Wasnt vito a made guy in sicily

No, he moved to Montreal on like his 8th birthday. But he too was a guy who depended more on the insulation of family and friends coming from his old country..And as we know from Fernandez, Vito was respected by other Sicilian bosses and looked at as one of them.



And yeah, Billy I meant the Messina Bridge project, Lol.

No proof of them being separate, only doing their own thing. Not the same.

No evidence of Nicolo Rizzuto being made in Sicily.

Many people are indicted and nobody else from their Family are included in the indictment. Doesn't mean anything with what we are speaking.

What do you mean no proof? Vitale clearly says "He was supposed to take orders from Joe Massino, but they're their own little splinter group"...Splinter group, as in broke apart.


Nicolo married into the Manno Crime Family in Sicily, Italian Police Documents labeled him a made man.



And you're telling me for a crew that supposedly a part of a NY family, who ultimately has to kick up, youre telling me in not one investigation, ONE investigation is profits linked back to NY? Thus NY mobsters being at the very least named as unindicted co-conspirators?....Ignore the obvious, if you want to, guy.

When will your book be released?

You can read any number of books about the Rizzutos already out, none of which agree with your assertion that they are still an arm of the Bonannos.

Have you read the Sixth Family? That should clear up some of the misconceptions you have.

Have read it. Confirms they are Bonanno Cosa Nostra.

Oh boy here we go again.

I get the distinct feeling this guy is a troll.

Slumpy you are right. Funny how there is a heated debate on the other site and all of a sudden this post is brought back up here as well with the same posts. I refuse to even get into it.

You don't have to waste your time, no books you need to read either. Just read two autopsy reports; one Sciacia, shot in the head, severed Montreal from New York. Second, Sal Montagna, shot, and clarified exactly the position the Bonnano "Boss" held in the scheme of Canadian oc.
This is no disparagement to the NY mob, but an acknowledgement of the reality. You got the Rizzutos, seven Calabrian families, powerful Hells Angels and street gangs, it's another " New York" up there.....

Which other site was there a big debate?

I mean this debate makes more sense, are they traditional LCN, but debating whether the Rizzutos are a Bonnano crew? In 20 fuckin 16? Really?

Nic Rizzuto was most definitely made in Sicily.

During the Controni/Violi years, where they were having trouble with Rizzuto not following rules, failing to show respect and generally acting like he was part of a totally separate organization, Paolo Violi made multiple attempts to remedy the situation bitching to New York Bonnano heavyweights Nat Evola, Phil Rastelli and Mikey Zaffarano. They could do nothing. Hitting Nic would require approval from Italy.

He went so far as travelling to Agrigento, Sicily to meet with Joe Settacasi, the local mafia don there, to appeal to him.
In reality he was never going to go against one of his own.

If Nic Rizzuto had been only made in the Bonnano's, his killing would have been a local matter, approved by Controni,effectively the Montreal capo, possibly cleared through NY, and handled.

The fact they couldn't, shows Nic ultimately answered to Sicily, and was involved in an entirely different game to the one Violi was playing....Sicily needed their own on the receiving end of the drug pipeline, not the American bonnanos.

You hit it on the head with a damn hammer, lol

Not gonna lie, that shit gets on my nerves. They absolutely HATE IT when you state they arent Bonannos. Its like they look up to the NY families more than any other for whatever reason. I posted Vitales court testimony, some guys said I had an obvious valid argument (thanks Sonny, I see you bro, Lol). But just yesterday this one guy reads that same testimony, comments on it, and says "he didn't say anything that has to do with the Rizzutos no longer being Bonannos", even though splinter group by all intents and purposes of the word, means they broke off. And that's exactly what Vitale describes them as. I just gave up, like "oh okay"...Yet not one of them can explain the lack of any Bonanno names coming up in Rizzuto investigations. No audio from any Montreal mafiosi, no wiretaps, no transcripts, implying they answered to the Bonannos. And I'm positively certain this Peccatore character is "toto". And the hilarious thing is, whos their source that the Rizzutos were Bonannos and subservient to them? Dominick Cicale, of all people, and his book with Ed Scarpo. Who btw, despite all his bad habits, HE even states in the same book, that Rizzuto was the boss of his own crime family. Talk about contradictions.

@ CabriniGreen, the other forum is The Black Hand.

Just for a little speculative fun, say the Sicilians stay out of Montreal and there's never a struggle between factions within the organization. Do they stay connected to the Bonannos? What's different? Is Montreal still a major hub in the north America drug trade?

I am not a troll and you can believe as you wish. It does sound like you have had debates.

The question is are the Rizzutos LCN and I say yes, but not an LCN family. They were made into the LCN family.

How are they LCN but not an LCN family? If you believe the Sicilian Mafia and LCN are one and the same, they're an LCN family by all definition. I'd argue that they're the Canadian branch of a Sicilian Mafia family, prided on intermarriages, and insulation. Just like the GTA Siderno Group were the Canadian counterpart of the Siderno 'Ndrangheta.

An LCN Family has boss, underboss, consigliere, caporegime. Montreal did not have this.

Montreal was made into another LCN Family. That is how they are LCN but not an LCN Family. They are LCN members but not an LCN Family.

Okay, so you'll have no issue citing sources that corroborate this opinion, right?

I believe you and SinatraClub may be both right. From my past readings on the subject matter. There were newspaper articles citing that Montreal had a Capo that reported to the U.S.A LCN and this capo had several leutenants reporting to him. This relationship came to an end when Gerando Sciascia got killed by the LCN.This will validate your point. I also find that SinatraClub made a very good comparison of the relationship between the Montreal Sicilian Clan and the Sicilian Clan from Italy. I find the Montreal Sicilian clan always considered themselves to be a separate family but are more closely intertwined with Italy. Whereby Montreal Sicilian Clan and LCN is more a marriage of conveience. I think of it more as a trianglular love affair.

Yes, several of the Montreal Sicilians were related and close due to coming from the same town in Sicily but most were members of Bonanno LCN. They were friends with other Sicilian Mafia clans too. They were not the same Family together.

There are Montreal Italians of other regions some who are Bonanno LCN and others who are ndrangheta.

20 LCN members total in Montreal.

Nah, he has his time line backwards. Montreal started as LCN and slowly moved away once the Rizzutos had supplanted the old Cotroni/Violi faction - They are not separate organizations. They are factions within the same organization. The most widely believed theory is that they cut off all allegiance to the bonannos after Vito's guy in NYC, Gerlando Sciascia was whacked in 1999. And if the Sciascia hit didn't end the relationship, then Joseph Massino flipping probably did. Nobody is suggesting they don't do business with them period, but it's clear they no longer kick up to the Bonannos. Why would they? There's no logical reason for them to remain subservient.

If there is an 'Ndrangheta presence in Montreal, this is the first I have ever heard of it. But it seems to me Pecca here is confusing the 'Ndrangheta with the sicilian mafia... which should be self evident he has no idea what he's talking about.

There is NO 'Ndrangheta in Montreal. There were Calabrians whom were members of the Montreal Mafia. Not Ndrangheta members. Just like there were Neopolitans, and Pugliesi in the Montreal Mafia and families elsewhere. However that doesn't make them Camorra.


And I believe the Capo Ciment may be referring to was Luigi Greco, and there are files and documents which suggest that he too wanted nothing to do with NY, especially after Joe Bonanno was exiled. And this is all the way from the 50's and 60's. The fact that Greco was even referred to in documents as a Liutenant, which is the same thing as a capo, proves Peccatore's claim as incorrect. Nicolo & Vito, once they took the reigns, outside of early NY news articles, which over time were proven to be inaccurate, were referred to as bosses by Canadian authorities. Some like to argue that "well Canada knew little of NY families and their hiearchy". As if NY federal agencies had intimate knowledge of Montreal happenings, or anywhere else in Canada for that matter. Arcadi was also listed in Canadian investigations like Colisee, as various things during different points of the investigation, when Vito was out, he was referred to as his second-in-command, listed as the same before Nicolo's death, and was labeled as street boss, during Vito's incarceration and the death of Nicolo Rizzuto. Whom was also listed in various books and documentation as the Acting Boss. Agostino [BadWord] also held this position prior to his murder, even while Montagna, whom was acting boss of the Bonannos, was IN Montreal.

+1

Good points Sinatra.

The Montreal groups were associated with the NYC Bonnano's from the time Joe Bonnano sent Carmine Galante up there to organize, which was post war 45-47ish.
What Galante found was Luigi Greco, a Sicilian expat, leading a loosely affiliated band of Sicilian LCN members, this is who Nic Rizzuto was aligned with, and the Contorni group, Calabrians, but not Ndrina.

It seems Galante was able to bring these groups together, albeit, there was still tension between the two factions, which is what formed the base of the Bonnanos Montreal crew.

To say there was not much interaction between NY and Canada during this period is an inaccuracy. There is the obvious drug supply connection, but also multiple documented accounts of visits between gangsters from both sides, for both business and pleasure, as well as Montreal was where several of the Bonnano guys headed when they went on the lam.

It seems that the Controni faction, through the 50s and 60s accepted this situation and threw their lot in with the Bonnanos whole heartedly, while the Scilian faction, mostly made up off guys who had been made back in Sicily ,felt stifled under this setup.

The question I have, is when Vito was inducted, and other Montreal mobstersliving in Canada but with the obvious clan ties to the old world familys, to which family did he pledge, the Bonnanos or the Scilian?

I agree with your analysis. My opinion with the pledging would be with the Bonanno's (back then) but because of his blood ties with the old country and Vito's father being who he is; would still be considered a made guy in his hometown.
This subject came about when you discussed Nick in an earlier post about him being a lone wolf and was exiled from Montreal with the intervention of NY.
An example of this is when Paolo Violi was caught in a conversation with the Sicilians from the old country on how to handle a made guy(Nick) that settles in another country and wanted to impose restrictions on him.

Nicolo was never exiled from Montreal though, especially not under the orders of NY. Dunno where you got that tidbit of info from....Violi went to NY to get permission to kill him, NY wouldnt grant him with their approval, because they couldnt. Violi went to Sicily to meet with Giuseppe Settecasi and then asked him for permission, Settecasi had no intention of turning on his own, and ultimately being held responsible for the murder of a Sicilian made guy by a Calabrian who had no links to them. Violin went back, I believe there may have been a second meeting in Montreal between Nicolo, Settecasi, & Violi. And the result was the same but they were advise to amicably work it out. Nicolo still doing his own thing, felt Violi would ultimately try to kill him anyway, so he voluntarily left, for Venezuela and settled with with another family of crime from the triangle of Agrigento, the Caruana-[BadWord]. Whom were made members of the Siculiana Family. That's where Nicolo and by extension, Vito's drug pipeline truly came from. Nicolo and the Caruanas-[BadWord] developed business relationships with South American Drug Cartels, a pipeline NY Bonannos and the Calabrian faction once loyal to them didnt have. Nicolo set up a powdered milk business and furniture export companies in Venezuela which was used to refine the drugs sold to them by the Cartels and then exported into Montreal. The Calabrian side no doubt profitted from this, but they were more like sellers while the Rizzutos were the suppliers. Mind you this really came into effect post Cotroni. But again, Nicolo wasnt exiled, he voluntarily left. And he'd still make visits to Montreal from time to time during this period when the Violis & Cotronis were still in power.


Also, link of piece of document which states Grecos unhappiness with having to deal with NY, and an example of if Nicolo truly answered to NY, why Violi wouldnt have needed permission, as it ultimately boiled down to being a local matter.

And since we have no information or knowledge of Vito being made in NY, I'm going to say his loyalty and allegiance was to his father.