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Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? #868042
11/27/15 03:09 PM
11/27/15 03:09 PM
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Ok so first off I apologize if I'm beating a dead horse with this topic . I know there's an Irish OC thread , but it seems to mainly focus on Ireland , so that's why I thought I'd make a thread for Irish American gangsters .

Anyways my question is does the Irish Mob still exist in America ? I know that the K&A gang is listed as active , however they don't seem to be much of a mob group .

If it still exists then what places is it active in ? What are its main rackets ? How influential are they ?

Thanks ahead of time .

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868045
11/27/15 03:30 PM
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I don't think anything such as an "Irish mob" exists in the US in an official form. Crooks of Irish descent? Sure. But an Irish-American version of the Mafia? Not anymore, if there ever existed one.

Irish OC in Europe...that's a different story.

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868047
11/27/15 03:52 PM
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Nope.

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868053
11/27/15 04:19 PM
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nope. they just work hand in hand with the mob around new england.

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: pmac] #868056
11/27/15 04:30 PM
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Would south Boston still have guys from the Bulger era knocking about?

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868058
11/27/15 04:34 PM
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I'm sure there are some Irish criminals, but no real organized Irish mob

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868062
11/27/15 05:08 PM
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I would bet there are some groups though. especially in Boston where there may be a guy leading the group too. Almost like a small independent crew but who knows?? Like the florist in the movie The Town lol

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: Homers77] #868063
11/27/15 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Homers77
I would bet there are some groups though. especially in Boston where there may be a guy leading the group too. Almost like a small independent crew but who knows?? Like the florist in the movie The Town lol




"You're gonna do this for me...or I'm gonna clip your nuts!"

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: Homers77] #868065
11/27/15 05:21 PM
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Looking back through oc history was there ever really a proper organised Irish Mob in USA? In New York it seemed to be just different groups of violent gangs fighting with each other for control of the early rackets. When the Commission was formed I believe Lucky Luciano tried to set them up as a single entity with his friend Owney Madden as their 'official boss'. I imagine there was too much bad blood and inter gang rivalry for this to ever work out. In later decades guys like Mickey Spillane had their own crews and didn't try and bring them all under the same banner

In Chicago you could argue that the North Side Gang under Dean O'Banion were the Irish Mob, although they certainly weren't exclusively Irish when it came to membership, especially after O'Banion's death.

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868120
11/28/15 06:31 AM
11/28/15 06:31 AM
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In Boston the winter hill gang is still on the streets,the K&A gang in philly and some people said that the Westies made a come back in hell's kitchen; for sure there in the US some gangs composed by Irish american.

Last edited by furio_from_naples; 11/28/15 06:33 AM.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: furio_from_naples] #868145
11/28/15 11:10 AM
11/28/15 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted By: furio_from_naples
In Boston the winter hill gang is still on the streets,the K&A gang in philly and some people said that the Westies made a come back in hell's kitchen; for sure there in the US some gangs composed by Irish american.


You obviously haven't seen Hells Kitchen at all recently, there is NO WAY the Westies are running around Hell's Kitchen in 2015

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: DanteMoltisanti] #868147
11/28/15 11:33 AM
11/28/15 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted By: DanteMoltisanti
Originally Posted By: furio_from_naples
In Boston the winter hill gang is still on the streets,the K&A gang in philly and some people said that the Westies made a come back in hell's kitchen; for sure there in the US some gangs composed by Irish american.


You obviously haven't seen Hells Kitchen at all recently, there is NO WAY the Westies are running around Hell's Kitchen in 2015


I've heard that place has more Starbucks shops than the whole of Belgium has, or so to speak. So yeah, little chance of any major kind of blue collar OC going around over there.

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868257
11/29/15 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: 2a
Anyways my question is does the Irish Mob still exist in America ? I know that the K&A gang is listed as active , however they don't seem to be much of a mob group .

If it still exists then what places is it active in ? What are its main rackets ? How influential are they ?


I don't know why you don't classify the K&A Gang as a "mob group." They made a ton of money through crime while working together. What more do you need? They don't exist anymore though.

That said there has never been an Irish Mob in the United States. There has never been a group of exclusively Irish or Irish American criminals in the United States. There have been groups of predominately Irish criminals but never one that Irishness was the uniting factor.

Except for, alledgedly, the original Aryan Brotherhood. But that's certainly not the case anymore.

Last edited by BigRed; 11/29/15 03:02 PM.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: BigRed] #868258
11/29/15 03:04 PM
11/29/15 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted By: BigRed
Originally Posted By: 2a
Anyways my question is does the Irish Mob still exist in America ? I know that the K&A gang is listed as active , however they don't seem to be much of a mob group .

If it still exists then what places is it active in ? What are its main rackets ? How influential are they ?


I don't know why you don't classify the K&A Gang as a "mob group." They made a ton of money through crime while working together. What more do you need?

That said there has never been an Irish Mob in the United States. There has never been a group of exclusively Irish or Irish American criminals in the United States. There have been groups of predominately Irish criminals but never one that Irishness was the uniting factor.

Except for, alledgedly, the original Aryan Brotherhood. But that's certainly not the case anymore.


Never understood that misconception. Irish people traditionally emigrated to cities like Boston, New York and Chicago.

The segment of people that the Aryan Brotherhood attract have traditionally been WASPS from "hick" states with predominantly English, Scotch Irish, Scottish and German origins.



I invoke my right under the 5th amendment of the United States constitution and decline to answer the question.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: Moe_Tilden] #868282
11/29/15 05:09 PM
11/29/15 05:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Moe_Tilden
Originally Posted By: BigRed
Originally Posted By: 2a
Anyways my question is does the Irish Mob still exist in America ? I know that the K&A gang is listed as active , however they don't seem to be much of a mob group .

If it still exists then what places is it active in ? What are its main rackets ? How influential are they ?


I don't know why you don't classify the K&A Gang as a "mob group." They made a ton of money through crime while working together. What more do you need?

That said there has never been an Irish Mob in the United States. There has never been a group of exclusively Irish or Irish American criminals in the United States. There have been groups of predominately Irish criminals but never one that Irishness was the uniting factor.

Except for, alledgedly, the original Aryan Brotherhood. But that's certainly not the case anymore.


Never understood that misconception. Irish people traditionally emigrated to cities like Boston, New York and Chicago.

The segment of people that the Aryan Brotherhood attract have traditionally been WASPS from "hick" states with predominantly English, Scotch Irish, Scottish and German origins.



I really think that supposed "Irish" origin of the Aryan Brotherhood is more of an urban legend. The vast majority of the AB members, be it California or the Deep South, have always seemed to be of a more or less Southern WASP background.

And I don't know what to believe on them. One OC episode I've watched that was about the Aryan Brotherhood made them out to be the hillbilly/redneck version of the Mafia that made millions of narcotics (they were even telling in that episode that they had private helicopters that smuggled cocaine, heroin and weapons into the country), extortion and illegal gambling, both inside and outside the prison. It all seemed WAY overstated.

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: Moe_Tilden] #868283
11/29/15 05:21 PM
11/29/15 05:21 PM
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Despite the misconceptions the main Irish group was the Ulster Scots and also the Ulster English who settled all over the US including NY.

The difference was they assimilated into the society they moved to and created very few problems.

The smaller less educated Irish group clung together and tried to create their own ghettos and then where integrated into American society eventually


British is best....
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: British] #868285
11/29/15 05:57 PM
11/29/15 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Despite the misconceptions the main Irish group was the Ulster Scots and also the Ulster English who settled all over the US including NY.

The difference was they assimilated into the society they moved to and created very few problems.

The smaller less educated Irish group clung together and tried to create their own ghettos and then where integrated into American society eventually


Yeah the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Brotherhood, banjo playing kid from Deliverance, Appalachian inbreds and good ol' racist bubbas from the South contributed more to American society than the Irish who built the damn country.

Get out of here you buffoon. lol


I invoke my right under the 5th amendment of the United States constitution and decline to answer the question.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: Moe_Tilden] #868287
11/29/15 06:27 PM
11/29/15 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Moe_Tilden
Quote:
Despite the misconceptions the main Irish group was the Ulster Scots and also the Ulster English who settled all over the US including NY.

The difference was they assimilated into the society they moved to and created very few problems.

The smaller less educated Irish group clung together and tried to create their own ghettos and then where integrated into American society eventually


Yeah the Ku Klux Klan, Aryan Brotherhood, banjo playing kid from Deliverance, Appalachian inbreds and good ol' racist bubbas from the South contributed more to American society than the Irish who built the damn country.

Get out of here you buffoon. lol


The Northeast doesn't equal the entire USA. The Irish were important in the formation of the USA we currently know, but on the other hand so were a myriad of other ancestries (and for the record, the English and Scotch-Irish didn't solely settle in the South).
I'm not an American citizen, so I probably should keep stumm on this topic. But there's no need to call someone names, especially if your own historical knowledge seems to be filled with bias.

Last edited by TheKillingJoke; 11/29/15 06:43 PM.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868293
11/29/15 07:32 PM
11/29/15 07:32 PM
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British's comment was extremely derogatory and refers to an offensive caricature and stereotype of Irish people prevalent throughout the 1800's.

I don't even know where to begin TBH with the Aryan Brotherhood being predominantly Irish seeing as the Irish are on their shitlist along with blacks and Jews.

Some amount of idiocy being spouted here and it deserves to be called up on.

If I was making race baiting comments about British people I would expect to be called on it too.

British should stick to what he's good at. Mythologising the Kray Twins and watching Jeremy Kyle.

Edit: And as for calling him a buffoon?

Pontificates about the intelligence of an entire nation of people while coming out with this exceptional feat of intellect:

The smaller less educated Irish group clung together and tried to create their own ghettos and then where integrated into American society eventually

He's calling other people uneducated? lol


I invoke my right under the 5th amendment of the United States constitution and decline to answer the question.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868299
11/29/15 08:12 PM
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Well, you did use a derogatory term yourself: hick.

Not defending British's really stupid post though.

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868307
11/29/15 09:12 PM
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I was trying to refute what he said about Irish Americans not integrating into American society.

The very people who have historically resisted attempts to integrate with ethnic groups be they Irish, Italian, Black, Jewish, Chinese or Native Americans have been WASP Americans from English, Scottish, Scotch Irish or Germanic backgrounds.

The Irish had no problems integrating and could coexist with Italians and Blacks.

It's British's ancestors who have continuously had problems integrating with and accepting other cultures, so his point was asinine - just like his grammar.

Where do people like Fred Phelps, David Duke, the average klanner and Aryan trace their lineage to?


I invoke my right under the 5th amendment of the United States constitution and decline to answer the question.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: Moe_Tilden] #868320
11/29/15 10:12 PM
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Quote:
I don't even know where to begin TBH with the Aryan Brotherhood being predominantly Irish seeing as the Irish are on their shitlist along with blacks and Jews.


Members of the original Aryan Brotherhood had to be of at least partial Irish descent to be inducted. That information is readily available if you Google.

As for your opinion of poor tired Irish Catholics huddling in Northeastern cities far from California and the AB strong holds that is old thinking, like from the 80s. 1880s that is. Irish Catholics bow to nobody when it comes to incidences of racist, hickish behavior. I guess that's part of assimilating and succeeding and we certainly have had it in spades in our lifetimes!

Last edited by BigRed; 11/29/15 10:12 PM.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: Moe_Tilden] #868427
11/30/15 08:47 PM
11/30/15 08:47 PM
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Yet it's perfectly fine for you to claim that all people of a WASP background are hateful and unable to coexist with other races?

There's a certain amount of them that have caused (and probably still cause) their share of problems: racism, white trash criminality...among others. But they should in no way be a standard-bearer for the millions of people who just happen to be from a WASP background. Because if you go back in time, somewhere down the line you'll find that a certain amount of the Italians and Irish weren't exactly fond of the African-Americans either.

Of course, British his post wasn't accurate at all in describing the Irish Catholic community as a whole. But on the other hand, there's no denying that a small amount of the Irish still were stuck in more impoverished communities where SOME (not all) chose a life of crime. Who gave us that band of psychopaths known as The Westies that carried around dismembered body parts as if it were a bag of groceries? Or that Southie stool pigeon who allegedly strangled hookers for a pastime activity? Not the WASP's.

There's nothing wrong with calling a bunch of redneck dope dealers and killers such as the Aryan Brotherhood "hicks". Because it's their behavior that makes them to be a "redneck", "hick", "white trash"...whatever. But using any of those names as a blanket for an entire group of people just because they happen to be from Mississippi or Alabama, is just as derogatory and offensive as saying the Irish clung together in crime- and drug-infested shithole ghettos.

And making it seem as if it were just the Irish who built the entire country, isn't accurate either. Because (now we're stereotyping anyway) Fergus, Carmine, Billy Bob, Tyrone, Hyman and Carlos all had their hands in the creation and development of the country.

Last edited by TheKillingJoke; 12/01/15 06:28 AM.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: furio_from_naples] #868559
12/02/15 09:12 AM
12/02/15 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted By: furio_from_naples
In Boston the winter hill gang is still on the streets,the K&A gang in philly and some people said that the Westies made a come back in hell's kitchen; for sure there in the US some gangs composed by Irish american.



I thought the Winter Hill Gang was pretty multi ethnic as opposed to Irish American though . Is there any present day information on the K&A Gang ? Don't they have non Irish American members too as well ?

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: BigRed] #868560
12/02/15 09:21 AM
12/02/15 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted By: BigRed
Originally Posted By: 2a
Anyways my question is does the Irish Mob still exist in America ? I know that the K&A gang is listed as active , however they don't seem to be much of a mob group .

If it still exists then what places is it active in ? What are its main rackets ? How influential are they ?


I don't know why you don't classify the K&A Gang as a "mob group." They made a ton of money through crime while working together. What more do you need? They don't exist anymore though.

That said there has never been an Irish Mob in the United States. There has never been a group of exclusively Irish or Irish American criminals in the United States. There have been groups of predominately Irish criminals but never one that Irishness was the uniting factor.

Except for, alledgedly, the original Aryan Brotherhood. But that's certainly not the case anymore.


Well I'm just going by what I've read about the K&A Gang . Based on that they started out as a loose affiliation of independent burglary crews and later morphed into a drug gang with no clear structure . I mean their wikipedia entry says they had a more hierarchical structure during their meth days , however it still isn't clear to me if they were more of an OC group or just a loosely affiliated band of crooks .

Anyways thanks for the info and feel free to correct me if you want .

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868561
12/02/15 10:11 AM
12/02/15 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted By: 2a
Originally Posted By: furio_from_naples
In Boston the winter hill gang is still on the streets,the K&A gang in philly and some people said that the Westies made a come back in hell's kitchen; for sure there in the US some gangs composed by Irish american.



I thought the Winter Hill Gang was pretty multi ethnic as opposed to Irish American though . Is there any present day information on the K&A Gang ? Don't they have non Irish American members too as well ?


I don't think the Winter Hill Gang has ever been a solely "Irish" gang. It was more a federation of crooks based in the Boston area who were not on the Mob's payroll.
There were guys of many different backgrounds in the group. Irish, but also Italian, English, Scottish, Jewish, Armenian and Polish.





Last edited by TheKillingJoke; 12/02/15 10:11 AM.
Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: TheKillingJoke] #868575
12/02/15 11:56 AM
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I found this interesting article by a writer from a southie project.


Busing & Whitey Bulger
To thrive, Bulger needed Southie united in a closed, paranoid, and conspiratorial culture of silence.
By Michael Patrick MacDonald

Busing was the best thing that ever happened to Whitey Bulger.

In the years leading up to the 1974 busing plan, my neighborhood—South Boston—was perceived as the bastion of white supremacy and privilege in Boston. After all, some of the city’s most powerful politicians were from South Boston, and the most egregious symbol of white supremacy in Boston, school committee member (later city councilor) Louise Day Hicks, was a resident of the affluent and beautiful shoreline of South Boston’s City Point. Although the reasoning behind the State Board of Education’s busing plan will forever remain a mystery, I have had to presume that this was the motivation for a plan that—disastrously—included busing students from predominantly black Roxbury to Irish-American South Boston and vice versa, even though both groups were desperately poor with desperately underfunded schools.

Among the rarely discussed facts about my neighborhood was that white South Boston High School had the highest number of students on welfare in any school, citywide. [1] The school mostly served the population of Southie’s three large housing projects and the “Lower End,” three contiguous census tracts that collectively held the highest concentration of white poverty in the United States, with 73 percent single-parent female-headed households and upwards of 40 percent unemployment rate among adult men. [2] In the years before busing, only 16 percent of students at white South Boston High school went on to college, and when they did, they were usually the first in their families to do so. [3] Former Boston NAACP President Ken Guskett has recently said that, during the battle for desegregation, while white students citywide received more funding per student ($450) than black students ($250 at the black schools in Roxbury)—“the South Boston kids got less than Roxbury.” [4]


This is the problem with looking at statistics only by race, rather than also looking at economics. Our powerful politicians and community spokespeople, who lived on the other side of Dorchester Heights, usually did not have kids at South Boston High; their kids went to Boston Latin or private or parochial schools. Clearly, there were two South Bostons. Clearly, there are white people and there are not-quite-white people. It’s too bad Judge W. Arthur Garrity, his advisors, and the State Board of Education never considered these realities when they went in for the takedown of Southie’s perceived power.

In my neighborhood, we always knew there were two Southies—and that while some people in Southie “knew people,” most of us had absolutely no connection to power. I knew the term “white n*****” applied to “project rats” like me and my neighbors, the very people who populated an already decrepit South Boston High School. But while busing divided the city of Boston, it united our neighborhood like never before. Our chants of Hell No We Won’t Go rose up in unison from the the grimy projects to the vinyl-sided row houses of the West Side to the hills of City Point. And united we jumped into the arms of career politicians whose popularity soared in a community that, rightly or wrongly, felt under siege. Our unified, loud, and sometimes violent resistance ended up benefiting Judge Garrity, whose all-white, very well-funded schools in elite Wellesley would never be considered “racially imbalanced,” a term reserved by law for schools that were more than 50 percent “minority.” Once Southie exploded, Garrity’s plan would appear justified to liberals all over the country. National news crews descended on the neighborhood to focus only on the scenes of inexcusable racist violence, without examining any of the equally important class manipulation at play in a plan that would send rightfully aggrieved African American students into a school that, in spite of its predominant complexion, was as bad if not worse than the one they came from. In essence, liberal Garrity and conservative Hicks were working very well together, for their own class interests that sacrificed South Boston and Roxbury families.

Sacrificed how? That us-against-them enmity that they and other leaders inspired from on high, which may have felt justified and righteous to some at the time, benefited James “Whitey” Bulger more than anyone. To thrive, Bulger needed Southie united in a closed, paranoid, and conspiratorial culture of silence. And for many of our poorest families, that ultimately worked toward our own destruction.


Whitey was notoriously opposed to the busing plan, sponsoring militant violence against the pro-busing Boston Globe and the Kennedy homestead in Brookline. [5] But no one made out from busing like Whitey did. He rose to ascendance precisely during the chaos of busing. Just like we jumped into the arms of career politicians, so many of our poorest were ready to jump into the arms of anyone promising protection from the enemy “out there”—some of those enemies fabricated, some of them real. In proudly Irish-American Southie, as helicopters hovered overhead, as police marched through the streets in riot gear, as snipers stood on our rooftops, many people equated busing with the British occupation of the north of Ireland. Indeed, the State Board of Education, which devised the busing plan that Garrity approved, was not only stacked with WASP names like “Saltonstall”—but also, Charles Glenn, who wrote the plan, was descended from Ulster Protestants. [6] In a show of solidarity and that famously Irish insistence to “stand one’s ground,” many South Boston public school students—the neighborhood’s poorest, those who could not escape to private or parochial schools—boycotted and eventually dropped out.

A generation was lost to that chaos.

In 1981-1982 Boston public schools had the country’s worst attendance rates. And South Boston High School’s attendance the worst in the city, averaging a daily rate of 55.6 percent, more than fourteen percentage points lower than any other Boston public school. [7] Throughout the 1990s, South Boston’s white public school students held the city’s highest dropout rate, no doubt the legacy of busing and a sense of “lost schools” combined with the lure of the streets, which seemed at the time to offer so much to so many.

And who ran the streets? In Southie’s three large housing projects where he reigned supreme, busing gave Whitey a large population of poor, unemployed teenage dropouts, a lucrative market for the drugs he brought in, and a source of recruitment for all the Southie-based criminal enterprises that brought Whitey a cut. [8]

And so our poorest families were summarily slaughtered in these years and in the following decades by our protector’s drugs and crime.

I grew up in the belly of that beast. One of Southie’s top three cocaine distributors who paid Whitey tribute, Paul “Polecat” Moore, lived only one apartment over from my family at 8 Patterson Way in the Old Colony Housing Project. Every day I saw the constant traffic of known lesser dealers at Polecat’s door, most of whom were of that very first generation of busing dropouts. I smelled the freebasing in our cellars and hallways, and saw the “baseheads” regularly chasing each other down the streets with hockey sticks. Worse, we heard the gunshots more and more until Whitey—not wanting the attention that street crime was getting among our imagined enemies in Roxbury—cleverly put a stop to all that noise, reportedly making an example of those who would engage in open gunfire, while keeping the cocaine flowing.

And our unemployed busing dropouts were most readily swept up into criminal activity, whether bank robberies or truck hijackings, most of which also lined Whitey’s pockets. In my own family of ten children growing up with a single mother in Old Colony Project, five of the eight who entered Boston Public High Schools dropped out. Of those five, three died young; one is crippled and severely brain-damaged from the era’s drugs, crime, and violence; and I am the fifth. While my sister lay in a coma for four months, I sat by her bed every day instead of going to classes at Boston Latin. Rather than be kept back, I dropped out of Latin—and got my assignment to Madison Park High School in Roxbury. But there was no way, at sixteen in the still racially tense Boston of 1981, that I would agree to be the one white kid (and from Southie!) at Madison Park. Instead, I got a GED and went to UMass. But I had already lost too many older siblings to Whitey’s trade to go that route and become another casualty. I suppose that’s why I am still alive.

But not everyone in my neighborhood saw through the myths. Throughout the late 70s, 80s, and 90s we felt more and more separate from the city of Boston. Southie became a world unto itself, despised as “racist white trash” by mainstream middle class and wealthy white liberals outside—those who had treated us as if we were the privileged white ascendancy that we were not. Too many of my neighbors continued to believe we were “protected” by our political power base who pretended to fight for our interests, keeping blacks and crime out, while our own homegrown gangsters lured us into hell. In all four decades since busing, Southie consistently held one of the city’s highest death rates from drug overdose and suicide, often competing for that distinction with similarly working class and poor white Charlestown, which similarly exploded in the Phase II busing plan in the fall of 1975.

Who comes right behind us in those dire public health statistics? Roxbury, also working class and poor, mostly black and Latino. They led us in homicide headlines—probably because Whitey limited street shootings and made sure his bodies disappeared and could not be found. [9]

Way back in 1974, the very first year of busing—way before we lost all those kids to overdoses and before Roxbury lost all those kids to gun violence—social scientists had declared South Boston and Roxbury “death zones” for their tragic health indicators, including infant mortality rates. [10] Though our own leaders never touted such things, I have to wonder whether it would have been that difficult for Judge Garrity and his “expert” planners Richard Dentler and Marvin Scott or the Mass. State Board of Education to know such things. If they did, would they have cared?

Author Jonathan Kozol’s "Death at an Early Age," first published in 1967, had helped inspire Boston’s black communities to call—and rightfully so—for a more just allocation of funding and access to better education. But in Kozol’s 1985 epilogue to that book, he lamented the “Pyrrhic victory” of desegregation, with its top-down busing plan that had been willfully oblivious to on-the-ground realities, and which ultimately didn’t increase anyone’s access to high-quality education. In fact, it did the opposite. Kozol wrote that today in Boston, “Poor whites, poor blacks and poor Hispanics now become illiterate together.”

Many of the adults of Boston’s busing battle are gone. Judge W. Arthur Garrity passed away in 1999 at the age of 79, Louise Day Hicks in 2003 at age 87, Robert Dentler in 2008 at age 79. Gone too are many of the young people from those days, although they died young and not so peacefully. Still alive at 85, James “Whitey” Bulger, after sixteen quite comfortable years on the lam, is finally in prison for racketeering and 11 direct murders, but not for the hundreds upon hundreds of drug-related indirect murders of young people we lost in Southie through the years. The reality of Jonathan Kozol’s statement can be seen not only in our shared post-busing literacy rates and related death statistics, it can be felt most profoundly today in the reality that poor and working class people of all complexions can no longer afford to live in that city whose turf we fought over, died on, and ultimately lost to speculators and developers who—just like the politicians, policymakers, and gangsters whose careers were made during busing—had none of us in mind.

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868587
12/02/15 02:19 PM
12/02/15 02:19 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,237
naples,italy
furio_from_naples Offline
furio_from_naples  Offline

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,237
naples,italy
This is a historic charts of Irish OC maybe some errors

Spillane Gang
Time Period: 1942-1976
Location: New York City
Neighborhood: Hells Kitchen in Manhattan

1. Bill Beatie (1967-1974) A soldier, joined the Westies in 1974.
2. Eddie "The Butcher" Cummisky (1956-1974) A lieutenant, joined the Westies in 1974, murdered in 1976.
3. Tom Devaney (1956-1976) Spillane's second-in-command, murdered in 1976.
4. John "Cockeye" Dunn (1942-1949) Eddie McGrath's second-in-command, the brother-in-law of McGrath, executed in prison in 1949.
5. Daniel "Danny" Gentile (1942-1947) A soldier, became a police informant in 1947.
6. Tom "The Greek" Kapatos (1945-1977) A Greek-American soldier, murdered in 1977.
7. Eddie McGrath (1942-1959) First boss, retired in 1959, died four years later at the age of 57.
8. James "Jimmy" McManus (1965-1976) A soldier, Spillane's brother-in-law.
9. Andrew "Squint" Sheridan (1942-1949) A soldier, executed in prison in 1949.
10. Michael "Mickey" Spillane (1953-1976) Second boss, became boss after Eddie McGrath retired in 1959, murdered in 1977.

The Westies
Time Period: 1974-Present
Location: New York City
Neighborhood: Hells Kitchen in Manhattan

1. Bill Beatie (1974-1986) A soldier, formerly a member of the Spillane Gang, became an informant for the FBI in 1986.
2. William "Billy" Bokun (1974-Pr) A lieutenant, imprisoned in 1988, released in 2001, reported to be still active.
3. James "Jimmy" Coonan (1974-1988) First boss, Sentenced to 75 years in prison in 1988.
4. John "Jackie" Coonan Jr. (1974-1988) A soldier, brother of Jimmy Coonan, died of AIDS in 1988.
5. John "Little Jackie" Coonan III. (1993-Pr) John Bokun's second-in-command, son of John Coonan and nephew of Jimmy Coonan, reported to be still active.
6. Jason Coonan (1995-Pr) A soldier, son of John Coonan and nephew of Jimmy Coonan, reported to be still active.
7. Edward "Eddie" Cummiskey (1974-1976) Jimmy Coonan's second-in-command, formerly a member of the Spillane Gang, murdered in 1976.
8. John Bokun (1995-Pr) Current boss, nephew of William Bokun, became boss after Bosko Randonjich was sent to prison in 1999, sent to prison for smuggling marijuana in February 2012.
9. Thomas "Tommy" Collins (1974-Pr) A soldier, sent to prison in 1988, released in 1997, reported to be still active.
10. Francis "Mickey" Featherstone (1974-1986) Became Jimmy Coonan's second-in-command after Eddie Cummiskey was murdered in 1976, left the gang after becoming an informant for the FBI in 1986.
11. John "Johnny" Halo (1974-Pr) A soldier, reported to be still active.
12. Tommy Hess (1974-1982) A soldier, murdered in 1982.
13. Kevin Kelley (1977-1990) Second boss, became boss after Jimmy Coonan was sent to prison in 1988, sentenced to 40 years in prison in 1990, released in 2011, no longer active.
14. Anton "Tony" Lucich (1974-1985) A soldier, passed away in 1985.
15. James "Jimmy Mack" McElroy (1976-1993) A soldier, became an informant for the FBI in 1993.
16. Bosko "The Yugo" Randonjich (1988-1999) Third boss, became boss after Kevin Kelley was sent to prison in 1990, went to prison in 1999, released two years later and moved back to Yugoslavia.
17. Richard "Mugsy" Ritter (1974-Pr) A soldier, imprisoned in 1988, released in 2008, reported to be still active.
18. Richard "Richie" Ryan (1974-1986) A soldier, died of alcohol poisoning in 1986.
19. Kenneth "Kenny" Shannon (1982-Pr) A soldier, reported to be still active.
20. Brian Bentley (1990-Pr) A soldier, ran a burglary ring from 1990-1992, sentenced to 25 years in prison in 1992, reported to be still in prison.
21. John Bokun (1974-1977) A soldier, brother of William Bokun and father of John Bokun, murdered in 1977.

North Side Gang
Time Period: 1910-1935
Location: Chicago
Neighborhood: North Side of Chicago

1. Dean "Dion" O'Banion (1910-1924) First boss, murdered in 1924.
2. Earl "Hymie" Weiss (1910-1926) A lieutenant, murdered in 1926.
3. Vincent "The Schemer" Drucci (1910-1927) A soldier, full blooded Italian-American, killed by a cop in 1927.
4. George "Bugs" Moran (1910-1935) Second boss, became boss after Dion O'Banion was murdered in 1924, moved out of town in 1935.
5. Samuel "Nails" Morton (1910-1922) A soldier, murdered in 1922.
6. Louis "Two Gun" Alterie (1916-1935) A soldier, murdered in 1935.
7. Dan "Handsome Dan" Duffy (1922-1924) A soldier, murdered in 1924.
8. James Clark (1918-1929) Bugs Moran's second-in-command, the brother-in-law of Bugs Moran, murdered in 1929 at the St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
9. Frank "Tight Lips" Gusenburg (1914-1929) A tough Jewish soldier, murdered in 1929 at the St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
10. Peter Gusenberg (1914-1929) A tough Jewish soldier, brother of Frank Gusenberg, murdered in 1929 at the St Valentine's Day Massacre.
11. Adam "Adam Hayes" Heyer (1916-1929) A soldier, murdered in 1929 at the St Valentine's Day Massacre.
12. William "Willie" Marks (1913-1929) A lieutenant, bodyguard of Bugs Moran, defected and joined Al Capone as an associate in 1929, murdered in 1934.
13. Ted Newburry (1919-1933) A lieutenant, murdered in 1933.
14. Albert "Gorilla Al" Weinshank (1920-1929) A soldier, murdered in 1929 at the St. Valentine's Day Massacre.
15. William "Billy" Skidmore (1913-1930) A soldier, saloon owner and gambler, defected and joined Al Capone as an associate in 1930, died in 1949.
16. Leo Mongoven (1924-1935) A soldier, bodyguard of Bugs Moran, died of natural causes in 1985.
17. Joe White (1920-1930) A soldier, moved out of town in 1930.
18. Frank Foster (1924-1930) A lieutenant, worked under Bugs Moran until joining the Capone Mob as an associate in 1930.
19. George Davis (1926-1935) A soldier, driver for Bugs Moran.
20. Herman Walters (1925-1932) A tough Jewish soldier, went missing in 1932.
21. Francis Callanaugh (1925-1935) A soldier, joined the North Side Gang at the age of 19.
22. James Patrick "Big Jim" O'Leary (1910-1925) Early Chicago gangster, ran gambling on the North Side of Chicago, died of natural causes in 1925.

The Combine
Time Period: 1923-1933
Location: New York City and Providence

1.Wlliam "Big Bill" Dwyer (1923-1926) Boss from 1923 until he retired in 1926, died in 1946.
2. Owney "The Killer" Madden (1923-1933) Boss from 1926 until 1933, former member of the Gophers street gang, owned the Cotton Club, died in 1965.
3. Charles "Vannie" Higgins (1923-1932) boss of the Brooklyn faction of the Combine, owned the El Fey Night Club, murdered in 1932.
4. Danny Walsh (1923-1933) leader of the Providence faction of the Combine, close friend of Joe Kennedy of Boston, kidnapped and murdered in 1933.
5. William "Bad Bill" Bailey (1923-1933) A soldier, member of the Brooklyn faction, died in 1944.
6. Robert "Whitey" Benson (1923-1931) A soldier, member of the Brooklyn faction, murdered in 1931.
7. Irving Bitz (1923-1933) A soldier, member of the Brooklyn faction.
8. Chick Hyland (1923-1933) A soldier, former member of the Gophers street gang.
9. Joseph Walsh (1923-1933) A soldier, member of the Providence faction, brother of Danny Walsh, died in 1947.
10. George "Big Frenchie" De Mauge (1923-1933) French member, Owney Madden's second-in-command.
11. Carlton O'Brien (1925-1933) A soldier, member of the Providence faction, murdered in 1952 at the age of 49.

The Celtic Club
Time Period: 1975-1977
Location: Cleveland
Neighborhood: Collinwood

1. Danny Greene (1975-1977) The boss of the Celtic Club, formerly an associate of the Cleveland LCN, became an informant for the FBI in 1974, murdered in 1977.
2. John Nardi (1975-1977) Italian-American soldier, Danny Greene's second-in-command, formerly associated with the Cleveland LCN, murdered in 1977.
3. Kevin Joseph McTaggart (1975-1977) A lieutenant, cousin of Danny Greene, became an associate of the Cleveland LCN in 1977, been serving a life sentence since 1983.
4. Brian O'Donnell (1975-1977) A soldier, reported to be still alive.
5. Bill Duffy (1975-1977) A soldier, not known if he is still living.
6. Danny Greene Jr. (1975-1977) A soldier, son of Danny Greene, reported to be still alive and living in Cleveland.
7. Keith Ritson (1975-1977) A lieutenant, once a Golden Gloves boxer, murdered in 1982.

Winter Hill Gang
Time Period: 1960-Present
Location: Boston, Somerville, Everett and Quincy

1. James "Buddy" McLean (1960-1965) First boss, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1965.
2. Howard "Howie" Winter (1960-1977) Second boss, World War II veteran, ran New England's Irish Mob from 1965 until he was sentenced to 20 years in prison in 1977, released in 1987, no longer active, still alive and well.
3. Salvatore "Sal" Sperlinga (1965-1980) Italian-American gangster, lieutenant under Whitey Bulger, murdered in 1980.
4. Edward "Teddy" Deegan (1960-1965) A soldier, member under Buddy McLean, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1965.
5. Patrick Nee (1975-1990) Well respected soldier, former United States Marine, member under Bulger, connected to the IRA, sentenced to 27 years in prison in 1990, released in 2003, retired and still lives in South Boston.
6. James "Whitey" Bulger (1972-1995) Third boss, took over the leadership after Howie Winter, owned the South Boston Liquor Mart, became an undercover informant for the FBI in 1975, went missing in 1995, found and sent to prison in 2011.
7. Kevin "Two" Weeks (1982-2000) Fourth boss, became an informant for the FBI in 2000.
8. George "Georgie Boy" Hogan (1985-Pr) Current boss, took over the leadership when Weeks defected, living in Boston at the age of 60, reported to be still active.
9. Anthony "Tony Blue" D'Agostino (1960-1965) A soldier, Italian-American hitman, bodyguard of Buddy McLean, went missing in 1965 after being shot and wounded by the McGlaughlin's.
10. Thomas "Tommy" Ballou Jr. (1960-1970) A soldier, Buddy McLean's driver, murdered in 1970.
11. Steven "The Rifleman" Flemmi (1970-1997) Italian-American member, Bulger's second-in-command, became an undercover informant for the FBI in 1975.
12. Kevin O'Neil (1975-2004) A soldier, owned Triple O's Lounge in South Boston, sentenced to 10 years in prison in 2004, reported to be still in prison.
13. John "Red" Shea (1985-1992) A lieutenant and drug dealer, became a street soldier at the age of 20, sentenced to 20 years in prison in 1992, released in 2000, not active, enjoys his life as an author with two books out.
14. John Martorano (1976-1999) A soldier, half Irish and half Italian descent, became an informant for the FBI in 1999.
15. John Joseph "Mick" Murray (1980-Pr) A soldier, released from prison in 2011 after serving 9 years behind bars, reported to be still active.
16. Jerry "Poker Face" Perkins (1973-Pr) A soldier, lives in South Boston, reported to be still active.
17. Thomas Ballot Jr. (1960-1970) Buddy McLean's bodyguard, murdered in 1970.
18. Louis "Louie" Litif (1976-1982) Lebanese-American bookmaker and Winter Hill Gang soldier, murdered in 1982 by Bulger.
19. William "Billy" Brymer (2001-Pr) A soldier, currently in prison for being involved in a car jacking.
20. Michael "Captain" Rocke (2000-Pr) A soldier, living in South Boston, reported to be still active.
21. Frederick Finnerty (1989-Pr) A soldier, living in Dorchester, reported to be still active.
22. Scott McDermott (2004-Pr) A soldier, currently living in Everett, reported to be still active.
23. James "Jimmy" Simms (1981-1986) A soldier, went missing in 1986 after being released from prison.
24. Bobby "Spike" Watson (2000-Pr) A soldier, lives in South Boston at age 46, reported to be still active.
25. Joseph "Joe Mac" McDonald (1960-1997) A soldier, original member of the Winter Hill Gang, World War II veteran and street fighter, the FBI's Top Ten Most Wanted fugitive, arrested in 1982 before he could turn himself in, died in 1997 just after being released from prison.
26. Edward "Eddie Mac" MacKenzie (1985-1993) A soldier, former drug dealer, not active, co-author of the book "Street Soldier: My Life as an Enforcer for Whitey Bulger and the Irish Mob."
27. James "Jimmy Pez" Flynn (1978-Pr) A soldier, small time actor, can be seen in such films as Good Will Hunting, What's the Worst That Could Happen? and The Cider House Rules, reported to be still active.
28. Richard Demas (1992-Pr) Hogan's second-in-command, known as a thief.
29. Paul "Pole Cat" Moore (1980s-1993) A soldier, became a police informant in 1993.
30. James M. Murphy (1968-1990s) A soldier, not active, once on Boston Police Department's Most Wanted List in the 1970s.
31. Timothy A. Connolly (1984-1989) A soldier, half Irish and half Italian descent, worked for Bulger until becoming an informant for the FBI in 1989, owned the Corner Cafe.
32. Michael "White Mike" McArdle (2002-Pr) A soldier, living in Quincy, reported to be still active.
33. Tommy Cahill (1987-Pr) A soldier, reported to be still active.
34. Vincent James "Jimmy The Bear" Flemmi (1973-1978) A soldier, brother of Steven Flemmi, sentenced to 50 years in prison for murder in 1978, died of a heroin overdose one year later in prison.
35. William "Billy Boy" Hogan (1989-Pr) A lieutenant, brother of George Hogan, reported to be still active.
36. James Turpin (1988-Pr) A soldier, currently in prison for selling drugs.
37. Richard "Richie Rich" Turpin (1978-Pr) A soldier, uncle of James Turpin, reported to be still active.
38. James Montgomery (1995-Pr) A soldier, selling vicodin and okycodone pills on the streets of Boston, reported to be still active.
39. Thomas Ryan (1967-Pr) A soldier, living in Boston at the age of 80, reported to be still active.
40. Patrick "Dizzy" Coarke (2000-Pr) A soldier, living in Quincy, reported to be still active.
41. Ralph Valencourt (1986-Pr) A soldier, living in Boston at the age of 54, reported to be still active
42. Jeff "Sidearm Lenny" Linberg (1997-Pr) A soldier, half Irish and half German descent, street fighter, reported to be still active.
43. Gregory McGlaughlin (1980s-Pr) A soldier, not related to the McGlaughlin's from Charlestown, reported to be still active.
44. Robert "Bobby Quarters" Nee (1978-Pr) A soldier, living in Boston at the age of 62, reported to be still active.
45. Russell Nicholson (1960-1964) A soldier, original member of the Winter Hill Gang, formerly a police officer, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1964.
46. Harold "The Killer" Wright (1967-1995) A soldier, top hitman for Bulger & Flemmi, not active, still alive and living in Ventura, CA.
47. Alexander "Alex" Petricone (1960-1972) Well respected soldier, full blooded Italian-American, left the Winter Hill Gang to pursue a career in acting in 1972, later became a big star under the name Alex Rocco, played Moe Green in the Godfather.
48. Frederick "Freddy" Weichel (1978-1980) A soldier, sentenced to 50 years in prison for murder after Bulger informed on him to the FBI, released in 2004 after the conviction was overturned, went back to prison two years later after the Massachusetts Supreme Court reinstated his conviction, many people say he was not involved in the murder.
49. Leo McDonald (1960-1975) A soldier, brother of Joseph McDonald, went missing in 1975.
50. Joseph Donahue (1978-2000) A soldier, nephew of Joseph & Leo McDonald, died in 2000.
51. Brian "Balloon Head" Halloran (1980-1982) A soldier, became an informant for the FBI in 1982, murdered in 1982 by Bulger after FBI agent John Connolly told him Holloran was an informant.
52. James Sousa (1973-1974) A soldier, full blooded Portuguese-American, became an informant for the FBI in 1974, murdered by Whitey Bulger and John Martorano in 1974.
53. George Joynt (1960-1961) A soldier, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1961.
54. Anthony "Fat Tony" Ciulla (1973-1978) A soldier, half Irish and half Italian descent, master at fixing races, became an informant for the FBI in 1978.

McGlaughlin Bro's
Time Period: 1952-1966
Location: Boston
Neighborhood: Charlestown

1. Bernard "Bernie" McGlaughlin (1952-1961) First boss, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1961.
2. George "Georgie" McGlaughlin (1952-1966) A soldier, brother of Bernie McGlaughlin, died in 1987 at the age of 60.
3. Edward "Punchy" McGlaughlin (1952-1965) Bernie's second-in-command, brother of Bernie & Georgie, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1965.
4. Cornelius "Connie" Hughes (1952-1966) A soldier, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1966.
5. Steve Hughes (1952-1966) A lieutenant, brother of Connie Hughes, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1966.
6. Samuel "Sam" Lindenbaum (1952-1966) A soldier, the McGlaughlin's Jewish member, worked for the gang doing loansharking, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1966.
7. Harold Hannon (1952-1965) A soldier, murdered in 1965 by the McGlaughlin's.
8. Wilfred J. Delaney (1952-1964) A soldier, murdered during the Irish Mob Wars in 1964.
9. John "Maxie" Shackelford (1958-1966) A soldier, not known if he is still living.
10. Arthur "Art" Doe Sr. (1959-1966) A soldier, murdered in 1967.
11. James "Spike" O'Toole (1958-1966) A lieutenant, murdered in 1973.
12. John Locke (1961-1966) A soldier, stil alive and well.












THE END

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868590
12/02/15 02:27 PM
12/02/15 02:27 PM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,237
naples,italy
furio_from_naples Offline
furio_from_naples  Offline

Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,237
naples,italy
The Westies

William "Billy" Bokun (1974-Pr) A lieutenant, imprisoned in 1988, released in 2001, reported to be still active.
John "Little Jackie" Coonan III. (1993-Pr) John Bokun's second-in-command, son of John Coonan and nephew of Jimmy Coonan, reported to be still active.
Jason Coonan (1995-Pr) A soldier, son of John Coonan and nephew of Jimmy Coonan, reported to be still active.
John Bokun (1995-Pr) Current boss, nephew of William Bokun, became boss after Bosko Randonjich was sent to prison in 1999, sent to prison for smuggling marijuana in February 2012.
Thomas "Tommy" Collins (1974-Pr) A soldier, sent to prison in 1988, released in 1997, reported to be still active.
John "Johnny" Halo (1974-Pr) A soldier, reported to be still active.
Richard "Mugsy" Ritter (1974-Pr) A soldier, imprisoned in 1988, released in 2008, reported to be still active.
Kenneth "Kenny" Shannon (1982-Pr) A soldier, reported to be still active.
20. Brian Bentley (1990-Pr) A soldier, ran a burglary ring from 1990-1992, sentenced to 25 years in prison in 1992, reported to be still in prison.

Winter Hill Gang

George "Georgie Boy" Hogan (1985-Pr) Current boss, took over the leadership when Weeks defected, living in Boston at the age of 60, reported to be still active.
John Joseph "Mick" Murray (1980-Pr) A soldier, released from prison in 2011 after serving 9 years behind bars, reported to be still active.
Jerry "Poker Face" Perkins (1973-Pr) A soldier, lives in South Boston, reported to be still active.
William "Billy" Brymer (2001-Pr) A soldier, currently in prison for being involved in a car jacking.
Michael "Captain" Rocke (2000-Pr) A soldier, living in South Boston, reported to be still active.
Frederick Finnerty (1989-Pr) A soldier, living in Dorchester, reported to be still active.
Scott McDermott (2004-Pr) A soldier, currently living in Everett, reported to be still active.
Bobby "Spike" Watson (2000-Pr) A soldier, lives in South Boston at age 46, reported to be still active.
Jammes "Jimmy Pez" Flynn (1978-Pr) A soldier, small time actor, can be seen in such films as Good Will Hunting, What's the Worst That Could Happen? and The Cider House Rules, reported to be still active.
Richard Demas (1992-Pr) Hogan's second-in-command, known as a thief.
Michael "White Mike" McArdle (2002-Pr) A soldier, living in Quincy, reported to be still active.
Tommy Cahill (1987-Pr) A soldier, reported to be still active.
William "Billy Boy" Hogan (1989-Pr) A lieutenant, brother of George Hogan, reported to be still active.
James Turpin (1988-Pr) A soldier, currently in prison for selling drugs.
Richard "Richie Rich" Turpin (1978-Pr) A soldier, uncle of James Turpin, reported to be still active.
James Montgomery (1995-Pr) A soldier, selling vicodin and okycodone pills on the streets of Boston, reported to be still active.
Thomas Ryan (1967-Pr) A soldier, living in Boston at the age of 80, reported to be still active.
Patrick "Dizzy" Coarke (2000-Pr) A soldier, living in Quincy, reported to be still active.
Ralph Valencourt (1986-Pr) A soldier, living in Boston at the age of 54, reported to be still active
Jeff "Sidearm Lenny" Linberg (1997-Pr) A soldier, half Irish and half German descent, street fighter, reported to be still active.
Gregory McGlaughlin (1980s-Pr) A soldier, not related to the McGlaughlin's from Charlestown, reported to be still active.
Robert "Bobby Quarters" Nee (1978-Pr) A soldier, living in Bost

Re: Does the Irish Mob still exist in the US ? [Re: 2a] #868806
12/04/15 04:08 PM
12/04/15 04:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,094
Moe_Tilden Offline
ForeverBotheringIranians
Moe_Tilden  Offline
ForeverBotheringIranians

Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 5,094
The only Irish connection to the Aryan Brotherhood is their adoption of the shamrock (or clover) for their prison tatts.

The people they attract were and are by and large not Irish.


I invoke my right under the 5th amendment of the United States constitution and decline to answer the question.
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