Well we finally agree lol, Merchant of Venice any one?

NYC and the surrounding area is big but has 8 families. Chicago has one family. Each of the boroughs by themselves is smaller than Chicago.

You're comparing loanshark cases in the past 15 years to determine loanshark activity 30-50 years ago?

Is there any hard evidence Tieri was the biggest loanshark ever? One statement by the NYPD before a trial means nothing without evidence backing it up. Did they provide any figures as to how they determined he had more money on the streets than anyone in the history of the mob?

Nah that can't be true. NYC is so big that there was no competition or fighting over rackets and money.

If you're going to start posting numbers, you have to go with the entire NY metro area, which includes all of areas I mentioned earlier in this thread. NYC has something like 8 million people. But the greater NY area has around 20 million. So YOU do the math.



It doesn't irk me. Tooped said he thought that certain Chicago guys at certain times were bigger loansharks than some NY guys listed. Now maybe some of the Outfit guys were bigger than some of the NY guys mentioned previously but, as much as he's tried, it's still not really clear why he would go to that conclusion. Nothing any of you have posted have been convincing in any way that the Outfit guys cited were the biggest. Now, you may say the same to me about Tieri but, we do have the statement by the NYPD and the fact he was a major earner in the family long known for having the biggest gambling and loansharking operations. Yet you guys keep trying to question the possibility of Tieri being the biggest when there's a lot less to support the claim about Chicago guys. That suggests to me you're biased for whatever reason.



I don't have to go to the quote by the NYPD in the 1970s. The fact that the Genovese family has always had the largest gambling and loansharking operations would be a better reason to assume they had the biggest loansharks than any argument you have yet to produce. But like I said, believe what you want. That you keep trying to argue this leads me to believe you WANT to believe something and aren't necessarily looking at this objectivity.

And by the way, why are you talking as if Tieri's loansharking interests were wholly contained in Stein's shy operation?



Why do you keep trying to bring up historical points to make your case when you get them wrong at least half the time?

Gravano was doing really well in the construction rackets under Paul. He joined the plot against Castellano for other reasons including because Paul was planning to break up the Gotti crew, him selling out Piccolo to the Genovese family, etc. The latter wasn't a case of him "cannibalizing" Piccolo (ie for his own benefit) but putting his business relationship with Chin above what benefited his own family and backing one of his captains.



Obviously there have been plenty of disagreements that have required sitdowns. But not fighting. Even with a territory as big as the greater NY area, and the money involved, there's still going to be plenty of greed and those who will try to take whatever they can. But the distinct lack of violence between families in NY over the years shows how successful they were at avoiding contention that ended in bloodshed.




As I said above, you have to look at the greater NY metro area, where the NY families have always operated. Even with multiple families there has evidentally been enough money and then some for them all. A family simply having a given territory all to itself doesn't mean that territory is as lucrative. The Outfit still has all of Chicago to itself today. If it benefited so much from being the lone family in the past, why do we see so few loansharking cases today? If there's any rackets that should have stood the test of time, it's bookmaking and the accompanying loansharking.

If you don't think there's enough "hard evidence" to think Tieri was the biggest loanshark, fine. But, as I keep saying, the fact that the NYPD thought so, and because he was known to be a major earner in the richest and most powerful family long known for having the biggest gambling and loansharking operations is a hell of a lot better reason to assume he was than any of the Chicago guys mentioned.

Fair enough on the tieri thing, I will say this about the gambling, one of my friends just bet a ton this weekend on some site online based in Europe somewhere,..
But I have no idea how a sophisticated shy op works today with the online betting,
And Ivey, you are too smart a guy for us to keep getting into these little spiffs, it's silly, we all got a morbid fascination here lol

Here are some notable juice operators during the early 1960’s in Chicago…

Fiore Buccieri, the kingpin of the loan shark racket, oversaw three crews. One crew was led by Angelo LaPietra, the second one by Frank Buccieri and the third one by Angelo Severino. Sometimes these three crews were overseen by James Torello. Most notable members in LaPietra’s crew were James LaPietra, Louis DeRiggi, Carlo Morrelli, Johnny Monteleone, Steve Annoreno and Alfred Milstein. In Severino’s crew most notable juice men were Tony Monaco, Angelo Petitti, Frank Teutonica, Joe Rossi and Tony Ozzanto. Frank’s crew was made of Joe Spadavecchio, Carmen Buccieri, Chris Seritella, Tony Eldorado, Tony Catalano, Mike Tenore and John Varelli. Buccieri had spread his operations also in Gary and Hammond, Indiana and Milwaukee, Wisonsin. This group handled more than 3 million dollars a year.

Sam Battaglia’s juice crew operated in Melrose Park, Stone Park and Lakehsore and also in Gary and Hammond, Indiana, Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Tucson, Arizona. Battaglia’s crews were mostly involved in lending money to companies that were on the downfall. For example in 1963 Battaglia lent $150,000 to the Lazarus Company, which resulted in fraudulent insurance claims and robberies. The Twin Food Company, which was known for the horse meat scandal, was a front for one of the biggest juice operations in Chicago headed by Felix Alderisio, Albert Frabotta and Leo Rugendorf. Also the Sterling-Harris Automobile Agency was making weekly payments to Rugendorf and Alderisio. Rugendorf forced the sale of 356 autos from the Sterling-Harris Ford agency to collect on one loan. The Bastone brother, especially Carmen Bastone also operated in the Melrose Park area. Their pime member was Tommy Tucker. If someone lent $500 from Tucker his juice payments were $50 a week. Rocco Pranno also operated a large scale of juice operations in Stone Park. Also Joseph DiCaro, associate of, Sam Battaglia’s crew had few big juice operations going onin Tcson, Arizona. This crew handled more than 3 million dollars a year.

Sam DeStefano’s crew operated on the West Side. Most prominent juice lenders were Peter Cappelletti, Tony Spilotro, Mario DeStefano, Art Pascucci and Sam Gallo. These guys handled 2 million dollars a year.

Lenny Patrick’s juice crew operated in the Lawndale area and Rogers Park. His most prominent juice operators were Jack Patrick, Morris Goldstein, Mike Patrick, Eugene Lufman, Norm Rottenberg and one known as Ruby “The Mule” last name unknown. These guys also handled juice operations in Gary and Hammond, Indiana and also in Dallas. Sam Yaras was their guy in Dallas. This crew handled about 2 million dollars a year.

Joseph "Big Joe" Arnold and Mike Glitta were involved in the juice loans on the North Side. Members of Arnold’s juice crew were Lawrence “Hornsby” Moretti, Lawrence “Larry the Hood” Buonaguidi, Joseph “Red” Amari, August Giovenco, Victor Musso, Michael "Bones" Albergo, Libero “Tony” Ingignoli and Thomas Immerso. James Allegretti and Caesar DiVarco also handled juice operations mostly on taverns and restaurants and thats why in the end the ended up owning almost every joint on the North Side.These guys handled 1.5 million dollar a year juice loan racket.

Joseph Gagliano, William Messino, Joseph Lombardo, John DiFronzo, Albert Sarno and Chris Cardi. These guys operated in Elmwood Park and their territory was bordered west by Austin Avenue, east by Ashland Avenue and south by Madison Av. This crew handled $500,000 a year

Willie Daddano had his own juice ledning headquarters on the corner of Cermak and Central Av. in Cicero. His crew was made of Tony DeRose, Buck Clemente, James Tortorella, John Allegretti, Frank Fratto, Ralph Detente, Mike Détente, John Reda and Alex Ross. This crew handled about $250,000 a year.

James Mirro was a Taylor Street guy but had his own headquarters on Grand Avenue where he operated large scale juice operations. His number one guy was James Capezio.

The Bravos brother, Nick and George, were known bookies all around the Chicago area but they also operated a successful juice supply of cash to their customers for many years. Some of their victims paid $300 a week interest. Bravos handled a high interest juice loan business and usually the debtors were kidnapped and severely beaten by him if they didn’t pay the required payments.

Jimmy Catuara from Chicago Heights also handled a large scale of juice operations. His crew was made of Billy Dauber, Gus Rubino and D'Andrea brothers, especially Nick D'Andrea. Their juice operations were mostly located in Gary, Indiana.


So in the end the Outfit made over 15 million of dollars a year and don’t forget that this was in the early 1960’s. The number of population doesnt prove anything, the kind of juice victims are the ones that count. And Evey League if you want to talk about numbers, lets talk about numbers than... Illinois had 11 million people in 1960's, Indiana had like 5 million, Wisconsin had like 4 million, Nevada had like almost half a mil and dont forget the operations in Miami, Dallas and Arizona and the fact that we are talking about one crime family here so somebody do the math around here please I’m done with this topic, cheers

MVP post, thanks Toodoped

Your're welcome Cabrini

Omg I was done till I saw that Marcelo comment, now I know you are really a fanboy lol!
Tell fuckin Bobby Kennedy Marcello was a nobody lol

Assume, they had the biggest loan sharks, see the problem here?
Assuming, I gave you a link that said Forlano was the biggest shark in ny, and he's from the smallest family, but you don't want to see it.
You don't want to see the stein connection, like I actually gave YOU the evidence of funzi being a big shark by illustrating the stein connection, you just keep saying hes in NY and the genovese are the biggest, like that's an explanation. Lol
But the MArcello thing, man Ivey, what the fuck do you think little Appalachin was for???
Like you tell me, why a sit down with all these bosses to decide on who rules NO?
Didn't the guy control the gulf of MExico, lots of narcotics smuggling, or do you think no he's a slave to New York?
So RFK went to all that trouble for a small operator? Really? Please...

That was mz point on the spot,if you want numbers and your looking at the NY metro area look at chi metro area its the same thing.Those numbers I posted were just the cities by it self.And ivy my friend,if I see that comment of yours again "Genovese were the biggest familly and had the biggest shy and gambling operations" im gonna sign out for good.Tooodoped has given some great arguments,you just repeted your self time and time again.

Nice info Toodoped

You're talking about something different. There are the types of gambling websites where you need a credit or debit card to make deposits. And you gamble with the money deposited and winnings or losses are credited to or taken out of your account. There's no loans involved by these legit companies. They already have your money so they don't need to worry about you paying up if you lose.

The sites the mob uses are ones that both the player and his bookie can access. The player can register his bet, and how much, online or over the phone to an offshore website or phone number. The bookie can then look to see if the player won or lost and how much money is owed. There's no online deposits. The actual paying or collecting is all done in person. The sites are simply used so the bettors can easily place their bets and the bookie isn't dependant on the old fashioned wire room that is more easily tracked down and busted by the cops. Because the mob takes bets on credit, that's where loansharking comes in.



First, I think I've asked this before but have you ever been diagnosed with ADD?

Second, I'm not ignoring the Tieri/Stein connection. I just don't know why you seem to think Tieri's inteterests were wholly containef in Stein's operation. At least that's what you seemed to be saying.

Third, while you choose to explain it away, the NYPD said Tieri was the biggest. Considering Tieri was known to be a big earner, with extensive gambling and loansharking operations in and outside NY, in the richest family known for having the biggest operations of that kind, it seems reasonable to me that Tieri was probably the biggest. But, hey, that's me.

Fourth, nobody said Marcello wasn't wealthy or had clout in his own right. But you claiming he was the top boss on the country is absurd. And, relatively speaking, he was a small operator compared to any of the NY families. He always intentionally kept his crime family membership small (built around his blood family).

Absolutely last post, Costello got ran out NEwYOrk BY the MAyor, went to the boss of New Orleans who could pay off the GOvernor, small time operator, ok Ivey, good day lol...

@ivyleague

it's impossible for ny mobsters not to compete with each other

ny mobsters compete with members of their own family for rackets, territory, etc.

you saying that ny has more action than 8 or 9 cities combined is ludicrous

Why is it so hard to find a loan in Cleveland

You keep posting these stupid loan questions and you'll be all ALONE. Stop it!!

It's wild, I know, but there are things called "Credit Cards" where you get "credit". Crazy concept, I know.

1. NYPD thought he was the biggest at the time, not of all time.

2. Greater NYC area had 7 families operating.

I was only trying to make two points with Ivey;
One, I tried to explain the relationship between Ruby STein and the biggest loan sharks in ny, it seemed basically whomever he was with at the time, put them right up there with the biggest sharks, he had a book worth millions apparently, and worked with more than one family...
Also, I wasn't even saying the biggest shark wasn't from ny, but seemed weird that if it was a guy from the genovese, a few guys woulda had more cash, like Fat Tony..
No one from CHicago was going to compete with NY in the 80s, but Tod mentioned BUccieri, from like the 40s n 50s, but he kept saying no, cause Chicago or anywhere else is not NY! A frustrating debate lol...