When i think of a traitor it means someone who purposely switches sides to hurt or kill their current boss. Guys like tessio and carlo were true traitors. In fredos case he was just stupid and naive. Sure he might be a little envious but he loves his family especially mike. In his mind he wasnt trying to take over the family or hurt mike, i think he just wanted show he could help mike like tom and neri do but it backfired. Now some consider him a traitor in order to justify mikes actions of killing him. He clearly had no idea roth would try to kill mike.

Lying to Michael to his face about your relationship with Johnny Ola and Hyman Roth tends to be a career-limiting move.

Yeah but he knows exactly how Mike is. Even though he loves mike he knows mike would kill anybody he thought had betrayed him

I would like to believe that Fredo was just stupid, not a traitor. But I can’t. Just consider:

--He betrayed Michael for personal gain: “Johnny Ola said there’d be something in it for me.”
--His outburst at Michael showed he deeply resented being passed over for the Donship. That tells me either Ola implied, or Fredo inferred, that what was in it for Fredo was that he’d be the Don. Only way he could have been the Don was if Michael was dead.
--Fredo knew that Pentangeli had survived and the Feds were holding him, and that the Senate lawyer, Questad, “belonged to Roth.” Only way Fredo could have known that is if Ola and/or Roth told him. That shows he was in with them far deeper than he let on.

Fredo does say that he was convinced what he did would be good for the family. It doesn't make any difference to Michael, though, because his issue is whether Fredo can be trusted not to put the rest of the family at risk.

i dont buy that fredo had any malicious intent its just not his character. I admit he was envious but i still feel all he wanted was a little credit as a mobster and didnt necessarily want to be a boss. Fredo was stupid but still had a good heart. I think some try to convince themselves that fredo was ruthless in order to justify mikes actions. Mike is the main character and a interesting one at that so of course most people will root for him even though he is the bad guy

Michael was an arch criminal who could have walked away from the criminal life at any time, but chose not to. He doesn't have my sympathy. Fredo's "good heart" nearly got his brother and sister in law massacred. He doesn't have my sympathy either.

If there's one moral to the Godfather Trilogy, it's this: Crime Doesn't Pay.

Well Fredo it was stupidity but there is still no evidence that would suggest he would or wnated to hurt mike. Im not a Fredo fan or anything just going by what i saw

Hello all I signed up awhile ago but it took awhile to verify my account so this is my first. I've been reading a lot of posts here though. I really like everyone's insight into these movies as I've seen them many times (not the 3rd one though I can't get into it).

As for Fredo, in short, I am basically in agreement with Turnbull here. His first post pretty much sums up the motivation for his betrayal. I would say that is enough evidence to provide the motivation for his betrayal (circumstantial? Yes, but still evidence).

I just don't see how anyone other than Fredo (or Fredo telling someone to do it) could have opened the drapes. Ola probably told Fredo to open the drapes on the night of the party, and then either Fredo or someone that Fredo told to do it, opened the drapes. What other explanation is even possible?

So, if he opened the drapes, what exactly did he think was gonna happen if it was NOT a hit? Ok, he's stupid, but is he that stupid? I have a hard time buying it. Fredo may have been dumb, but he was still a mobster. I think he was fully capable of putting 2 and 2 together and he knew what he was doing.

Fredo was weak, but at times showed charm (how he worked the room as the party planner in Havana), and was actually able to get out of Havana alive on his own (that takes some smarts and/or balls even if he had help from Roth's people to get out). He showed some signs of being "shmarter" than given credit for.

Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the film makes it clear how ELSE Fredo could have possibly betrayed Mike if it wasn't to set up the hit? So what exactly did Fredo think he was doing, that he knew was something of a betrayal to Mike, but not a hit?

If Fredo simply talked business with Roth/Ola about "closing the deal fast", what exactly does that even mean? How else would Fredo "help with the negotiations and close the deal fast"?

Eliminating one of the parties so you can make the deal yourself is the only logical explanation as to how he could help "close the deal fast".

So, despite what he said about him saying he didn't think it was going to be a hit to Michael, I think he simply had to know. I don't know how ELSE Fredo could have betrayed him.

I will admit that he did sound sincere when he said that to Mike, and earlier in Havana when he lied to Mike you can tell he was lying. So that would indicate that maybe he is telling the truth when he said he didn't think that it was going to be a hit.

However, I simply can't give him the benefit of the doubt because there really is no other reasonable explanation for what else he could possibly think was going to happen to Michael. The only reasonable explanation to me is that Fredo was lying.

Fredo was stupid but is not his character to be ruthless especially against his own blood. Look if you want to say he was envious about being treated like a errand boy i would agree. However unlike Carlo and Tessio Fredo would never knowingly hurt his family at least thats the way his character is portrayed

I agree with Crush; Fredo would not facilitate murder of a family member. He told Michael why he aligned himself Roth and I believe him.

I understand what you are saying, he doesn't show any real signs of ruthlessness that we see on the screen.

But he was there when they killed the hooker in his brothel, correct? Also, he did knowingly hurt Michael (his family) on some level at the very least, when he went behind his back and made some sort of deal with Roth/Ola?

I can't say I'm totally convinced he is not capable because it's not in his character (although I get the point).

If I had a reasonable explanation as to what Fredo thought he was doing when there was "something in it for me", or a reasonable explanation as to who else could have possible opened the drapes, I may buy that Fredo didn't know. But again, I don't have these explanations, and I do believe he showed the resentment toward Mike. Therefore I can only draw one conclusion.

The thing about Fredo is that he really didn't think about anything beyond what was in front of him at the time.

So it's easy to say things like closing the deal fast meant getting Michael out of the way or that if Fredo was going to get a piece of the action meant that Michael would pushed out or killed, but I really don't think that Fredo considered this.

Either because he was stupid or blinded by greed and jealousy, I really believe that he just took Roth/Ola at their words and didn't consider the consequences of his actions.

That doesn't necessarily mean that he's not a traitor but I don't think that he was knowingly aiding in the assassination of his brother.

The reasonable explanation is what he told Ola: "You guys lied to me."

Woltz, you're right. Fredo could not see the big picture nor perceive implications.

exactly. I guess my point of making this thread is to dispell the notion that fredo wanted mike dead and mike was jusified. If you want to call him a traitor for lying thats fine but im sorry i still see no evidence he wanted to hurt mike or take over the family. I know mike is the main character but lets be honest he does some really evil things in part 2

As honorable as Fredo's intentions were, he still went outside the family and put Michael's family in harm's way.

Had it been Rocco or Neri, Michael would have meted out the same punishment.

Yeah I don't dispute that Mike is a very evil person, not trying to justify Mike. I'm just not convinced that Fredo didn't know it was gonna be a hit. I'm totally looking at it from that angle only.

Yes, the "you guys lied to me" could be the other major explanation as to why Fredo wouldn't know. I should have mentioned that earlier, along with the "I swear to god it wasn't a hit" speech in the boathouse those are the 2 major arguments in favor of Fredo not knowing.

But, not knowing exactly what was told to Fredo, we don't know exactly what they would have lied to him about it. It is possible that he was referring to whatever that "something in it for me" was that they never followed through on. Maybe that was the "lie", perhaps money, or something else that he was promised that he never received.

Naturally he was scared Mike would find out, but that doesn't necessarily mean he has any remorse for what he had done. Maybe he was just scared of getting found out because he knew Mike would have him killed. And remember, in Havana he even still says "I was mad at you Mike", almost as if he finally started to really show remorse in his actions, but only at that point. Up to that point, he must have had reasons to be angry at Mike if he says flat out that he was mad at him. To me, that indicates that there could have been motivation to want Mike dead at one point in time.

Woltz, I suppose that it is possible that he was just duped into it by Ola/Roth and had no idea that it was gonna be a hit. That he really did think it was good for the family, and totally bought whatever he was told.

Certainly plausible, but while I see Fredo as being very weak, I don't necessarily see him as "dumb". Sure he can't fire the gun off, he gets slapped around by Moe, can't handle his wife, etc. None of that indicates a lack of intelligence though. The only time he really shows lack of intelligence is when he blabs about knowing Roth and Ola after he gets loaded and Mike hears it. But, he's intoxicated at that point, people say things they don't normally say all the time when drunk. He also seems to maybe have an alcohol problem, which would indicate "weakness" more than stupidity.

I mean he does pull off some things, he runs the brothel, learned the casino business with Moe, he's also smart enough to get out of Havana alive, smart enough to know about Frankie and the senate lawyer who was on Roth's payroll. So, I don't know, I think he's at least smart enough to be able to put 2 and 2 together. But maybe not.

Not sure I can buy the "blinded by greed" argument though, because in that case deep down he would have known the truth. So he would have just been trying to convince himself otherwise even though he would have known the truth.

Anyway, it was interesting to discuss this and get different points of view on the matter with you guys. It's not so much that I'm convinced Fredo knew, as much as I just still can't wrap my head around exactly HOW he couldn't have known.

Hello everyone This is a nice civilised board and I hope my writing is nice and civilised too!

My two cents worth!

I do not condone Fredo's murder....wish there was another way. Michael was still trying to get Fredo out of Havana saying Fredo was still his brother I believe Michael only reluctantly decided to kill Fredo after his boathouse outburst

Michael and Fredo, sentiments aside....

I believe Michael's comment to Tom that Fredo is weak & stupid relates to Fredo not being Don material not that he is a weak & stupid person. One of the examples, after talking to Johnny Ola on his late night phone call Fredo can still come up with “wrong number” answer to his wife! Fredo has a good heart, an example he was the only one who supported Michael joining the Marines

First of all what was Fredo doing outside the family, discussing business deals with Ola whom he 'bumped' into, in Beverly hills

What was the little help Fredo was asked to give to Hyman Roth to close the deal fast knowing Michael was being tough on negotiations

What was the something that was promised to Fredo He was Mafia family and would have known there was no chance he could operate on his own, outside the Corleone family. Hence the something, I believe, is the Donship which Fredo can only get if the current Don, Michael is dead

What did Fredo think was going to happen through the window glass pane of Michael & Kay's bedroom, the drapes of which were presumably & arguably opened by Fredo, so that the assassins would know which was Michael's bedroom and can have a clear view inside?

Fredo was mad at Michael for reasons, real or imaginary. If his little help rewards him with the Donship that was 'rightfully' his but was stepped over, at Michael's death, Fredo was happy to be the Don (albeit a puppet one controlled by Roth) I believe the “You guys lied to me” to Ola was that they had not delivered on their promise that Michael would be dead and Fredo the new Don

Why was Fredo lying about knowing Roth & Ola if he didn't have anything to hide, if he was only trying to help the family, even if his good intentions backfired And it is possible Fredo did not or could not see the consequences of his actions, beyond getting the Donship

There was also the other traitor who killed (slit their throats!) the two machine gun armed assassins The astute Roth probably courted two traitors without them knowing about the other

Finally if Fredo was sincere that he did not know it was going to be a hit, he never even apologised to Michael considering the entire Michael Corleone family (the children come and play with their toys) could have been wiped out if the assassination was successful No remorse at all still seething, resentful at being stepped over not even respecting their late father's ruling because it ain't the way Fredo wanted it

We've tried to figure this one out ourselves:

What to do with Fredo

I think Fredo's "Wrong number" explanation of his phone call from Ola is supposed to show everyone that Fredo really is that stupid. [Edit} I (obviously) don't know what Ola told him would happen, but one possibility is that they wanted the drapes open so they would see when Michael entered the bedroom so that they could search for papers or some such in Michael's office.

I believe it's in a draft script where Fredo says that he was told it was going to be a kidnapping attempt.

Fredo tries explaining to Michael that Ola approached him because the negotiations weren't going well. Regardless of the attempt on Michael's life, when you're involved in a transaction like that, you have to present a united front to the other side. And it's not like Fredo wasn't severely chastised about publicly taking sides against the family before.

Killing him was probably extreme, but something had to be done. If Fredo was allowed to go into business for himself without consequence, what message does that send to the rest of the Corleone family?

...and to Michael's enemies. Michael always felt he had to communicate to foes that no one gets a pass from Michael Corleone. That was one of the reasons he had to get rid of Pentangeli and Roth, even though they seemed to be defeated.

There should have been no secrets between the two brother's period...Fredo decided his own fate in the film GF2 after the shooting at the house... and siding with Moe Greene in the Godfather didn't seem to go over too well... although banging cocktail waitresses two at time doesn't sound that bad... although he did have to be treated for an STD in the novel

TB, who knew of Fredo's perfidy? Roth, Ola? They were both pre-fratricide deceased. So, to who was Michael illustrating his ruthlessness by murdering Fredo? Perhaps the answer to that is that once Fredo's murder circulated through the underworld, the reason for it would then have then become known. But, what would that have accomplished? What incremental fear of Michael Corleone would have ensued as a result? I don't see it. Compared to the enormity of fratricide, what advantage did Michael gain?

He got rid of Pentangeli and Roth because it was well known throughout the underworld that Pentangeli had betrayed (quite publicaly) Michael and the other wanted him dead.

Logic is on your side, Oli. Then again, in the Mafia business, logic isn't always the figure of merit. Paranoia often trumps logic.

No doubt those were the primary reasons. The Feds weren't going to give Pentangeli a free ride for the rest of his life without getting something in return. They'd have pumped him continuously. And, while his value as a witness was nil, he might have eventually given up something they could have used against Michael. Roth was simply too dangerous to live. As long as he breathed, he was a threat to Michael--look what he accomplished after suffering a near-fatal stroke and almost being suffocated.

But, the manner in which Michael engineered their deaths sent a message to his "enemies," whoever they were: Nothing stops Michael Corleone from exacting revenge. No one gets a pass.

You hit it on the head. To me, Michael's whole mindset is best summed up in the line he delivers to Tom in II. "I don't feel I have to wipe everybody out,Tom. Just my enemies". That's it in a nutshell. Mike didn't concern himself with what Fredo's motivation was,or whether he would or wouldn't be a liability in the future. By dealing with Roth,Fredo was now an enemy.

but truthfully by killing fredo he ended up in worse shape. His wife left, his son grew to hate him for killing the uncle he love, and mike eventually realized how sick it was to kill his own brother and regretted it

Notice how Michael waited until his mother passed -- was it to not shock her, or was it to lull Fredo into a false sense of security?

Either way, Michael killing Fredo was the apex of his evil behavior. From there on out, he spent the rest of his life redeeming himself; the assassinations in GF3 were orchestrated by Vincent and Connie.

Mike didn't want his mother to see another son die. As for redeeming himself in III,don't forget that Mike ordered the killing of the Archbishop,Kenzig,and Lucchese.He remained an unrepentant, vengeance driven sociopath right up until his (in my opinion)well deserved,lonely, and largely unmourned death.

After Tommasino was killed, Michael vowed to sin no more. After that, he handed control of the Corleone family to Vincent.

At the opera, Vincent bids farewell to Mary:

"Don't look at your father, it's not your father's decision, it's mine. Don't hate your father. There are things I'm going to be part of, you can't be around. After tonight, you won't see me anymore."