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Why did Willie Cicci rat? #860540
09/19/15 06:03 PM
09/19/15 06:03 PM
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Don_Alfonso Offline OP
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Don_Alfonso  Offline OP
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We get that Frank Pentangelli turns informer because he thinks Michael betrayed him and probably feels he's a dead man either way - Moe Greene wants him dead, so does Mike, so who else is he going to turn to?

But what about Willi Cicci? He was one of Michael's inner circle guys, at least at the end of GF I, I mean he was trusted enough with whacking a Five Families boss. He was part of Sonny's crew and seemed line one of his main guys as well (In almost scene where Sonny is Acting Boss, Willi is with him as both bodyguard and enforcer)...His turning witness was surprising.

Last edited by Don_Alfonso; 09/19/15 06:04 PM.
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #860639
09/20/15 03:56 PM
09/20/15 03:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,513
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

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Originally Posted By: Don_Alfonso
We get that Frank Pentangelli turns informer because he thinks Michael betrayed him and probably feels he's a dead man either way - Moe Greene wants him dead, so does Mike, so who else is he going to turn to?

Moe was killed near the end of GF. That was way before Pentangeli came into the equation.

Quote:
But what about Willi Cicci? He was one of Michael's inner circle guys, at least at the end of GF I, I mean he was trusted enough with whacking a Five Families boss. He was part of Sonny's crew and seemed line one of his main guys as well (In almost scene where Sonny is Acting Boss, Willi is with him as both bodyguard and enforcer)...His turning witness was surprising.

The impression I got was that by II, Cicci was totally loyal to Pentangeli, not to Michael. Pentangeli was in NY, Michael in NV. I'll guess that the FBI told Cicci that his boss had flipped, and Cicci inferred it ws ok for him to flip.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #860739
09/21/15 02:18 PM
09/21/15 02:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 341
North America
Mr. Blonde Offline
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Mr. Blonde  Offline
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I'm inclined to agree with Turnbull. Pentangeli had earned his loyalty and therefore, he felt the way to demonstrate loyalty was to flip. Ironic.

Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #861398
09/27/15 02:38 PM
09/27/15 02:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
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olivant Offline
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If the feds had Frankie on murder and extortion, I'm sure they had Cicci on the same.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #861496
09/28/15 11:04 AM
09/28/15 11:04 AM
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Posts: 46
Indiana
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Bozak Offline
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Bozak  Offline
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In the end, these are criminals who will do anything in the interest of self preservation. Cicci was no different. He was far removed from Michael at that time and felt no loyalty to him.

I do wonder what became of Cicci though. Do we think he got whacked?

Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Bozak] #861523
09/28/15 03:50 PM
09/28/15 03:50 PM
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AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted By: Bozak
I do wonder what became of Cicci though. Do we think he got whacked?

Good question. There was no witness protection program at the time. I doubt that Cicci was important enough to merit 24/7 protection that Pentangeli was promised. They'd probably put him in prison for a reduced sentence in return for his cooperation, and perhaps in an administrative segregation unit. But Michael would find a way to get him if he wanted to.


Would he? Michael had two reasons to whack Pentangeli. First, Pentangeli knew enough about him, firsthand, to be a danger to him down the road, even if he was no longer a credible witness against Michael. The FBI would keep pumping him for info they could use against Michael. Second, he had to show enemies and potential enemies that no one ever gets a pass from Michael Corleone, no matter how "securely" they're being held. I'm not sure either would apply to Cicci.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #861613
09/29/15 09:42 AM
09/29/15 09:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 46
Indiana
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Bozak Offline
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Bozak  Offline
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Wiseguy
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Indiana
Yes, but Cicci had information that could have taken Michael down for good. He was involved in the murders of the heads of the 5 families and could/would have pointed the finger directly at Michael. He was also involved in the murder of Tessio. He had more than enough information to warrant a death sentence.

Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Bozak] #861716
09/29/15 11:18 PM
09/29/15 11:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,513
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

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Originally Posted By: Bozak
Yes, but Cicci had information that could have taken Michael down for good. He was involved in the murders of the heads of the 5 families and could/would have pointed the finger directly at Michael. He was also involved in the murder of Tessio. He had more than enough information to warrant a death sentence.

Sure, he had plenty of info on the family, and no doubt he testified about the family's operations and his own role: "You mean you kill people at the behest of your superiors?" "Yeah, that's right, counselor." But, Cicci testified, under oath, that he never got a direct order from Michael: "No, I never talked to him." That statement was enough to provide Michael with enough legal wiggle room to deny everything that Cicci said.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #861801
09/30/15 03:01 PM
09/30/15 03:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 46
Indiana
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Bozak Offline
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Bozak  Offline
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Wiseguy
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Indiana
I doubt that somebody like Michael would take that chance. Cicci would have been taken out along with Frankie. No doubt about it.

Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #861914
10/01/15 10:16 AM
10/01/15 10:16 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black Offline
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Sonny_Black  Offline
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For what it's worth, Cicci returned as a character in an earlier draft of the screenplay of Part III. He was only replaced by Joey Zasa when actor Joe Spinell died. So according to Coppola and Puzo, Cicci was apparantly forgiven and even promoted after his betrayal, and would turn against Michael yet again in Part III. They probably didn't given much thought to it, or perhaps they intended to replace him anyway in a newer draft.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Sonny_Black] #862004
10/01/15 11:31 PM
10/01/15 11:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,513
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
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Originally Posted By: Sonny_Black
For what it's worth, Cicci returned as a character in an earlier draft of the screenplay of Part III. He was only replaced by Joey Zasa when actor Joe Spinell died. So according to Coppola and Puzo, Cicci was apparantly forgiven and even promoted after his betrayal, and would turn against Michael yet again in Part III.

Thanks for finding that, Sonny. smile
Quote:
They probably didn't given much thought to it, or perhaps they intended to replace him anyway in a newer draft.

The problem with III is that they didn't give much thought to the whole damned script. Period.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Turnbull] #862006
10/02/15 12:10 AM
10/02/15 12:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
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olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,020
Texas
Originally Posted By: Turnbull

Quote:
They probably didn't given much thought to it, or perhaps they intended to replace him anyway in a newer draft.

The problem with III is that they didn't give much thought to the whole damned script. Period.


Exactly!


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: olivant] #862365
10/04/15 02:59 PM
10/04/15 02:59 PM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black Offline
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Sonny_Black  Offline
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Originally Posted By: olivant
Originally Posted By: Turnbull

Quote:
They probably didn't given much thought to it, or perhaps they intended to replace him anyway in a newer draft.

The problem with III is that they didn't give much thought to the whole damned script. Period.


Exactly!


I'll second that.

And you're welcome TB. I actually have the 2nd draft of the screenplay of Part III, which is not available for free on the web (only the first one is). If you guys have any questions of what's in the script, feel free to ask.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Turnbull] #862394
10/04/15 08:10 PM
10/04/15 08:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 3,374
Alabama
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dixiemafia Offline
ROLL TIDE!!!!!
dixiemafia  Offline
ROLL TIDE!!!!!
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Alabama
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: Bozak
I do wonder what became of Cicci though. Do we think he got whacked?

Good question. There was no witness protection program at the time. I doubt that Cicci was important enough to merit 24/7 protection that Pentangeli was promised. They'd probably put him in prison for a reduced sentence in return for his cooperation, and perhaps in an administrative segregation unit. But Michael would find a way to get him if he wanted to.


Would he? Michael had two reasons to whack Pentangeli. First, Pentangeli knew enough about him, firsthand, to be a danger to him down the road, even if he was no longer a credible witness against Michael. The FBI would keep pumping him for info they could use against Michael. Second, he had to show enemies and potential enemies that no one ever gets a pass from Michael Corleone, no matter how "securely" they're being held. I'm not sure either would apply to Cicci.


Would he have killed Cicci? I think so. Remember at the end of 2 when Tom keeps trying to talk him out of killing Roth? He even said he was beat and had no chance at Mike anymore and he said something about "just wanting to kill my enemies" and by that point Cicci was his enemy too. So in my opinion is that he would have killed Cicci.

Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #865768
11/05/15 11:47 PM
11/05/15 11:47 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,393
Tampa, Florida
johnny ola Offline
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johnny ola  Offline
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Posts: 1,393
Tampa, Florida
Originally Posted By: Don_Alfonso
We get that Frank Pentangelli turns informer because he thinks Michael betrayed him and probably feels he's a dead man either way - Moe Greene wants him dead, so does Mike, so who else is he going to turn to?

But what about Willi Cicci? He was one of Michael's inner circle guys, at least at the end of GF I, I mean he was trusted enough with whacking a Five Families boss. He was part of Sonny's crew and seemed line one of his main guys as well (In almost scene where Sonny is Acting Boss, Willi is with him as both bodyguard and enforcer)...His turning witness was surprising.


He got a better job offer loan sharking in Philly and making Rocky his collector.


I love my Chrysler and tuna fish sandwiches.
Re: Why did Willie Cicci rat? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #869619
12/14/15 01:37 PM
12/14/15 01:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 44,945
DE NIRO Offline
DE NIRO  Offline

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Posts: 44,945
I have a hard time believing that Cicci would have been given a pass by Michael, I mean Michael even had his Brother killed so he's not going to let a button off..


The Mafia Is Not Primarily An Organisation Of Murderers.
First And Foremost,The Mafia Is Made Up Of Thieves.
It Is Driven By Greed And Controlled By Fear.

Between The Law And The Mafia, The Law Is Not The Most To Be Feared

"What if the Mafia were not an organization but a widespread Sicilian attitude of hostility towards the law?"

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