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Re: Associate question?
[Re: ItalianIrishMix]
#831652
03/05/15 04:17 PM
03/05/15 04:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 32
Michigan
Big_T
THE ENFORCER
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THE ENFORCER
Wiseguy
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 32
Michigan
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I am currently reading Alite's book and he makes reference to some associates being such major players that they have their own crews.....He refers to Jimmy Burke....I know Jimmy Burke was a major player but is it possible for a major associate to actually oversee made guys within a crew of theirs? Or, would their crews only contain other non-made guys? You could theoretically call any organized group of criminals a "crew", but no, an associate cannot be in charge of a group that consists of all or some made guys. A made guy could certainly do some work or a job with a group of associates, which probably often applied to Burke's crew at times. This is further illustrated by Burke's eagerness for Desimone to get his button ( instead of getting clipped, which is what is actually happened ).This just illustrates how money is the supreme god in the mob. Burke was a prolific earner and wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty when needed, which is why half Italian, half Irish Jimmy the Gent was allowed to live, and 100% Italian Desimone "had to go".
Last edited by Big_T; 03/05/15 04:18 PM.
" No matter how big a guy might be, Nicky would take take him on. You beat Nicky with fists, he comes back with a bat. You beat him with a knife, he comes back with a gun. And if you beat him with a gun, you better kill him, because he'll keep coming back and back, until one of you is dead! "
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Re: Associate question?
[Re: Binnie_Coll]
#831660
03/05/15 05:25 PM
03/05/15 05:25 PM
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Joined: May 2013
Posts: 15
jordsta
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 15
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I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.
but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.
but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner. Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy. DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head. Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison. That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself.
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Re: Associate question?
[Re: ItalianIrishMix]
#831661
03/05/15 05:37 PM
03/05/15 05:37 PM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 576
NY
blacksheep
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 576
NY
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There are times when an associate is clearly superior to the made guy in an operation in terms of effectiveness but I don't know about making it official as a boss/subordinate operation. I don't think the wiseguy ego could take it. Generally it'll be a partnership deal where the associate runs the show under protection. Those types of situations give associates influence that creates some extreme power tho.. so it might not be official, but an associate who makes big money can flex his muscles even against made guys, if he has the right friends
Make that coffee to go
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Re: Associate question?
[Re: jordsta]
#831711
03/06/15 11:03 AM
03/06/15 11:03 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021
far, northwest
Binnie_Coll
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021
far, northwest
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I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.
but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.
but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner. Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy. DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head. Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison. That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself. yes,fine post, that's exactly what happened, and nobody deserved it more than tommy desimone. the information I got came from "the Sinatra club" by sal polisi.
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Re: Associate question?
[Re: ItalianIrishMix]
#831714
03/06/15 11:16 AM
03/06/15 11:16 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,234
naples,italy
furio_from_naples
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,234
naples,italy
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I think the question should be put in these terms: the associate is Italian or not ?
If yes,he could "made"; Gotti was acting capo of the Fatico crew even he was an associate; Corallo, when the Abate the Jersey Crew boss in the early 1970 went into semi-retirement,choose as jersey boss Accetturo despite he wasn't made until 1976,because Accetturo represented the Mafia ideal: loyal, trustworthy and a good earner.
The mafia mentality about not-Italian associates is: yes, we make business with us,they made a lot of money for us, etc. but they aren't like us and never will be like us.
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Re: Associate question?
[Re: furio_from_naples]
#831719
03/06/15 11:28 AM
03/06/15 11:28 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021
far, northwest
Binnie_Coll
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021
far, northwest
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I think the question should be put in these terms: the associate is Italian or not ?
If yes,he could "made"; Gotti was acting capo of the Fatico crew even he was an associate; Corallo, when the Abate the Jersey Crew boss in the early 1970 went into semi-retirement,choose as jersey boss Accetturo despite he wasn't made until 1976,because Accetturo represented the Mafia ideal: loyal, trustworthy and a good earner.
The mafia mentality about not-Italian associates is: yes, we make business with us,they made a lot of money for us, etc. but they aren't like us and never will be like us.
yes, furio I think you are quite correct concerning the Italians. murray Humphries in the book "the outfit" mentions that every time something came up for a vote the Italians always voted together. he says "in forty years they were always voting together"
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Re: Associate question?
[Re: Mmalioni]
#831720
03/06/15 11:47 AM
03/06/15 11:47 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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I am currently reading Alite's book and he makes reference to some associates being such major players that they have their own crews.....He refers to Jimmy Burke....I know Jimmy Burke was a major player but is it possible for a major associate to actually oversee made guys within a crew of theirs? Or, would their crews only contain other non-made guys? Virtually without exception, the answer would be no. And that's keeping in mind there can be a distinction between the influence a high-level associate may have and them actually having official oversight (authority) of made members. As said, Burke didn't oversee any made guys. Gotti may have been given oversight of the Fatico crew but it was understood he was soon to be made. He already would have been if not having been in prison. In Chicago at least there are a lot of instances in which made guys were in practice, although maybe not in theory, subordinate to non made guys/associates.
Examples:
Hy Larner clearly directed the activities of the Bastone brothers
The Bosses took the side of Frank Rosenthal over Anthony Spilotro
Casey Szaflarski ran video poker in the city
Jake Guzik was the #2 in his era Spilotro being killed for the heat he brought down on the Outfit doesn't show Rosenthal had any oversight of Spilotro. Szaflarski ran one of the Outfit's video poker operations - due in no small part to being related to Frank Caruso. But that doesn't mean he oversaw any made members. One basically has to go waaaay back to the days of Guzik, Humphreys, etc. to find actual examples. And even then there's the question of the "made status" of guys back then.
Last edited by IvyLeague; 03/06/15 11:52 AM.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Associate question?
[Re: jordsta]
#831791
03/07/15 08:27 AM
03/07/15 08:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 32
Michigan
Big_T
THE ENFORCER
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THE ENFORCER
Wiseguy
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 32
Michigan
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I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.
but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.
but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner. Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy. DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head. Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison. That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself. Great post Jordsta. I didn't know Vario actually drove Desimone to his clipping! One thing though. Everyone time someone mentions how Paulie was nailing Karen Hill, I feel like grabbing an ice pick, and stabbing out my mind's eye! 
" No matter how big a guy might be, Nicky would take take him on. You beat Nicky with fists, he comes back with a bat. You beat him with a knife, he comes back with a gun. And if you beat him with a gun, you better kill him, because he'll keep coming back and back, until one of you is dead! "
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Re: Associate question?
[Re: Big_T]
#831793
03/07/15 08:40 AM
03/07/15 08:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,595
manchester uk
domwoods74
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,595
manchester uk
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I think you are right in regards to the death of desimone, after all burke was in on the killing of billy batts also, and he had taken over batts loan sharking book while batts was in prison.
but, desimone was the one that got clipped. also he killed a guy named foxy that didn't sit to well with gottis crew.
but, no one seemed to ever bother jimmy burke no matter what he did. too big of an earner. Al d'arco stated Bruno facciola had something to do with driving desimone to his death Yeah, Foxy was killed by DeSimone when they both fell foul due to DeSimone having a terrible stance and mindset on women; abusing, treating them like dirt, etc. Foxy was the opposite, he respected and was a one-woman kind of guy. Anyway, DeSimone and Foxy's sister started flirting which Foxy disagreed with, but his paranoia got the better of him. DeSimone always winded Foxy up about his sister. Until he found out DeSimone has beaten his sister... they went out looking for each other, DeSimone went out to prove a point that he won't be fucked with, Foxy went out looking to kill because he raised his hands to his sister - who he cherished and wanted to avoid hooking up with a mobbed up guy. DeSimone knocked at Foxy's sister's house, Foxy said nothing and just clonked him on the nose, DeSimone fell back and removed his gun, shooting DeSimone in the head. Vario was still reluctant on giving up DeSimone, yeah. Although, John Gotti and his crew were waiting for the moment to jump on the chance, that came 4 years later I think when Vario found out DeSimone tried it on with Henry Hill's wife and hit her... Although only because Vario was having an affair with Karen behind Henry Hill's back when he was in prison. That was when Vario decided to give him up. Actually, Vario drove DiSimone to the 'made' ceremony himself. Great post Jordsta. I didn't know Vario actually drove Desimone to his clipping! One thing though. Everyone time someone mentions how Paulie was nailing Karen Hill, I feel like grabbing an ice pick, and stabbing out my mind's eye!
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