How would you rank them from top to bottom?, in power i mean influence, having a full administration, earnings ect

Heres what my rough idea is

1. Genovese
2. Gambino
3. Lucchese
4.Columbo
5.Bonanno
6. Philadelphia
7. New England
8. Detroit
9. Decavacantes
10. kansas city [book making operation]
11. milwaukee..anyone left there? haha

Interesting to see if you guys have a similar opinion, did i miss anyone? obviously im not going to put families on there that have 1 or so guys left

Also where would the montreal family join this?, i have no idea of their size...seen to have alot of power though.

Can't speak outside NY / NJ but Bonnanos ahead of Columbos - as they have more young guys - SI seems to be their making grounds - a lot of blue collar kids but not sure thats the way to go long term- a lot of street stuff . Col. I just don't know, always BK , hear random stuff that they have finally been following the right playbook , maybe their scams set up better for the long term now ? I hear both are still in rougher shape but what do I know. A lot of SI kids it seems for the one team

The Chicago Outfit?

The NY families look about right. Though one could argue about the Colombos and Bonannos.

Chicago would come next, followed by either New England or Philadelphia. After that would be New Jersey.

Detroit would be after all of them.

Beyond that you're getting into areas where there isn't even a recognized viable family anymore. Maybe Buffalo would be next.

Milwaukee shouldn't be on that list. There hasn't been a mob case there in 30 years.

ohkay thanks, i fully forgot chicago!

The first is the Siderno Group that rules on Toronto and defeated the sicilian rizzutos had ties in italy and even in Australia and is high on drugs and weapons trafficking.
The second are the genoveses and after the Gambino, lucchese,bonanno and colombo. Out NY philly,patriarca,Chicago, Detroit and decavalcante.

http://aboutthemafia.com/tag/siderno-group

6 chicago
7 Phill
8 Jersey
9 new england
10 detroit

The Montreal Mob would be on the same level of Genovese/Gambino, and perhaps even ahead of them when things are stable. Also I would consider the Siderno group to be the most powerful out of North America, I know they're 'Ndranghea and not LCN, but nevertheless they're still Italian OC

Bronazora I just put the siderno group on the top. Isnt true that arent lcn when the ndrine come in a country with the time merce with the non italian but continue to hold the blood ties with the Calabria.
The rizzutos lose most of it power after the mob war and arent more the sixth family.

Now that we know the Ndrangheta is doing business the Gambino family I would the the Gambino's as No.1.

why would you say that? drug trafficking does not make a family number 1 and the majority of the gambino family members would not be involved in drug trafficking with the Ndrangheta it would be a small number of guys.

You have to remember most of these guys are not full time drug dealers

The Ndrangheta is international, they didn't get that big for no reason at all. They move in and control the drugs. Once you do you have the power & money. The american LCN will be transformed and fall under the arms of the Ndrangheta. It is only a matter of time.They have done this in many countries around the world. I don't see why the U.S would be immune to this.

What are they going to do push 700 made guys out force them to deal drugs when most of them are bookies they dont even deal drugs ridiclous this is kill the heads of the five familys i cant believe what i am reading what are they going to do fly over and kill them .

The Ndrangheta have not "taken over" any country in the world sure they have guys operating all over the world importing drugs but they control the criminal groups operating in these countrys

They have already become the new drug suppliers for the five familys over taking Cosa Nostra that does not mean they run the five familys probably 85% of the money the five familys make has nothing to do with drugs.

I dont think you understand the LCN in Amercia if you think drug trafficking especially in 2016 dictates who has the power drug they make more money and more involved in gambling, loansharking and construction this is one of the most ridiclous points i have seen on this board

I am sorry to disappoint you but the LCN is becoming more and more a joke. The Bonnano family is a prime example. You have bosses becoming rats. The young Italian american generation do not have the honor code. The minute they get arrest they will strike a deal. Then you got their families that go on a reality shows or write a book.This is why they will slowly be taken over. The Ndrangheta have very few turncoats compared to other Mafia organizations. They have a very strong honor code and are more low key. They are very powerful and have lots of money.This is why they have outgrown the other organizations. Fifty lions are worth more than 700 sheep.

One more thing they do not have to fly over they are already there and they will expand a little at a time. I am only reporting what has been going on in other countries. They have formed an alliance with the Gambino's and will grow stronger in time. I also said that the Five families will be transformed, I never said they will go there and shoot everyone in site. They are also structured differently than the LCN. They also do not have problems recruiting members that will follow the honor code but the LCN have problems recruiting. LCN is not what it used to be. I am just stating the facts from what I have read in news articles and the many books that I have read on this subject matter.

Ciment, you are fucking idiot, gangster report is write.....

Go live in your fantasy land somewhere else.

The Ndrangheta is having enough trouble trying to overtake a falling apart rizzuto family in montreal with probably less than 40 members...

So i highly doubt they could muscle in on 700-800 in new york..

Waste of time even talking to you.

Cut out the personal attacks, carminezazzi.

Carmine is right though. Ciment is living in fantasy land. It's the same predictions others made about the Sicilians over the years and now it's the Calabrians.

I am just stating a pattern that is going on. You and your friends are making accusations on things I did not say and using mockery and insults to prove your points rather than trying to understand my view point. I am not trying to convince people but to state my point as intellectually as possible and I respect other peoples viewpoints even if they differ from mine but if you want to conduct yourselves as children then go ahead and have your fun. This is the end of my conversation with you tough guy.

+1 Ciment.
Well said.

The Ndrangheta or the sicilians or colombian and mexican drug organisations dont go into other countries and try to take over all they want is to have a guy there that can sell their drugs in bulk and get paid and thats it.They dont give a fuck who is running what family or how things are structered its just heres a ton of coke pay me and thats it.If Ndrangheta had contacts in LA with black gangs they would just as easily do buisness with them as they would with the gambinos they have no interest in whats going on in the street

The police are too militarized in the US. Down in Texas cops are armed to the teeth and, surveillance is hell. Those OC groups rather gain control in Canada in Australia I'm sure compared to here .

You're predicting the Ndrangheta is going to take over. For years people said the same things about the Sicilians. It never happened and neither will your prediction. Furthermore, even in today's American mob, turncoats are still very much the minority. People talk about "everybody lining up to rat" but it's hyperbolic nonsense. If it were true, the NY families really would be finished like the predictions 20 years ago asserted.

Exactly i mean for example..... how many mobsters has the genovese family had for instance...800?... 1000? over the last 50 years and only 7 informants

Being an informant isnt actually that common...your buying into the media press bullshit. For starters being an informer will get you killed even today, and or you will be kicked out of the life...have to watch your back and wont have an contacts to make money...

Try getting a job as ex mafia rat...goodluck [ask john alite, hes broke}

@tiger84
NAILED IT,LOL
@climent

I get what you are saying, the point you are trying to make, this is the thing...

Neither the Sicilians, or Ndrangheta want to take over the American families, they never have.

Their Concern is controlling the flow of narcotics. You gotta understand, the Sicilians and calabrians are based in basically small towns. Rural type organizations, that traditionally were based off Mafiosi "protecting" wealthy estates, and the owners of the wealthy estates having close ties to politicians. So it's a system that works hand in glove so to speak. This power is concentrated in THIER TERRITORY, remember it's literally the land that their power was based off. But these territories are limited in their economic potential, which is why there is fierce competition, and a need for a tightly regulated system for the " men of honor". This system of complicity also enable the collection of pizzo' the tax on all the business in said territory. Furthering the need for a mechanism for who gets what, and who is entitled to what at any given time.

Now drugs change things a little. The first guy to get the most solid, reliable connection, respect, prestige, old age, family ties, whatever be damned, PEOPLE WILL FOLLOW THE MONEY. ( This is why the Sicilians became so involved with Turkey and the Corsicans, the Calabrians being so embedded in South America, to gain control of the supply end, whole sale markets)

The guy that can secure a reliable, safe, distribution point, where large amounts of narcotics can be moved effectively and quickly, will always be valuable to a supplier, and will always have leverage at the table. It also MAXIMIZES profits (This is why you saw the Sicilians sending crews over to America to move heroin, why the Calabrians entrench themselves in European cities, they don't control their own distribution in Italy, and why, despite their lack of refinement, you see Bikers and street gang leaders with a say in the trade, the "Marlo Method" I like to call it.... )
Also, you will never see Americans sending crews to Italy, for the same reasons Naples doesn't send crews here. Both sides already have control of city streets, the rural Sicilians and calabrians never had that luxury... Hence they move around a LOT MORE....
They need street corners, or bars, or trendy night clubs, places to move merchandise, they can't do this from the hills somewhere in Sicily or Calabria. That why the Pizza connection was so smart, the guys were constantly in motion, never a concentration of customers and product, and money in one spot, cash operation, ready made built in money laundering component, built in delivery, it was a smart thing...
Ace narcotics smugglers,the guys that can get the loads from one side of the ocean, to another. The guys that control docks and ports.The guys that can truck the stuff from state to state under cover. Be it coffee, powdered milk, fruit, in furniture, whatever, this guy will always be valuable to a supplier cause it one less thing for him to worry about. ( I suspect this is why the Frenchman is so valued in Montreal, he STILL has a seat at the table)

I'll add a fourth component, though it only comes into play once you establish yourself in the chain. This is a reliable money laundering network, and for this I'll use the Caruana- Cun-trea family....



Now you guys mention the Sicilians, Ivey, you gotta understand...
I DONT THINK THE SICILIANS WERE EVERY REALLY INTERESTED IN, EVEN MEMBERSHIP IN THE AMERICAN FAMILIES.
They accepted it as a price of doing business type of thing, but their entire focus was moving their drugs, and laundering the money, that's it.
Take this excerpt from Sixth Family...

https://books.google.com/books?id=0ZygQJ...ano&f=false


It's about how Sciascia was a Bonnano capo, but had no real interest in the Bonnano Family, outside of using it as a mechanism to facilitate his drug business. That's pretty much the Cherry Hill Gambinos as well, they were loyal to Sicily until Riina killed every thing, then they accepted American mob membership as a survival tool. Ditto with Sal Catalano, in the book it says he basically moved narcotics and stayed to himself. So I while I understand the point climent is making about the strength of Ndrangheta, I sort of agree with Ivey on this one.

See if the Cotroni/Violi organization would have let Nick Rizzuto and the Sicilians just move their narcotics with Impunity, the Rizzutos never woulda gave a fuck about who was boss of Montreal. The fact that they tried to use the criminal hierarchy as justification for controlling the operation, made it a necessity to control the hierarchy. I'll bet you if Angelo Bruno would have balked at letting the Gambinos set up shop in Jersey he woulda been very dead a lot sooner, and maybe not even from the American Gambinos.


You know why you never see the Camorra in America? They have all the urban distribution centers in Italy and a lot of Eastern Europe (cities like Prague) so all they need is reliable supply. They can just buy from Ndrangheta, then move the stuff on the streets of Naples. It why you see so much drug gang violence, young guys, "Baby Bosses" they call em, like gun battles In the streets type of activity. At one point they were very entrenched in Castel Del Sol in Spain, and so controlled their own supply as well, but I don't think this is still the case? @ Furio Raffale Amato, the Spaniard right? But I think he got busted a long time ago......


It comes down to this; If the American Mafia tried to exert some sort of control over Ndranghetas narcotics operation, we would be like " Oh my god they hit Frank Cali!!!, like tomorrow, lol. But they won't, so there will never be a real conflict of interest there. If the American mob want to get into the narcotics business' they will contact Ndrangheta. If Ndrangheta wants in on any American investments for all their ill gotten gains, as well as channels for laundering the money, the American mob could and would probably help.

Now one thing I don't get.... Why do you guys think sports books, loan sharking, unions, can compete with narcotics as far as earning? Tom Hagen would disagree with you guys, lol. I routinely see these European gangs getting 100-200-300-400 million euros worth of shit taken from em on a REGULAR BASIS, it seems to do nothing to stop the system.

When climet said he was looking at repeating patterns worldwide, I agree with that. (Pizza connection for heroin, recent Pizza connection in Queens for coke)Like it's pretty much a fact the cartels earn more than the American families. If you follow this stuff, its become common knowledge that the Calabrians out earn even THEM. I would definitely say that the Rizzutos rivaled any of the American families in earnings, including the Genovese, based of narcotics operations. It enabled Vito to make moves like that 5 billion dollar bridge they wanted to build. It enabled him to put together that 200 million dollar sports book, like it wasn't the other way around.


All these powerful worldwide gangs, are into narcotics, it knows no boundaries, yet you guys still think the REGIONAL NEW YORK mob, could compete without any major involvement in the drug trade. Even as we acknowledge most of the billion dollar rackets were busted up like garbage, the garment center, the docks, I'm just saying, what would they have left, that would be comparable? Entertainment? You never really hear much there, they gotta have some connects still... I know there is gambling, but again there is no way that guy has more liquidity than a successful drug dealer, I can't see it. Only during the Harlem boom times, when they had all the narcotic distribution( see my point here) all the action from numbers, that's a lot of hard cash, Fat Tony had the biggest book I've ever heard of at 80 million, and he was Harlem based. Maybe only Gerry Catena ,Richie the boot in jersey, only guys I've heard of remotely as rich but this is a different era. Today it's all drugs, unless you have some Richie Martino kind of ingenuity, but I haven't seen anything like that in awhile, it's all mostly traditional mob stuff. And traditional mob stuff ain't beating narcotics, not as far as I can see...
My last edit; I also think the sophistication of some of these narcotics operations is underrated, for example; The Naples gangs created distribution cells that have no street presence. It's more based on clicks like the college student pusher, or the law office pusher, or the doctors office pusher. Saviano called em Neo-Liberal mobsters lol. They also created a system where a regular working joe could invest in narcotics transactions like it was a stock, and they paid out when the investment, the shipment was sold off. In this way they always had ready capital for narcotics shipments, whereas the calabrians have the trust of Colombia and can get everything on credit, tremendous leverage there...

Good discussion, any more thoughts fellas?

Bookmaking is a bigger moneymaker for the American mob because it is more deeply involved in and has more control over it than it does with narcotics. The NY families are the only ones who it could be said have a significant stake in the drug trade but even they have been marginalized in it to one degree or another.

Men what you dont understand of ndrangheta is that was based on the blood ties.
One cousin that emigrate on Australia or Canada had strong ties with the cousin in Calabria. For example Robert Trimpole was an aussie but when in 70s wanted to pass from weed to heroin must ask the ok to the old men of the ndrine in New south Walles.
The ndrangheta apart in europe is a drug supplire and make deals with the american mafia but would sell coke with everyone can pay. For the rats story due the bloody ties a men that want to rat know that as retaliation every parents will be killed even is child of 3 y (coco case).
I think that some ndrine had it men in the West coast and maybe made deal with street gangs but until now there sent proofs of this.

Oh I get you Ivey, I know the American LCN makes more from bookmaking than narcotics, in fact it's just smart for them to focus more on gambling than drugs for the reasons of control. I meant more in general, that a drug operation makes more than a bookmaking/loan operation, and faster, but is almost directly in proportion, how can I put it? As safe and reliable a bookmaking operation is, on the other end of the spectrum, the drug trade is equally as volatile and unpredictable. Until you manage to get the links in the chain, then it becomes, like, an exponential multiplier effect as far as revenue. It's like a financial virus, or cancer even, it feeds on itself....

I also wondered what affect the Gambinos involvement with Ndrangheta would have on the power structure in NY.

I'll say it again, it's why the Queens coke bust with hints of Genovese/Calabrian collaboration was so interesting to me. I saw it as ( if it's actually true) a Genovese response to the Gambinos moves with the calabrians. Or it could be just like in the sixth family, where the Italians from Italy are initiating these alliances, and not exactly taking no for an answer.

New York appears to be a converging point right now, The Mexicans want it,but may have to settle for heroin. The calabrians are moving in, as they already are pretty close to securing their own gateway, i.e. Montreal, once they get that sewn up, there will probably be a lot of consolidation with the shipments as everyone will use Montreal since it's under Calabrian control now. Maybe we will see much more retail presence in NY from the calabrians as they open up bars and clubs or whatever.I don't know where all this will leave the Dominicans, I guess they will keep retail in NY, may have to compete with the Mexican cartels for wholesale on the East coast pretty soon I'm not sure, it depends on how much coke comes-gets through the Caribbean...

It's like the genovese have access to union treasuries, like they will always have cash for loans, and to back gambling operations right? That's what I see the gambinos drug operations as, money machines to underwrite their other traditional mob rackets. It's the one thing that gives me pause to automatically putting the Westside number one...