America is just unique, who cares if Italian-Americans call themselves Italian? In America, if you say "I'm Italian" or "I'm Irish," it is typically assumed that you are talking about ethnicity. You'd have to specific that you were born in Ireland, for example, if you say you're Irish. That's my generation, anyway.

La lingua significa ancora molto per alcuni di noi seconda generazione degli Americani, Furio. Molto. E non dimenticate , ho vissuto a Cosenza per diciotto mesi.

Sorry, SC. Back to English. It was all innocent, anyway. I promise .

Yes SC I confirm,is an innocent phrase:



A year and a half in cosenza? my max was 15 days a year for four years, the first near London and the other in waterford, limerick and Dublin. I was underage and the travels were organized for the sons of public employees.

I understand from your treat you have fifty y or more (if I understand) when you went to Cosenza?

Yes, this was in the very early '80s, and I stayed in the very home where one of my grandparents was born in Lauropoli, so that helped. And of course, I've visited close to a dozen times since. My Mom's people are up in Matera. It's only a two-hour drive, so when we go back it's easy to visit both sides.

Thanks SweetP. I misunderstood.

Consenza. I knew that sounded familiar. I've been carrying their patron saint pic for almost 20 yrs in my wallet and I'm not even Calabrese. It was given to me. You never told me that's where your family is from. And--Mr. October, you never told me you could roll your rrr's like Caruso. Being able to speak the dialects FLUENTLY is impressive. So you can understand the Napuletan dialect too, JimmyR? That's 3 for you. I must give you 3 meows for that Meow Meow Meow or Rrrrrrrrrrrrrr Rrrrrrr Rrrrrr

If you are a fourth generation Italian-American then you really don't care much about the language or culture which is a shame. My cousins couldn't be bothered with any of it. They're only in it for the food and family part. I am the ONLY one in my family of 4th gen who cares about that type of stuff. It's probably because I'm the oldest great grandchild and spent the most time around the 1st and 2nd generation who spoke mostly Italian. I learned the language BUT not enough to say I can speak it well. I can speak much better Spanish than Italian.


You're a little different, that's for sure. Oh Daddy, hey, You're the King! Big Daddy, you make the Scene!! Baby, You're the BoSS!!
(I bet you know where I got that from, see if you can guess it right)

Now back to John Gotti being fluent in Italian
I'm embarrassed just thinking about him trying to speak Italian. My best guess is he probably butchered the language just like my father did.

My father is 3rd gen so he could understand Italian and should be able to speak it right? Nope not him. When he tried to speak it he'd butcher it OR he'd use words that my great grandpa made up.
He would excuse himself from the table and say something crazy like:
Va a un bacahassa. (He doesn't even use the right verb conjugation) plus that's not even an Italian word; he sounded tacky and vulgar.
He's saying I'm going to the BACKHOUSE
There used to be a backhouse before they had the bathroom in the house. My grandparents really should have taken the time to teach him the right way but they said they wanted him to speak English not Italian.
I'd tell him please don't try to speak your crazy Italian language when we'd be around the ICF older members who spoke it fluently. Save that stuff for only family. It was so embarrassing.

The title of the post shoukd really be : " did Gotti speak fluent english"

This is exactly my point.

You would never hear "bahhk-howsa" (spelling it phonetically) in Rome. But you'd hear it a thousand times a day in the Hurst.

Italian-AMERICAN is its own special culture. Yes Pizza is a second generation who understands the culture in both worlds (italy and the bronx) but what about all the Italians in South Philly, and all over parts of NY who only know a few words, but still eat macaroni every sunday and 7 fishes on Christmas. They might have the big rope chain with le corna or the little gold malocchio hand on it, sometimes right next to a crucifix (that always used to break me up....)

My point is we have our own culture that we created right here in this country. Its not the "real" Italy italian, its Italian American.

Spot-on, Salvi.

I heard Skinny Joey Merlino speaks fluent Italian though.....

co-sign. People birth culture, not vice versa.

this thread keeps bringing me back to the sopranos when paulie was in italy i laughed that entire episode

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxT442bSG68

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phQ6fGd5QR8

lol baca houzza

this thread is a trip! my grandfather was from Campania and would use bacchousa a lot. I thought he made it up lol. One thing I appreciate about this site is all the little info about the culture that myself as a younger guy might not have known or known was so universal.

Op did I not hear the tapes- Gotti could speak fluent italian. He would sit there & utter the words "minchia, la cosa nostra, capodecima " all day long

"For La Cosa Nostra... A La Cosa Nostra!"

Its not La Cosa Nostra. Its Cosa Nostra. He just added an A before it.

I know, Bean. That's why I put in the quote and unquote, I was quoting him.

Sorry Clean.

I doubt it, aside from Joe Ligambi and Chickie who are older and probably first generation I doubt anyone in the Philly Mob can speak Italian.

One thing is it's probably harder for Americans of Italian descent like John Gotti to learn or speak Italian than it is others.

I'd say Gotti was dyslexic and or couldn't read or write English, let alone Italian - similar to a lot of mobsters back in the day.

I'd say it makes a difference if you have a strong family base growing up. IDK if Gotti had that. His father was absentee, right?

That was a great episode by the way

I was completely joking about Skinny Joey Merlino...

Haha, I think everyone knew, Dante.

correct

Anyone have any info on Gotti's father? Associated with OC?

Also Wiki states there were five brothers initiated (John, Gene, Peter, Richard and Vincent). Anyone have any info on Vincent? Still active? Crew? Photo?

It also states there were 13 siblings. Any info on what became of the rest? Any still alive?

Cheers

Here's an article on Vincent:
Banned thug Vincent Gotti finally made it to crime time, then feds nabbed him Seems to be the family foul-up in a family full of them.

IIRC from Capeci's book and elsewhere, Dad Gotti wasn't in the life and was a hard-luck type.

Great stuff LG. My thanks.

Appears he did some time. Arrested in 08 Gambino sweep he only got out this year.

Italians in America are a melting pot of their own. Most recently immigrated ones (who got here in 70s, 80s, 90s), and their progeny, don’t always feel like they have anything in common italian-culture-wise with the descendants of the earliest waves of the 1880s, 1910s, 20s and 30s. And it makes total sense.

There are plenty of 1st and 2 generation italians who speak the language fluently tho. They are a minority within italian-americans, sure, and the lack of general knowledge about them undermines the relevance of the later immigration waves.
Official US Govt. data shows that Italy still provided the largest number of european immigrants as late as the mid-1980s. Not saying that the 70s, 80s and 90s brought more italians than between the 10s and 40s, of course not, but the most recent waves have yet to be properly addressed even by the academia.

Not to mention mix-generation households, such as mine: dad’s michigan-born, mom’s italian-born. he speaks decent sicilian and so-n-so italian, mom speaks perfect italian and brescian. I speak native-speaker italian but both my sicilian and brescian are beyond embarrassment. Same thing with my cousins and their buddies in ny and nj, most of whom (mid-20s, early 30s) were born here to foreign-born parents. They are a minority within a minority I know, but they deserve to be mentioned.

Many of those who moved here post-1960 didn’t settled in large, segregated urban ghettos as the as pre-WW2 italians. It was a suburban immigration. Long island, non-ny centric new jersey, upstate new york, w. new york, w. pennsylvania, w. mass., ct., michigan townships, illinois and many other locales are filled of later immigrated italians. They are more of a less visible minority as opposed to the millions who lived squished one next to the other in tenements and slums between the late 1800s and early 1900s.




^ yes italian-americans have managed to grip on their culture and identity more so than the descendants of italian immigrants elsewhere.

Sometimes with odd outcomes, but it’s still admirable.

You and I are on the same page, LK. But when it comes to the Diaspora, and the Italian-American experience in general, we usually are .

right. it sure is.



this is a great compliment PB. much appreciated.

Since that I'm at it, I’m gonna go ahead and share my own stubborn ethnic-identification canvas for italian-americans®. remember that, as with everything concerning ethnicity and culture, it’s all extremely subjective. this is no gospel: I’ve met 1st generation italians who were completely detached from their culture and 4th generation guys who spoke better than me and travelled to Italy twice a year.
This being said:

1. ITALIANS
it should be quite self explanatory, but unfortunately it isn’t. By this I mean those who moved here after being raised there. I’d say anyone who got here after the age of 15/18. That's more than enough for Italy to mess you up.
There’s a misconception that paints Italy merely as a culture. It isn’t just that. Italy is also a nation, with specific borders, politics and whatever that comes with it. Living through the social repercussions of such local politics, economy and cultures is key to gather that sense of belonging to a localized territory. Therefore I don’t care if you speak fluent italian, have blue and brown passports and cook better than my granny…if you were raised in freaking Seattle you were not shaped by Italy. Is that simple.

Fictional media representative: Furio Giunta


2. ITALIAN-AMERICANS
now things get blurry. I firmly believe that ethnic identification goes well beyond language, which it’s sure important, but is not the sole representative factor that a specific ethnicity pours upon you. The upper midwest is an great example of this. Needless to say that only a fringe minority up there speaks norse, swedish, dane, finn or some other northern dialect. And most of those who do are mostly found in retirement homes anyway, getting ready for valhalla.
That said, it’s undeniable that scandianvian culture is still alive and breathing through different social representations and life experiences. How people relate to society, religion, family, food, folklore, gender-reletions, politics, and even criminality it’s all still dictated by those traces left behind by past generations. This is where italian-americans stand: if any of these subcultures had an impact on their personas, even if they were influenced by just a few, is enough to get rightfully associated with this broader umbrella group.

Fictional media representative: Tony Soprano


3. ITALIAN-LASTNAMED AMERICANS
this is when attrition took over after squashing them with the hammer of assimilation. Baring an italian last name or a lithuanian one makes no real difference for them … they’d mispronounce it anyway.
Neither italian nor italian-american cultures have influenced their upbringing and their heritage is brought up only when friends and neighbors come over for dinner and they show them old dusty pictures of unknown ancestors.
They might have some living relative who belongs to either subgroup 1. or 2., but they see him as some sort of exotic weirdo.

Fictional media representative: Dr. Bruce Cusumano