Catholic, believe in God; go by the Bible(SOMEWHAT), but still disagree with some parts, and have my own beliefs. That's called freedom of speech, free will, which the Bible says to have amd I enjoy having. ShortCake, OS, DV; they just go by WHATEVER the Bible says no matter WHAT.

Even, though, ShortCake, I'm still confused and wanting some clarification about your hypocritical ways when you agreed with everything I said, then said the complete opposite. Please verify what opinional side you're on, and why you keep switching.

Don Papa, very wise, as Geoff said. I guess I can be responsible for the "name calling" a bit. But, alot of times, I just consider "idiot" and "stupid" ways of saying "HELLO!" They are VERY mild; as swear words seem to be the dangerous ones, which I try to avoid in arguments. It's just, people like OS who try to look smart when they aren't bug me. When they have NO valid points, and just cry out "THE BIBLE SAYS SO!!" without any beliefs of their own. That just pisses me off. But, I get what you're saying and agree.

If we can carry on a "peaceful" debate, which is nearly impossible, great. If not, it's better to end it.

I have spoken...

I'm not even gonna read all of that shit that you guys just wrote. I saw 'Shortcake' in there WAY too many times, so I guess I have to comment.

All I am going to say is that I have my own opinions and views on things and I am not going to 'lighten up' or 'think' because someone disagrees with me. I have Freedom of Speech and also FREEDOM OF MIND which means I can think whatever the hell I want. Nobody is going to change that so I suggest you stop wasting your time.

BTW, Lombardi, I NEVER said I agreed with homosexuality so stop saying I did. I want proof from a thread where I said in EXACT words that agreed with it. It is disgusting, like it or not.

We never said you can't have Freedom Of Speech. We're using our rights to it, and so are you. We're just discussing/debating it with you. Doesn't mean we're automatically trying to change your views to fits ours.

Proof? This is going to be fun. It was in the thread where you started posting all those pictures of ugly people. I dunno the name of the thread, but I'll search anyhow.

The title had "Minnow" in it. I think it was "Detication to Minnow". Yea, all the fat women you posted and everyone got discusted.

I really hate arguing with you Anthony. Seriously, you're my bud and all, but that is EXACTLY what you're doing. You are arguing your point because you don't agree with mine, and you keep arguing until I say 'OK, Tony, you're right.' Well, guess what...this time the pet is right, not the master. Now I don't care if you feel the way you do, but I feel the way I do about the matter and I want everyone to drop it.

Wow, I'm so fucking glad that my 'wabbit hunter' shot me in the back. I didn't expect you to turn on me Vercetti. Unlike everyone else. Punks.

I was saying the name of the thread, I didn't "Turn on you." Sren't you being just a LITTLE dramatic? And wtf is with "wabbit hunter"?

Ah, you guys have got to stop changing the locations. Everytime you post it is something new. Don't play dumb,V, you know what the hell a 'wabbit hunter' is. And I said that you,err, 'turned on me' because in the PM you asked me not to leave because you needed a BB friend and now you go bitching at me and taking someone's side who always picks on you.

1st. I was joking with you. notice the " " that was there.

2nd. I am not bitching at you.

There is no smiley in your post V.

ShortCake, you blow things out of proportion! The minute someone disagrees with you or something, they're a "backstabber", a "punk." "Punks?" We're "punks" because we disagree with you? This is a discussion about homosexuals, and you better expect people to disagree with others. Everyone else here can discuss this without insulting, and saying we're "punks."

You make it as though I'm some villan, who, when people disagree with me, I go on a rampage. You make it as though I always FORCE you to agree with me or something. When have I ever? Don't shove words in my mouth. I've never forced anyone to agree with me. This is a debate, if someone disagrees with you; it's natural, it's common. Don't get attitudes with those who aren't on your side.

By the way, I was being polite in all my posts directed towards you, so don't give me attitudes for no reason.

Yes there is, I just checked, I just made a mistake. Its the " " one and that still means I was joking with you.

why, thank you so much, JGeoff!

now, please lock this up! it's not getting anywhere.

Where in the world is SC when you need him....I know he was the last one with the box of crayons!

Why in the world do you people keep getting into these topics....

Sure everyone wants to be right and in control.
But you will never get anywhere if you don't stop and listen to what the other people are saying once in a while, instead of looking for points to attack each other on...

Talk is cheap here..show us some facts, figures or real words of wisdom and cut the name calling out!

By the way MY god can shove a lighting bolt up all your asses and not even get out of his chair!

Hey, Cammy.

Exactly my point. If you're gonna debate, discuss, or even JUST TALK; you have to listen to what others say. And even when you're just talking, you need some facts! You can't just say "because," "I said so," or "the Bible says so!" You need some facts or knowledge or beliefs of your own!

AL, if anything in this world is definative; if anything in this world can stop a debate for good, it's the Bible. Sure, you'd like to give your own opinions on the way you comprehend the Good Book, but that's that. Bible says **** are going to hell, they sure are. Bible says if you fuck up and go to hell unless you repent, you sure do. The reason that religion is such a hot topic is because people are weak. They want to SEE God and talk to him. It's not happening folks, unless you are part of a miracle. Live with it. Die with it. In the afterlife, you will get to spend plenty of time with him, if you do what he commands.

I know someone is going to counter with "religious people are weak, they believe because they are scared". You are 100% right. I am terrified. I want more than anything to go to heaven. But fear doesn't make me weak. Everyone is afraid at one point or another. Faith makes me strong in that I can dedicate my life 100% to something that I have never seen, heard, touched, or smelled. My mind is strong enough to keep me focused and unwaivering.

That being said, my personal opinions are as follows. Gays are wrong, and will pay the ultimate price. AL has very twisted views. If you believe in what you say you do, it is most certainly not My Catholic God. Not all sins get you to hell. Only mortal sins. And you can be forgiven, only if you are truly sorry. Does this contradict with free will? No. You can do what you please, but there are consequences. Do evil, go to hell. Do good, go to heaven. By free will, it is meant that you will not be forced to go one way or another. If you want to fuck a guys ass, you can. Your dick will not miss. But when you do, you are damning yourself.

And what makes you respect a homo? What do they do that is so respectable?

I hate this crap too, I get called a "Bible Thumper" on the AOL boards when I really didn't do anything but mention a Jesus quote. And not really HH, you cannot go to Hell if you committed a Vinial Sin. Mortal sins get you there

Anton, do you believe that Jesus never existed, or that he was simply not the Son of God?

People from every reilgion know that Jesus was alive. Jews believe he was simply a prophet that thought too much of himself. Muslims recognize him as a prophet. Buddhists, Confusciusts, etc. all acknowledge the fact that he lived. The only difference is that Christians believe he is the Son of God, the others don't. I don't know how you can claim that he never existed.

Keep reading. It is in my last paragraph.

Sorry, I read the first two paragraphs because I was in a hurry. My ma's nagging me for some reason.