@blackfamily

The stones n Motown fight each other nowadays

Plus the kings got deep over there

Hispanics moved into some neighborhood's that were black

@ cook

Well I was just using Mo Town for size example but still smh. Don't T.T have it worst tho?

Kings still got to deal with them Saints.

Where else are latino moving into black communities?

How does the Outfit stay in power with so few members? I wonder how much the Chicago demographics have changed since the heyday of the Outfit back in the Capone/Accardo/Giancana days? At one time, it sounds as if the Outfit was the big dog of the underworld in Chicago, but obviously, things have changed. Ethnic shifts combined with a huge increase in street gangs have drastically reduced the Outfit's reach and power. I'm sure there were local street gangs in Chicago way back in the days, but probably nothing like today, and not to the point where the Outfit would have to avoid certain areas or avoid getting involved in certain rackets.

Too much criminal competition nowadays for any one organization to be in charge.

The definition of power tends to differ by definition. Southside have become majority black with modest amount of Latinos then everybody else in different sections, while Westside become fairly balance of Blacks & Latinos then the rest is mixed ( not entirely accurate about this part).

Many times you'll hear that the Outfit had a monopoly after defeating the North side Mob but even that wasn't true. Not to take away or downsize their rackets & political connections; They was the major syndicate in the city in regards to diverse activities and especially their milk & honey. Now for certain activities they had minor involvement is where the other Syndicates and groups come into play.

Chicago had a hundred times the gangs back in the 1920s but smaller membership ( 1,200+ Gangs, 10,000+ Population). Those range from racketeering groups ( Bootlegging) to social clubs ( Street Gangs/ Greasers). Over time the number of gangs shrunk but the population expanded ( Today : 59 Gangs , 70,000+ Population). The combination of economy, housing discrimination , drug trade, corruption, and war on gangs shaped the gangland to the point presently. Regardless of the time period, Gangs & Syndicates contributed to the violence that plagues Chicago.

I agree on the competition but only in regards to certain activities. The Outfit still have a semi monopoly on specific gambling & juice loans rackets in the city. Everything else come second per say.

Does the Outfit engage in drug dealing often or are they too weak in the market to do so nowadays?

Going by themost recent estimates, the Outfit has a manpower of about 150. 25-30 members and a little over 100 associates.

The reduction in the size and scope of the Outfit is due, first, to attrition, and second, to law enforcement.

If you want to talk about ethnic shift, it's been the assimilation of Italians into mainstream society.

The competition from other groups being a reason for mob decline has long been exaggerated. Especially compared to the causes listed above.

The one big exception to that would be control of the drug trade. However, in the case of the Outfit, it always had limited involvement in narcotics so gangs growing in number and other groups controlling drugs has little to do with reducing the Outfit's reach and power.

The Outfit today is similar to other small families outside NY by illegal gambling being it's main niche. And related crimes, like loansharking and extortion, are more central than drugs, which they have a more peripheral involvement in.

@ivyleague

a guy that spent 10 yrs in prison after being convicted in a racketeering indictment with tony accardo is the vice president of the company that cleans ohare airport.

the difronzo brothers company did construction on chicago public schools. those two instances are probably more corrupt than anything going on with the 5 families

The street organizations that had/have interacted with Outfit members/associates are the following:
Mickey Cobras
Black P. Stones
Vice Lords
New Breeds
Spanish Gangster Disciples
Maniac Latin Disciples
Spanish Cobras
Gangster 2-6
Insane Dueces

You are very knowledgable and I enjoy reading your posts.

Do you know of any times throughout Chicago history where local gangs or small-time criminal groups directly tried to oppose the Outfit or muscle in on some of the Outfit's rackets? Other than the Capone wars against Bugs Moran and Hymie Weiss (and also Giancana battling it out with Teddy Roe), I have never head too much about any big issues with that type of thing. BUt the way I see it is, especially today, where street gangs are in the thousands in Chicago, what it stopping some of the Chicago street gangs today from simply deciding to start competing with the Outfit in various rackets? What happens if a local gang makes a move against an Outfit member or an Outfit-controlled business? I know the Outfit has a lot of strength from its political connections and also through its relationships with various corrupt law enforcement and judges, along with unions, etc., so they do have a lot of power that most of the local gangs probably do not have.

@ Jasonanthony74

Thanks and it's the senior members on the board that influence credible information as well.

" Do you know of any times throughout Chicago history where local gangs or small-time criminal groups directly tried to oppose the Outfit or muscle in on some of the Outfit's rackets?"

You should dig through my profile's topics. Yes but very few instances and heavily vague on details. The reoccurring theme is the Stones push some of the Outfit's operations out of the South side , burned a diner or restaurant down which was Outfit owned or hangout, and whack 2 Outfit associates. Again, Vague on details until someone buys those Chicago Tribune articles in their archives. When the Outfit members/associates that pickup money from the policy racket on the Southside, he eventually hired a local members of a gang to protect him have been mention on occasions too.

" what it stopping some of the Chicago street gangs today from simply deciding to start competing with the Outfit in various rackets?"

Juvenile delinquency , Neighborhood conflicts, and Racketeering interest.
Wiser and organized members tend to follow the same principles as the Outfit : Low Profile & Business oriented. Also , not to many ties through the Outfit.

" What happens if a local gang makes a move against an Outfit member or an Outfit-controlled business"

It won't happen presently. Speaking in a realistic "What if" , it depends on who , what , and where is involved and there's going to be a sit down to clear things up or possible compromise then back to business as usual.

The high ranking members generally have political influence as well or some members kickback to law enforcement or infiltrate them. A current black female politician of Chicago , can't think of her name, had 2 sons (1 died by shooting) in which 1 was a Mickey Cobra and other Black P. Stone. There's other examples of interaction of chicago gangs & politicians even being invited to a presidential inauguration ( Henry " Mickey" Cogwell).

Ive posted this before.
Its a chicago tribune article about relations between the outfit and street gangs. Its from 1974, It involves sit-downs between the p stones, mickey cogwell and joe divarco and big joe arnold on the outfit side. It was concerning coming to a financial arrangement with the gang in order to stop them from terrorising the mob operations in black neighbourhoods.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1974/04/21/page/217/

" what it stopping some of the Chicago street gangs today from simply deciding to start competing with the Outfit in various rackets?"

What rackets can we actually confirm the modern day outfit have some monopoly over in chicago that would warrant another group to come in and compete with them for it.

yup. they would be

toast, the only reason they were as powerfull as they were,

was because j. edgar hoover, turned a blind eye to them.

went after everyone else though. they got away with running the whole country when hoover was around.

Street gangs are too busy fighting each other over their niche - the drug trade in their geographic areas. It's not like they're going to just up and decide one day to make a move on the mob's video poker machines in suburban bars or whatever. Again, different worlds where the overlap is more the exception than the rule. But this seems almost disappointing to people who apparently watch too many movies.

I think ken eto worked with members of the black p stones in gambling ventures and maybe even drugs at one point.

Did the outfit have any connection to flukey stokes?

The times when the mob has been dominant over black street gangs is when they had to control over the drug trade. Back during the French connection and when Carmine Galante was in power I think is the most realistic way to see how how the mafia was dominant over street gangs without seeing a (non-believable) city-wide war.

-> JHype

The black street gangs wasn't involved in drug trafficking during the beginning of the French Connection (30-40s). The time frame of the 30s to 40s is when the black gangs was involved in small crimes. The 50s-60s is when activities start growing into the areas of extortion, cargo theft, and prostitution. You could somewhat add misappropriation. By the end of the French Connection in the 70s, the black gangs have made connections to heroin suppliers ( Frank Matthew, Frank Lucas, Nigerians, etc) and other forms of racketeering.

The manpower they had back in the 60s exceeded the Outfit back them as well.

https://www.uic.edu/orgs/kbc/ganghistory/UrbanCrisis/WaronGangs.htm

"The juke box dealer who supplied her tavern was subsequently visited by a group of six Rangers who demanded $125,000 to protect his business. The demand was later reduced to $50,000"

this ain't the 80s, or 90s, gangs are into all kinds of crimes like all other criminals

u probably think there ain't a gang out there that has their own video poker machines

There are always exceptions but you can look at case after case involving street gangs. The vast majority have the typical charges - drug trafficking and related crimes that facilitate the drug trade, ie weapons possession, assault, murder, etc. Anyone who says differently doesn't know what they're talking about.

Street gangs are so dysfunctional and so incredibly disorganized that you can't help but be in awe when people try to make a case for them, especially when we're talking about black street gangs. I think Ivy is right though, there may be one or two exceptions, but damn lol. A street gang may have the numbers, but that doesn't mean they are more powerful than a real organized crime family. 1000 apes are not smarter or stronger than 100 human beings who can actually read and calculate.

What the fuck exactly is wrong with this dude?



Does any one else notice how he had to throw the ape comment in there?


And again, he doesn't know what the fuck he is talking about, like at all...

I though I put the little sissy in his place already but apparently....

Also in thread RIGHT below this one about Montreal, they basically say the street gangs are more than just street gangs, so there is that...

@ Ivey


This whole thread is a good example of why I'm always saying simply counting the numbers is not an accurate measure of an organizations strength.

And why I feel it necessary to distinguish a power syndicate from an enterprise one.

I'm not saying black people are apes. I'm referring to members of street gangs in general. They behave like apes. Is everything racial with you? And no, you never put me in place. You couldn't handle the fact that black people are insanely more likely to commit murder than any other race, and you decided to get personal. That's what animals do. Thankfully I agreed to keep the peace for the sake of this forum. You call that putting me in place? lol.

The problem with your comment is that there are countless examples of organized street gangs, like the one in the Montreal thread right now, so how else is one to interpret your comments?

Now this a thread about the Bds, do you know anything about them, what they were? I f not chew on this......




Feds: Gang was 'independent nation' of crime
Chicago Sun-Times, May 14, 2004 by Frank Main

As the "king" of Chicago's notorious Black Disciples street gang, Marvel J. Thompson ran a recording studio, owned a lounge and even operated a pirate FM station that warned his underlings when the cops were coming, prosecutors say.

Thompson, 35, is accused of sitting at the helm of a massive criminal corporation that raked in as much as $300,000 a day in drug profits and kept its members in line with baseball bats and guns.

But a 185-page indictment unsealed Thursday is likely to dethrone Thompson and put dozens of his top leaders behind bars for a long time, said U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald.
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"These defendants are alleged to be not just drug dealers, but individuals who had their own laws, territory, justice system and economy," Fitzgerald said. "They operated as if they were an independent nation, subject only to the laws of the streets."

Chicago Police launched the investigation, code-named "Marvel Less," six years ago after a federal indictment decimated the hierarchy of another murderous organization, the Gangster Disciples. Police will monitor BD turf to make sure violence does not fill the vacuum created by arrests of the gang's leaders, said Police Supt. Phil Cline.

Chicago Police and federal agents executed a dozen search warrants Wednesday, seizing more than $300,000 in cash from one of Thompson's properties along with 11 guns, bulletproof vests, jewelry and boxes of gang documents, authorities said.
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With the help of the Federal Communications Commission, they also shut down 104.7 FM, a station running out of a building Thompson owns at 6723-29 S. Parnell, officials said.

The station was automated most of the day, but it broadcast live at night, playing uncensored rap and even sending a car around Englewood to take requests and have listeners give "shout-outs" to friends over the radio. Its signal went from Cermak to 110th and from the lakefront to Western, said Larry Langford, a city spokesman. The city's Office of Emergency Communications helped authorities locate the station, which was broadcasting without a license, and record its illegal transmissions, he said.

"They played rap music, unedited, uncut," said Assistant U.S. Attorney Joseph Alesia. There were also "almost public service announcements to the other gang members alerting them to surveillance in certain areas of the South Side."

A studio for M.O.B. Records operated in the same building on Parnell, officials said. Thompson, president of M.O.B., produced "Cha- Cha Slide," a hit album.

The indictment charged 47 people with participating in a 15-year drug distribution conspiracy that could lead to sentences of 10 years to life. Thirty-two of the defendants, including Thompson, were in custody Thursday.

They allegedly controlled the sale of heroin, cocaine and marijuana throughout the South and West sides. Randolph Towers, a 144- unit Chicago Housing Authority high-rise at 6217 S. Calumet, was the hub of their operation, officials said.

The gang used night-vision devices to look for police and posted radio-equipped members on the roof with assault rifles. Trash containers were positioned to keep squad cars out, and anyone entering the building was frisked, officials said.

Thompson, who attended a VIP party after the NBA All-Star game last year and rubbed shoulders with star players, bought buildings to launder his drug money, authorities said. He owned the Nice & Easy Lounge at 73rd and Halsted; a building at 69th and Halsted that housed a currency exchange, liquor store and restaurant, and a house at 101st and Church.

Other BDs spent lavishly, too. Twins Varney Voker and Varmah Voker owned an Atlanta car wash and bought luxury cars such as Bentleys and Mercedes, the indictment said. Varney Voker allegedly bragged he earned $3 million in six months.

The gang is ruthless, Fitzgerald said. In August 2001, for instance, a man and his 6-year-old son were shot because he refused to employ BD members at his drug spot. Earlier that year, an undercover Chicago cop was wounded when BDs patted him down and found he was wearing a bulletproof vest. They opened fire, striking his vest, which saved him.

In 1993, Thompson was convicted of a murder at a South Side car wash where the husband of a Cook County Criminal Courts judge, Loretta Hall Morgan, was also wounded. A judge acquitted Thompson before he was sentenced because a witness recanted, officials say. State drug charges are now pending against him.

The Black Disciples have a long history in Chicago. In 1974, they split from the Gangster Disciples to form their own gang.

Larry Hoover, head of the Gangster Disciples, has been in prison since the 1970s. Thompson has met him six times behind bars to talk about gang business, authorities say.

Longtime Black Disciples leader Jerome "Shorty" Freeman also is behind bars on a 1989 drug conviction.

The indictment refers to Freeman as "co-conspirator A," sources say. It says "co-conspirator A" stepped down as the leader of the BDs in April 2000 in an effort to get out of prison early.



Scams build gang empire
Reputed gang leader Marvel Thompson controlled real estate as well as drugs. What was his secret weapon? Mortgage fraud.


From his second-story office in a grimy South Side commercial building, crime lord Marvel Thompson kept watch over his turf.

The reputed king of the Black Disciples street gang relied on beatings, murder and mayhem to control drug-selling corners across the South Side, prosecutors allege.

To lock in territory, the 36-year-old Robeson High School dropout also deployed a more sophisticated weapon: mortgage fraud.


Over the course of a decade, Thompson used straw buyers, sham sales and phony identities to secure more than $1 million in mortgage loans that went unpaid, records and interviews show.

The Black Disciples' expert use of mortgage fraud signals a menacing development. Once confined to a relatively small group of swindlers, mortgage fraud has morphed into a method of supporting ongoing criminal enterprises such as drug-dealing, smuggling and prostitution, records and interviews show.

Thompson acquired vacant lots, single-family homes and hulking apartment buildings that wrapped around corners where his gang dealt crack and heroin. Gang functionaries lived in some buildings and used others to store drugs and weapons and to stage operations, the Tribune found.

Thompson and a circle of criminal associates used the property to sop up lucrative bank loans. And they collected hundreds of thousands of dollars more from U.S. government Section 8 checks that are supposed to go to landlords to subsidize the rents of poor families.

Similar schemes have cropped up in the Chicago area and across the country, court records show.

A coast-to-coast methamphetamine ring based in the southwest suburbs--known to prosecutors as the Esawi organization--used mortgage fraud to launder drug profits. Traveling Vice Lord Marc Roberson, a convicted cocaine dealer, worked with a swindling crew to secure mortgage loans on two ramshackle West Side homes.

But few of the operations appear as fully evolved as Thompson's. By May 2004, when he was indicted on federal drug conspiracy charges, Thompson controlled at least 15 South Side properties, the Tribune found. Most were clustered within a half-mile of his headquarters at 6901 S. Halsted St. in the Englewood neighborhood.

From there, Thompson kept track of his land portfolio using an HP Vectra computer tower equipped with IBM Red Brick Warehouse business software, search warrant receipts show. Two handguns were tucked nearby.

Thompson pleaded guilty to federal drug conspiracy charges in March but denied being the gang's leader in a court statement. He awaits sentencing and faces 10 years to life in prison. Thompson and his attorneys declined to comment.

His collection of South Side properties was the fulfillment of a stubborn dream. Aided by a cadre of lawyers, accountants and mortgage brokers, Thompson began buying buildings in the early 1990s, soon after he allegedly assumed leadership of the gang.

A dope supplier introduced Thompson to a real estate broker and loan officer who helped him "start a corporation to facilitate the purchase of real estate in order to launder drug money," federal prosecutors wrote in 2004 court papers. "Thompson wanted to use [secret land trusts] to obtain legitimate bank loans."

In the hands of an honest investor, Thompson's properties could have been worth millions of dollars and might have kindled development in a swath of Englewood struggling to rebuild.

Instead, they became ravaged, dangerous shells.

Secret land trusts

To understand how dubious mortgages helped generate cash for Thompson and extend his gang's dominion, consider the three-story, 15-unit courtyard apartment building at 6723-29 S. Parnell Ave.

Thompson bought the building in a 1995 tax auction, although patchy county land records don't show how much he paid. He then titled the property to a secret land trust using an Illinois law that allows property owners to withhold their identities from public records.

Assisting Thompson in these transactions was attorney Peter Loutos, who helped Thompson acquire at least three other properties using secret land trusts, the Tribune found.

Now this IS old, but you give an impression that you've never SEEN OR HEARD of an organized gang, which is silly if you are paying any kind of attention...


And so many of you guys ONLY LOOK AT THE FIVE FAMILIES, if you were to compare gangs with ANY mafia, the closest Imo would be the Naples gangs. Urban, young, violent drug traffickers, 17-21 year old bosses....


If you know anything about gangs in Chicago, you know they were the biggest most organized gangs right?

Now in the thread about Chicago killings, the question arises why?
Well the Feds broke the hierarchy of the strongest gangs, while the biggest territories were torn down, and the gang members displaced.

I wish you could read John Dicke's book on the Sicilian mafia, specifically, his chapter on THE INDUSTRY OF VIOLENCE, and what happens when the state fails to Establish a monopoly on the use of violence. The violence ITSELF becomes a form of currency, that must be invested in the criminal marketplace.
The violence is a result of numerous criminal groups attempting to establish a "market share" so to speak..... You saw this progress to EPIC proportions in Mexico, where the cartels competed with each other, trying to outdo one another with violent spectacle, almost as if the spectacle itself was like a " commercial" for the criminal brand, these people even hung banners like billboards!!!.... I just feel like your understanding of this shit is limited, I'm waiting for you to prove me wrong....

I understand what you're saying about distinguishing between the two and why comparing numbers may not be apples to apples when it comes to comparing the mob and gangs.

However, the discussion has usually been comparing one LCN family to another, which is apples to apples, and we can clearly see how numbers is a huge factor.

As for the articles you posted above, like I said, you can always find exceptions. But look at the bulk of indictments of street gangs.

I don't think it's an exception whether occasional indictment or arrest. Every crime group's membership tends to follow the same pattern in arrest , in which the group major income and related crime is going on their rap sheet. In regards to street organizations due to some being very large it can vary.

I'm talking about looking at things in general. If you look at indictments of street gangs across the board, as I said, it's typically narcotics charges and related crimes that facilitate the drug trade. You could say the same for outlaw motorcycle gangs and prison gangs if you include extortion related to the drug trade. Now, it true, every criminal organization has its core businesses. But I think some have been overstating how diversified most of these gangs are.

And, to be fair, one could say the say about some of the remaining mob families. Philadelphia being the best example. Their core business is illegal gambling - bookmaking and video poker machines. You don't really see evidence of the mob exerting a street tax anymore. At least not like it did under Scarfo. There is marginal involvement in drugs. Occasionally ad-hoc crimes like theft and stolen goods.

@ivyleague

That's why u can't just look at indictments

The bd's arrested n 2005 caught a drug case

The real reason they were indicted was the swathe of property they acquired