Can someone clear this up, do they actually have an LCN structure.....boss, underboss, consig, capo's etc or do they just not give shit

Their hierarchy is still unclear, but some evidence suggests that they are more informal than LCN. They may not even have an induction ceremony, and supposedly they make non-Italians. They were undoubtedly LCN in their roots, but it's hard to say how much of that still exists this long into Rizzuto control.

Other factions may be more traditional, but I really don't know.

Other than Fernandez bragging about it on the phone, I'm not sure there was any evidence he, Desjardins, or any other non-Italian was actually made.

That's why I said supposedly, but it's worth pointing out as a possible difference.

I would say they are more like The Outfit in terms of non Sicilians being in power. I don't think they made any non Italian though. Yes Joe Bravo and Raynald were high up in the family, but I don't believe they were made.

Yes I would say they are like the Outfit, which had non-Italians like Guzik, Patrick, Hump, Schweihs, and Alex who were just as powerful as most of their crew bosses. It was also said that the Outfit didn't have a traditional LCN structure. They didn't have a making ceremony until Aiuppa.

In the simple sense, yes. Their a Mafia family. However, they don't follow typical LCN rules or protocol.

So since Aiuppa died were there no more making ceremonies??

Yes I think that the Rizzutos are more informal and so Joe Bravo thinked that was made. The power of Nick sr and vito was to make strong alliance with everithing Irish,bikers Even black gangs. So when vito go away and Nick jr was killed everithing said "fuck the italians. Now we rules on the streets " and so began the war.

Half a cosa nostra then......

More a mafia dinasty where the power go to father Nick sr to the son vito and so on ( leonardo "the italian tom Hagen" is the boss), the old men near the boss replay the capos and Even non Italians have power like informal capos.For some people the fact that rizzuto "made" non Italian was his ruin.

Still crazy the father got whacked at like 90 ytd old at his dinner table that's some real personal shit it had to be the kid or grandkids of that guy violi that the rizzutto killed back in the day even killed him like the brother. Sniper eating supper.

They would probably be considered LCN, but I'm not sure if they ever called it that. Just "friends" who got together and made money by organizing illegal rackets. They did have a leader and crew bosses, but I'm not sure if they ever had that traditional boss, underboss, consigliere structure. I don't think that ever mattered to them. It was about making money. The media loves to use those fancy titles.

Ralph I think that Nick sr and vito if don't never had the title of boss however the other criminals know that they was the chiefs of italians and must make deal with them. Maybe there are factions that rules specific rackets. The core business was the coke so Nick sr and vito are the chief and what they said was the orders.

You're probably correct. People tend to follow those who possess leadership abilities and control the money. It probably helped that Vito was a soldier with the Bonannos. Vito and Nick had a lot of things going for them.

For this fact I think that after the banana war in the 60s Nick sr managed to get indipendent from ny and for this reasons his family wasn't too big maybe 50 or maybe less more but mantenead a tie with bonannos until massimo ordered ro kill sciandra in 1999.

Really don't know what else you'd call them. Seems pretty clear they are LCN to me.

To me as well.

I think what you guys are seeing and describing are the after effects of an organization that has been entrenched in narcotics trafficking for decades. Over time what became most important to the organization was narcotics supply, transportation, and distribution, and the laundering and reinvestment of those funds.
Giuseppe Settacasi was boss of the Agrigento mafia, he was partners with Luciano. Lucky was concerned with business, not really all the ritualistic symbolism and militaristic territorial control. Consider that influence he must have had on the succeeding generation of Mafiosi from there. Think about Luciano doing business with Jewish gangsters, guys like Owney Madden, Irish and Sottish whiskey merchants, Cuban racketeers in the Caribbean, Bumpy Johnson, French Corsicans. Then look at Vito with Wooley the street gang boss, Boucher the biker gang boss, French Canadian gangsters, Spanish gangsters, Irish West End mob, Asian Big Circle boys, Lebanese hashish merchants, Colombian and Cuban cocaine suppliers, Swiss bankers. Your ability to procure narcotics, transport narcotics, distribute narcotics, these things start to take precedence over where you were born in Sicily, or how many made men you have under you.
Drugs change everything; They don't recognize established hierarchies or whatever specialized expertise you might have like experience or whatever. Where you normally have the boss, underboss and consigliere, it becomes, the guy with the connect, the guy with the distribution, and the guy that can put both of em together, these become the guys calling the shots. These "Sollozos" wield incredible influence in families ba cause narcotics can actually support an entire family. "I've got 20 years experience in labor racketeering", " Well, I got 50 keys, we'll make 25 million", see what I mean? It's like all that shit goes out the window.

Look at this mafia heroin ring;

At the end of August, or early September 1956, Cantellops attended a meeting at the home of Rocco Mazzie, at 2332 Seymour Avenue in the Bronx, where plans were made for extending the distribution of narcotics.

Earlier, the same evening Cantellops drove to the same German restaurant on East 86th Street with Joe Evola, Ormento, Carmine Galante and Andimo Pappadio, a capo in the Luchese family, and a man close to John Ormento and Genovese.

Galante was with the Bonanno family, along with Evola; Ormento, and Pappadio were with the Luchese’s, and Mazzie was tied into the crime family known to-day as the Gambino family, run then, by Albert Anastasia.
Couple things, notice how they overlook the Puerto Rican Cantellops, because of his perceived ability to open up a distribution center in the Bronx, he woulda been like "Carlito Brigante" basically. Also notice how the traditional family lines and hierarchies are blurred. Imagine a beef happens, what boss decides what? Is it going to be the family boss, or the guy controlling the drugs, or drug territory calling the shots? Here you have soldiers, capos, under bosses, it's like they are part of a separate organization, within the mafia. That why Carlo felt compelled to take down ALL these guys...

Here is an excerpt from The Sixth Family, illustrating what I mean....
https://books.google.com/books?id=0ZygQJ...ers&f=false
It's why Nick Rizzuto COULDNT take orders from Violi. Besides the Sicilian, Calabrian divide, he has his own connect, his own contacts to get the product in the states, his own crew to move it, and his own laundry service. He must have been like, " What the fuck do I even need the guy for, to take a cut off the top, cause what, he's Boss?" Fuck that!!
It's what got George from Canada killed. This " Sollozo" type, because he was controlling the flow of drugs into New York, started to feel like he could tell the boss things about running the family, and clearly he thought that because he was such a valuable earner, was untouchable. Also, as,it states in the Sixth family, he probably didn't see himself as a Bonnano soldier, more like Vito's representative in New York.
Here is another excerpt, from Gommorah, on another Italian crime family that operates more like a cartel than a traditional Costa Nostra clan, also it shows that all these organizations require is loyalty, and this is provided by family, also shows how things like experience, prestige, and age are impediments to the operation..
“The sums Di Lauro’s managers turned over were still astronomical, but getting progressively smaller. Over the long term this sort of practice would strengthen some and weaken others, and eventually—as soon as a group gathered enough organizational and military force—they’d give Paolo Di Lauro the shove. Not just some stiff competition, but the big shove, the one you don’t get up from, a shove with lead in it. So Cosimo ordered everyone be put on salary. He wanted them all to depend on him. The decision ran counter to his father’s ways, but it was necessary to protect his business, his authority, his family. No more loose ties, with everyone free to decide how much to invest, what type and quality of drugs to put on the market. No more liberty and autonomy within a multilevel corporation. Salaried employees. Some were saying 50,000 euros a month. An extraordinary amount, but a salary nevertheless. A subordinate role. The end of the entrepreneurial dream, replaced by a manager’s job. And the administrative revolution didn’t end there. Informants testify that Cosimo also imposed a generational turnover. Immediate rejuvenation”
“management, so no executives over thirty. The market doesn’t make concessions for the appreciation of human assets. It doesn’t make concessions for anything. You have to hustle to win. Every bond, be it affection, law, rights, love, emotion, or religion, is a concession to the competition, a stumbling block to success. There’s room for all that, but economic victory and control come first. Old bosses used to be listened to out of respect, even when they proposed outdated ideas or gave ineffective orders; their decisions counted precisely because of their age. And age was what posed the biggest threat to the leadership of Paolo Di Lauro’s offspring.
So now they on the same level; no appealing to a mythical past, previous experience, or respect owed. Everyone had to get by on the strength of his proposals, management abilities, or charisma.”
So basically, the only "made". Guys that seem to matter, are the blood relations, and they have been acting like a cartel for so long, that the organization both in structure and values, reflects this reality, any thoughts?

I would say that's a pretty spot-on analysis Cabrini..

Cabrini Green has just smashed it there.....24 caret gold explanation.

Yeah except it would obviously be possible for Rizzuto to have a non-Italian in a high level position without bucking tradition and actually making him. A guy's made status is only valuable if it's recognized. It doesn't matter how powerful Rizzuto was. Other mafiosi would be under no obligation to recognize a non-Italian being made.

Juan Fernandez told other made guys in Sicily that both he and Raynald Desjardins were formally made by Rizzuto. In Fernandez' case, he claimed that that gave him added recognition and entitled other Sicilian Mafiosi to do business with him, which they did. They voiced surprise and then went on to deal with the guy until he was killed. And he wasn't killed for that claim either, he was killed for that claim, while feigning loyalty to Rizzuto but also dealing with his enemies and avoiding him when called upon.

I hear ya, just understand that the reverse is true as well, ask Montagna after his beef with the Frenchman.....

Also Ivey, I would counter that a made guy is only valuable if he's bringing something to the table;
It's never really been, we've got a multi-million dollar operation, let's make this guy and give it to him, it's he's got a million dollar operation, let's make him, so we can take a piece.
It's like Sinatra said, Joe Bravo wasn't hit because he wanted a seat at the table, he was hit cause Rizzuto ordered it.
Difference between him and the Frenchman, is he didn't step outside of Montreal, that was a mistake.
I would also say it's an example of the dynamics I outlined above, Sinatra stated that the Sicilians continued to business with him, I'm not surprised at all, if you understand the state of Cosa Nostra at this time. If I'm not mistaken, this is a period of decline for the Sicilian mafia. This is the period where they are falling over themselves to business with Frank Cali, where their dominant position in the drug trade has been weakened by the crackdowns as a result of the 80s bombings, but also their inability to adapt to the cocaine market, which the Calabrians and Napels gangsters beat them to. This is a Sicilian mafia that is having trouble with protection money, which was always their bread and butter, along with the citrus market, land estates, and construction and such....
So it could very well be that they would have, maybe even WANTED t ack Joe Bravo, but they would sacrificing a steady drug supply, at a time when they really needed it.
It's very possible Joe Bravo was hit because he was making TOO many inroads in Sicily.
I'm really am of the opinion that they don't really have making ceremonies, they have MARRIAGES. Sixth family talk about the Commisos, Manno, Rizzuto, LoPresti, Scascia, CAruana-[BadWord], if your name isn't one of these family ties, you better have a drug connect, control a market, or something useful to these people...

While I'm aware of the decline of the Sicilian Mafia in recent times, I don't think that would cause them to throw all rules and tradition out the window and recognize a non-Italian as being made. Nor would that even be necessary to do business with him.

If it were true, it would be a landmark first. Even the American mob, with its much greater decline and shrinking membership, has never made a guy with no Italian blood. The only possibility for a precedent is the Scottish guy who may have been made into the Camorra. But, in addition to the Camorra having always been more porous and looser with the rules, I'm not sure that was ever 100% verified.

But out of nowhere, and without any need to do so, Vito Rizzuto is going to take it upon himself to make a non-Italian? Especially considering how insular and clannish the Rizzutos and their inner circle were said to be? C'mon.

Bottom line, I'd have to see more proof than Fernandez talking on the phone to believe it.

Do you think the Ndrangheta can settle in the United States or the American mafia is not there or is not there, and in a near future compete with American Mafia families, or there are the install?

Again, you put way too much emphasis on made guys. You gotta understand Ivey, Rizzuto probably "made" these guys, as like a placating gesture, to let them think they were on the same level, but trust, no one is on the same level as the blood relations. I see these guys being made like a " Joe Watts" or "Jimmy Burke.
Not really made, but treated like made guys, but only within their family. I get the impression that if these two guys were in Montreal, they would be indistinguishable from a powerful Italian mafia capo. But they would have to recognize the geographic limitations, they could act like that in Montreal,nowhere else. It's like the gang boss Wooley going into an Italian Montreal neighborhood and expecting to be treated like a member.
And again, I don't think they recognized him as a made guy, more like they just overlooked it for the sake of business, kinda like they did with the Inzirillos, these guys needed CONNECTS Ivey, more than they need a few more made guys.
Like Ivey, I used to think all Costa Nostra is Sicilian right? Well here is ANOTHER family bound by blood, operating like a cartel, I was shocked when I first read about em...shows the power of drugs on the power structure....
“The Nuvolettas are the only family outside Sicily that sits in the cupola, the high command of Cosa Nostra. Not simply allies or affiliates, they are one of the most powerful groups in the bosom of the Mafia, with structural ties to the Corleones. So powerful—according to pentito Giovanni Brusca—that when in the late 1990s the Sicilians decided to plant bombs all over Italy, they asked the Marano clan for advice and cooperation. The Nuvolettas thought the idea was crazy, a strategy that had more to do with political favors than military results. They refused to participate in the attacks or provide logistical support, a refusal expressed without any hint of reprisal. Totò Riina personally implored the boss Angelo Nuvoletta to corrupt the judges in his first mass trial, but here too the Marano clan refused to help the military wing of the Corleone family. During the feuds within La Nuova Famiglia, after their victory over Cutolo, the Nuvolettas sent for Giovanni Brusca, the boss of San Giovanni Jato and the murderer of Judge Giovanni Falcone.* They wanted Brusca to eliminate five people in Campania and dissolve two of them in acid. They called him the way you would call a plumber”

Excerpt From: Roberto Saviano & Virginia Jewiss. “Gomorrah.” Picador, 2007. iBooks.
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You gotta remember, this is all about control, if it makes these guys easier to control by letting them think they are made, ehhhhh?

Actually, much better example, compare Fernandez and the Frenchman to like Apples McIntosh, I think that's his name? Carmine Persicos bodyguard.
I've heard it said that he woulda been made in a minute if he were Italian, but it didn't stop Carmine from treating him like a high-level guy. I'm thinking the relationship was similar to that one...

That's actually why I found the New York arrest so interesting, for decades they operated out of Montreal, but they felt compelled to set up an outpost in New York.
It's,why I asked a while back, are they losing power? Do they still maintain their position as prime narcotics importers with the calabrians and Mexicans being what they are?
I think Vito was the reason it held together like it did, and like someone said above,after he went away, everyone started to calculate where their loyalty and interest lie...
Also Ivey understand, I agree on Fernandez, like I said I think he was just crazy. I don't think Dejardins woulda showed up in Sicily acting like a made guy. Fuck he probably can't even do that in Corsica lol....
But I do think Vito placated them with that, I don't think he ever expected the guy to go to Sicily. Like I could see Vito having to hit him, to save face from having "made" a Spaniard, it couldn't really have helped his rep at a time when he was at war, and trying Marshall his forces, and identify all his enemies.