Very interesting!.....Where did you read about this?
It has me wondering now that the reason Michael Pappadio was killed and why he was so afraid to turn over his books to Amuso.....I read that Michael inherited all of Andiamo's business dealings once he was whacked and I don't doubt that included any drug related business.......Michael was a very rich man and if he was involved with drugs, he was a dead man anyway, which maybe explained his defiance and death wish or maybe he went back on the job to gather as much money as possible, before he planned on running away....Either way, he had to be smart enough to know that he could not defy the boss and live.

Nobody is denying that high level associates can have a lot of influence. Sometimes even more than some made guys if they are close enough to the boss or in a key money making position. But technically speaking, they are still associates. I see no convincing evidence that Fernandez was more than that. In other words, I don't believe he went through any kind of formal making ritual ie was seen in the same way as actual made members who had.

As to your other point, I've said before that it appears most of the drugs the Rizzutos smuggled went into and were distributed within Canada. A smaller portion went south across the border to NY. Even at the Rizzutos peak they were never the main supply of drugs to NY. Not even close. And it's been 30+ years since the American mob was.

We have less evidence (read: none) that he wasn't made -- But we DO know Fernandez claimed to be made and that he was doing business in Sicily. I understand and partially agree with the sentiment of your posts, but you are obstinately dismissing Fernandez out of hand simply because it does not fit into your preferred narrative and no other reason. We don't even know if they have a making ceremony at all, so it's kind of a moot point.

I'm not saying (and never will unless more evidence comes to light) that he was made with 100% certainty, but I am not willing to dismiss it unless there is ample reason to do so. We should all be skeptical and we certainly should not take Fernandez at his word, but for the time being we have no contradicting perspectives to challenge it with. Hopefully we will soon and I will gladly eat my own words if it ever comes to light that Fernandez was full of shit... because i don't care if he was or wasn't, I have no vested interest. I'd just like to know the truth.

My gut feeling is that there aren't any "real" members outside of those with blood ties as others have expressed before. That really seems to be the case with them. They'll let you in, they may even call you a member, but you'll never be in the inner circle unless you have a more formal tie.

As to what Cabrini said. That's part of the mystery though, Desjardins may not have been able to go to Sicily and pretend to be a made guy, but Fernandez sure did. There's no evidence to support Vito having him killed to save face for making a spaniard, or any other reason. Fact is, Fernandez dealt with Carbone & Scaduto, those were his main guys in Sicily, both of those guys, worked with Fernandez and they knew of him because of his days back in Montreal. Carbone, I believe, turned rat and then testified and claimed that he always thought Fernandez was more talk. But that didn't encourage him to step up to Fernandez and dispute his "made" status. While in Sicily, Rizzuto's lawyer was in contact with Carbone & Scaduto, he wanted Fernandez to visit with him in the DR. When Carbone delivered the message it was always "The boss, you have to go see the priest..." Fernandez would then call a Canadian contact and complain about it. He blew off Rizzuto twice, that's why he was killed.


And I will say this, I believe the Sicilians only dealt with Fernandez because of his ability to earn. He was trying to import prescription drugs and marijuana into Sicily. The prescription drugs were confiscated before they ever got to Bagheria, and it pissed guys off because Fernandez promised them this shipment would go through. HE turned to marijuana and the property he and the other guy were killed on, was in the process of being turned into a cultivation farm. Had Rizzuto not made the decision to have him killed when he did, had he stayed in Sicily, I think Fernandez would've been killed anyway, because he wasn't coming through on his business promises.

Are you kidding me? We have 100+ years of precedent. That's a HUGE reason to doubt the validity of Fernandez' claims. It's not my "preferred narrative." It's simple fact and history. You say you have "no vested interest" but some of you guys seem to be arguing pretty hard for the possibility, despite there being nothing to support it out of Fernandez' claim. But hey, believe what you want.

I don't think they do the saint burning gear to be fair....just a guess.....has anyone EVER been confirmed as a made member of the rizzuto LCN....Gone through the ritual etc....its just a bunch of italians selling gear as far as I'm concerned

But we already know the Rizzutos are not exactly traditional. How much of that precedent applies? The only right answer is that we don't know. That is all i am arguing. You are attributing an opinion to me i did not express and have only suggested as a possibility.

I much prefer the idea of them being a traditional LCN outfit.. but i don't think they are out of necessity. Its not like montreal is bursting with ethnic italians. No disrespect intended, man. I just think your hard line attitude on this one is misplaced. Fernandez may well be full of shit. I don't know and neither do you.

Like I said I like the traditional idea of the mafia, that is what I come here to learn about, it's the group I read books about, watch movies about. I'm fascinated by its exclusivity, it's ceremonies, traditions and symbolism. You mistake my disagreeing with your dismissal with support of the counter argument, but it's not. If I had to bet money, I would bet on you being right, as you usually are. I just don't think there is enough information to make a concrete judgement.



You're especially just that if you don't even have the mystery of the mafia's ritualistic traditions. Almost all criminal gangs manufacture some form of "higher purpose" bond usually based around the Spock theory of the group essentially being more important than the individual and therefore the individual must sacrifice for the group's "greater good" and those that do just that are propped up as examples to be followed, celebrated as 'heroes'.

i.e. "he's a stand up guy" because he did his time without ratting on his pals.

It wouldn't have surprised me if Rizzuto asked them to go along with Joe Bravo in Sicily. He proved he had contacts there as he was wanted for bid rigging or whatever it was with the bridge that was supposed to have been built. Bravo proved even in the taps that he had not went to see Rizzuto since he was out, so chances are he was on the hit list from the beginning. Sounds like Rizzuto gave him one final chance when they had the Cuba meeting but once again he refused to see Vito and that was it.

As for him being made, I don't believe it and I think Cabrini nailed it with the Jimmy Burke reference. Him and Desjardins both brought in a ton of money so of course they had some power. Rizzuto showed both of them respect like he was known to do with everyone no matter their color or background. If you could make money and be loyal (at the time he was out anyways) he had a spot for you. So of course he would act like they were made, they more than likely brought more in than any others as their drug record proves that they were moving lots of drugs. So I don't doubt Joe Bravo thought he was made because Rizzuto "acted" like he was made. So I could easily see him becoming confused.

We also must remember if the two brothers that killed Joe Bravo that if they were not already warned about Joe Bravo and told to go along with him, chances are they knew he could make money due to his drug connects. He might not have had any choice but to try and brag about it to get contacts in Sicily himself, who really knows?

Ooh, that was a confusing post I made, I was replying to the question of ndrangheta moving into New York, I know the Rizzutos ties with New York were severed with Georges murder...

This was the post, by miklo asking about ndrangheta in New York...

Good point, it was speculation on my part..

That's pretty much what I think too Sinatra, that they needed the connects, so they tolerated the guy, and only because of his relationship to Vito.
Once he started blowing Vito off, like, it's ironic, Vito likely was keeping him alive....

There were three killers of Fernandez, the Scaduto brothers and the Carbone character, a cousin. I think one cousin was used as an extra shooter and he's the one who flipped. Pietro Scaduto was one of the shooters, both he and Carbone (The other shooter) were from Toronto and were former bodyguards of Michele Modica. So they knew of Fernandez, and Scaduto was the one Fernandez hooked up with upon his arrival to Bagheria. The guy wasn't dealing with regular soldiers here, he reportedly was among those at a "table" which consisted of Bagheria's Mafia bosses. He'd been met early on during his stay in Sicily by two Canadian mobsters, Dani Ranieri & Dominic Fabiani. It wasn't just his ability to earn tha t made these Sicilians comfortable with dealing with him, while he's claiming to be one of them, it was also the Rizzuto name, which still held weight in Sicily. The guy was caught on wiretap, telling bosses to "show some respect, I sit at the right hand of God. That's how close I am. The boss makes the rules", in direct response to being questioned because of his ethnicity and told "there are rules"...And they could do little about it, because he still had Vito backing him.

Keep in mind, Fernandez was alive and thriving, business wise while in Sicily prior to Rizzuto being released and making amends with those who destroyed his family. The order didn't come from any Sicilian boss, despite Fernandez' supposed middle finger to tradition. It came from Montreal, only after he was ducking Rizzuto and refusing to meet and blurring the lines of his allegiance. That right there is enough to consider Fernandez' claim as an actual possibility. That's all I'm saying.

Would you say that Al Capone was only a high level associate because he had no formal ceremony?

No but the Chicago mob at that time, and probably up through the 1960's, was a unique case. But Capone was at least Italian. So you really can't draw a parallel between him and Fernandez.

I'm not drawing parallels between Capone and Fernandez, the point I'm trying to make is being made through a ceremony is an outdated idea and it only really matters if you're a small time mobster. If you're a high ranked member of a known Italian led organization and you come from an Italian background then you'd be treated like a made guy by other mafia families whether you went through a LCN ceremony or not.

Someone mentioned that guys like Fernandez and Desjardins only mattered in their mafia circles, not outside. I completely agree with that, but high ranked Italian mobsters in Montreal/Toronto/Hamilton are recognized as made men regardless of whether they're LCN or not.

Historically when Cotroni created the family it had no LCN background, it was just an Italian organized crime family that controlled the city of Montreal. Also being from Calabria I don't think they had any 'Ndrangheta connections either. So it was not until the Bonnanos came up that they entered the American LCN circles.

Overall I consider them a mafia family with LCN elements and connections, but not exactly LCN themselves since they're no longer part of the Bonnano family. They also had Sicilian LCN connections through the Rizzutos. I'm not sure if Nick Rizzuto Sr was a made guy back in Sicily but he did marry a woman who came from a mafia family.

You may think it's an outdated idea but there's no evidence the Mafia thinks so. Even today, high-ranking associates (Italian or otherwise) who have the same clout as a made guy are the exception to the rule. I'm not sure who you're referring to in Canada but, when it comes to being a made guy, that typically means he has gone through some form of formal initiation. Even the rare associates that have the clout of a made guy are still recognized as such. Not made members.

Which mafia are we talking about here? I doubt every single family goes through with such ceremonies, sometimes a simple gathering and dinner is enough to consider someone a made man (I think that's what the Outfit does).

Anyways, someone mentioned that the true made men in Canadian mob families are Italians that are either related by blood or marriage, if you're neither then you're not really significant enough to be considered outside your family circle unless your boss decides that you are. This also explains why the Canadian mafia families in general are smaller in numbers when it comes to the number of significant members, this is specially the case among the 'Ndrangheta clans of Toronto and the smaller families of Hamilton.

Canada's mob scene is a lot more complex, diverse, and sophisticated than the US scene, so it's really hard to get a clear picture on how the families are set up and whether they have ceremonies or not.

It came out during the Family Secrets case that the Outfit had been using the same blood and fire ceremony as other families. It may have been different in the earlier years though. But, again, they were the exception to the rule and eventually conformed.

Even if what you're saying about Italian OC in Canada is true, it doesn't apply to Fernandez.

You're really not going to admit that you can't know for certain, are ya, Ivy? hehe. Been a very interesting thread though. Think we'll ever get a definitive answer on Fernandez? I keep hoping somebody close to the Rizzuto's flips so we can get some actual information.

I had a crazy holiday so I've not had time to follow any new developments the last couple weeks, but true to canadian form, there probably hasn't much in the way of news anyway.

Cavalieres law office was bugged. The same law offices Leonardo Rizzuto & Stefano Sollecito used to discuss and plan business, foolishly believing that LE had no right to place bugs in lawyer offices. So who knows, perhaps they spoke about some of this stuff and just like it did with John Stanfa, the transcripts may become part of the trial proceedings and we may truly find out some interesting things.

If by certain you mean 100%, no. But I'd say the chances of Fernandez just bullshitting is at least 95%, all things considered. Frankly, I'm surprised at how plausible some of you guys think it is.

Its not just because of Fernandez words though. While Rizzuto backed him at least, Fernandez was able to sit with bosses in Bagheria, Sicily. Also if we're judging by history, Montreal has always allowed its non-Italian "associates" to get farther than most other families would. For example, Joseph Petrula. Old Cotroni, Montreal Mob guy from like the 50's. He and Luigi Greco were sent by Carmine Galante himself to meet with Lucky Luciano himself, in Italy. Petrula was 100% Ukranian. He ended up being killed after RCMP conducted a raid on his apartment and a ledger book was found which showed how much money the Montreal decina had spent to discredit an opposing politician and disrupt voting during elections. The guy disappeared after Galante and others felt he'd crack and begin to talk. Rumor has it Luigi Greco put his body through a meat grinder in one of his Pizzeria's.

You could say the same thing about the Outfit in past decades. Non-Italians reached high levels. Even in NY some non-Italians had a lot of clout. But none of these guys, who had no Italian blood, ever went through a ceremony or were considered made. Not one. I see no convincing evidence that Fernandez was any exception.

Nicolo and Vito Rizzuto were made members of the Bonanno Family with other top Montreal wiseguys.

I think it comes down to Vito and his father being made members of the Bonanno's, so yes they WERE LCN. Right now? Who knows, most of the Bonanno Montreal crew are dead or inactive.

http://www.canada.com/mobile/iphone/story.html?id=16a094b4-2b20-4de4-86dd-34d85d974c32


According to made Bonanno member, Vito took the initiative to separate his family from the Bonannos. Don't know how you can come to such a definitive conclusion,Peccatore. Let me guess, is it based on "tradition" and "what is Cosa Nostra"?



Nicolo was also a made member of the Manno Family in his hometown of Cattolica Eraclea. He notoriously bucked the rules, it's the major reason why Paolo Violi wanted him dead. And Nicolo probably would've not been alive for so long if it wasn't for the respect he commanded from Sicilians back in Italy, like Giuseppe Settecasi who stepped in for him during his beef with Violi. Like I said on The Black Hand. I dont think its a coinicidence that there were NO Bonanno members who were named or indicted in the many large scale investigations of the Rizzutos and the Montreal Mafia, like Project Colisee, and just recent Project Mastiff & Project Magot. The Rizzutos are known to have investments in Cuba, Saudi.Arabia, Coast Of Africa, The DR, and Italy and the NY Bonannos had NO parts of these investments.


Vito was named in an Italian investigation involved with a bridge connecting Sicily and Naples. There also wasn't one Bonanno name mentioned in that either.

Key point you made there Sinatra, Nicola was made in ITALY, so if Violi wanted to hit him, he needed permission, permission he was never gonna get, one cause he was Calabrian, two Sicily needed he drug pipeline, and the Rizzutos were the point men..

The Messina brigde, is a pity that got cancelled because of alleged mafia influence, they have been planning to build that bridge ever since the Roman empire..

I think you meant to say Calabria instead of Naples, otherwise would be a very long bridge ;-)