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What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? #824241
01/16/15 09:39 AM
01/16/15 09:39 AM
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Anytown, USA
goombah Offline OP
goombah  Offline OP

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There is part in the novel where Sonny says he was "waiting for you (Michael) to become my (Sonny's) right-arm." I think the dynamic of the two brothers running the Corleone Family would have made for an interesting twist to the storyline. It was quite obvious that Michael & Sonny were opposites in many ways: in demeanor, temperament, strategically, and intelligence. What if Sonny had not been killed and he ruled the Corleone Family with Michael after Vito retired or had Vito died from the Sollozzo attempt?

It’s obvious Michael only reluctantly entered the family business after Sollozzo tried to kill Vito. Let’s assume that still happened and Vito was incapacitated. Michael still had to flee to Sicily after killing McCluskey & Sollozzo. But what if none of the Five Families were able to knock off Sonny while Michael was hiding? So Michael comes home, Vito has recovered from his gunshot wounds but is no longer running the Corleone Family. Instead, a dual-power structure is in place with Vito’s two sons: Santino & Michael.

I think the first result is that Tom Hagen no longer has any power and is simply the Family's lawyer to maintain the appearance of legitimacy. As the novel explained, the aftermath of Vito’s shooting showed several differences between Sonny & Michael. Sonny was too often blood-thirsty. When reviewing the list of men to be killed, Michael questioned his brother and was told to “stay out of it.” Michael further showed his difference of opinion saying “that’s not how Pop would’ve played it” and advising Sonny to wait before killing more family enemies. I think these differences would have made for some interesting battles between the two brothers.

As we later saw in GFII, Michael lost a lot of his humanity and became so ruthless that killing a brother (Fredo) was not out of the realm of possibility. I think that over time, Michael and Sonny could have drifted further apart and a power struggle could have ensued. I believe that Michael had enough cunning in him that he "could've outfought Santino."

It would be an interesting debate as to who would have come out on top. On the one hand, Puzo mentioned that it was actually Santino who devised the plan to take out the heads of the Five Families. Yet it was Michael who actually executed the plan to perfection. Sonny's obvious weakness was his temper and I think Michael would have definitely been able to use that against Sonny. But Sonny was no dummy either and probably could have figured out a way to kill Michael if there were no other alternatives.

Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824244
01/16/15 10:17 AM
01/16/15 10:17 AM
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mustachepete Offline
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mustachepete  Offline
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I think that Vito's intention was to join together Sonny's forecfulness with Tom's intellect to form one good successor for himself. If Sonny hadn't been killed, I think that upon Michael's return that Vito would have tried to rehabilitate Michael's reputation, and place him at the head of the legitimate side of the family. Having carried out a hit, Michael may never have become Senator Corleone, but he'd have become a bank president or some such while providing advice whenever the family needed it.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824246
01/16/15 10:23 AM
01/16/15 10:23 AM
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Turnbull Offline
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Well-posed scenario, Goombah. smile

I interpreted the passage in the novel to mean that Sonny was waiting for Michael to drop his Ivy League persona and help Sonny wipe out the "f***s who are trying to kill our father." I didn't interpret it to mean that Sonny wanted Michael in the family business (not what Vito said he wanted for Michael), but it's not impossible to imagine Sonny needing Michael's help down the road, or if Vito had died. BUT:

Vito wanted Michael to become "Senator Corleone, Governor Corleone..." But I think he wanted Michael in high office so he could help with the legitimization of the family enterprise. As Senator or Governor, Michael would work, with Vito's help, to legalize gambling in New York or nationwide--the better to channel the Corleone gaming empire into legal casinos (as Michael later did in Nevada). Michael could also use Vito's labor support not only to help him get ahead, but to gain political allies for the cause by channeling labor money and votes to other politicians who could be converted to legalize gambling).

Sonny would head the muscle side of the business during this transition. That would be an ever-diminishing role if Vito's scenario played out. I can readily envision Sonny resenting his little brother, leading to conflict--and violence. It'd make a swell story for another movie or novel.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824247
01/16/15 10:48 AM
01/16/15 10:48 AM
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olivant Offline
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TB, you're right on about what Vito expected Michael's role to be. I look at Vito's vision as the intended evolution of the Corleone family. But I don't see Sonny engaging in fratricide except impulsively on the spur pf the moment.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: Turnbull] #824254
01/16/15 11:54 AM
01/16/15 11:54 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
goombah Offline OP
goombah  Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Well-posed scenario, Goombah. smile

I interpreted the passage in the novel to mean that Sonny was waiting for Michael to drop his Ivy League persona and help Sonny wipe out the "f***s who are trying to kill our father." I didn't interpret it to mean that Sonny wanted Michael in the family business (not what Vito said he wanted for Michael), but it's not impossible to imagine Sonny needing Michael's help down the road, or if Vito had died. BUT:



Turnbull, nor did I interpret that Sonny tried to lure Michael into the family business. But re-reading my post I now see that I didn't make that clear in writing, even though what you said is what I was thinking. blush Thanks for making the point how I intended. smile

I think that is one of the brilliant storylines of the novel that should not have been left out of the film. Sonny calling Michael's b.s. and saying "it's about time you joined us."

Which to me begs another question. It is quite clear from the novel and the film that Vito was highly intelligent. From his own experiences, Vito knows that politicians, judges, and police were very easily bribed/bought. Why would Vito want to make his own flesh & blood part of the "same hypocrisy" that he held with such contempt? I get that having Michael in would be beneficial to the Corleone empire, but for a man with such high standards, it seems to me that Vito would have been selling out putting in his son. I could see a nephew or other familiy associate as a well-placed pawn, but this just seems like too big of a contradiction to my eyes.

Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824278
01/16/15 01:41 PM
01/16/15 01:41 PM
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Its_da_Jackeeettttttt Offline
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Its_da_Jackeeettttttt  Offline
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While Vito was incredibly successful in organized crime, he realized there was even more opportunity in the becoming the pezzonovante - the one holding the strings. In the scene before his death, Vito wistfully tells Michael that he never wanted this life for him, and rather Michael were "Senator Corleone" or "Governor Corleone."

I don't have the novel handy, but at least in the film, Vito held Senators in higher esteem than Congressmen. When delegating the Enzo immigration favor, Vito wanted it to go to a particular Congressman. But it was a Senator that was actually invited to his daughters wedding; Tom mentions the judges too, but nary a Congressman.

Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824280
01/16/15 01:50 PM
01/16/15 01:50 PM
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Its_da_Jackeeettttttt Offline
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Its_da_Jackeeettttttt  Offline
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One more thing - out of all of Vito's children, Michael is the only one with an American first name (Michele is the Italian form of Michael).

Given the sentiment of America at the time, a Michael Corleone with the WASP wife and the WASP Ivy League education stood a far better chance of being elected than one named Santino Corleone or Alfredo Corleone.

Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824411
01/17/15 06:52 AM
01/17/15 06:52 AM
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waynethegame Offline
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I always interpreted that line as meaning Sonny wanted Michael to stop pretending that he was some wimp. Remember that Michael was a Captain in the Marines and fought in the Pacific, so he already had good leadership and combat skills. I think Sonny might have wanted him to be underboss or something, handle the men and logistics (things he would have already done in the Marines) and deal with the Corleone's enemies. Instead he acted like this kind of reluctant guy who was tired of war and wanted to be a math professor, and not a war hero.


Wayne

"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
Don Lucchesi
Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824600
01/18/15 05:33 PM
01/18/15 05:33 PM
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Its_da_Jackeeettttttt Offline
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Its_da_Jackeeettttttt  Offline
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I think it was more Sonny's dismissive attitude toward Michael going to college - in that closing scene in GF2, Sonny makes a pair of derisive remarks about Michael being in college, then obviously the Ivy League suit reference when Michael proposes killing McCluskey and Solozzo. I could be wrong, but I think Michael was the only one of Vito's children to go to college.

Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt] #824609
01/18/15 07:20 PM
01/18/15 07:20 PM
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Turnbull Offline
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He was. And, it raises a question: How much (if at all) did Sonny resent Michael going to college, being out of the family, and being his father's favorite? The novel makes it clear that Michael was Vito's great hope, and that he didn't think Sonny would make a good Don, even if Michael wouldn't be the new Don.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824617
01/18/15 08:45 PM
01/18/15 08:45 PM
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That hope reflects Vito's own evolution - when Santino was a baby, Vito was unemployed (thanks to Don Fanucci), broke, with little optimism. Vito's life was focused on providing for his family on a hand-to-mouth basis.

Compare that to a few years later when Michael was a baby - Vito had killed Don Fanucci, taken over and gained respect of the neighborhood. Then shortly thereafter, he goes to Sicily and avenges his parents. He's far more accomplished with even greater things in store. It's as if he can afford to think ahead and dream great things for his youngest son.

I'm speculating, but Santino probably experienced a greater level of poverty and uncertainty in his early years, whereas Michael spent his early years more comfortably. That would be a source of contention between the brothers.

Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824637
01/18/15 09:41 PM
01/18/15 09:41 PM
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olivant Offline
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Sonny's Joe College remark was affection. He didn't make the stupid remark until Michael revealed his Marine's enlistment. There was no college resentment.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: goombah] #824716
01/19/15 01:57 PM
01/19/15 01:57 PM
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Its_da_Jackeeettttttt Offline
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Its_da_Jackeeettttttt  Offline
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You're absolutely right, my mistake. I was the first in my extended family to finish a four year degree, and caught a few "Joe College" cracks along the way from some resentful family.

Re: What if Sonny & Michael ruled together? [Re: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt] #824990
01/21/15 09:51 AM
01/21/15 09:51 AM
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goombah Offline OP
goombah  Offline OP

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Originally Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt
While Vito was incredibly successful in organized crime, he realized there was even more opportunity in the becoming the pezzonovante - the one holding the strings. In the scene before his death, Vito wistfully tells Michael that he never wanted this life for him, and rather Michael were "Senator Corleone" or "Governor Corleone."

I don't have the novel handy, but at least in the film, Vito held Senators in higher esteem than Congressmen. When delegating the Enzo immigration favor, Vito wanted it to go to a particular Congressman. But it was a Senator that was actually invited to his daughters wedding; Tom mentions the judges too, but nary a Congressman.


That's a subtle, but important distinction that I had not considered. You can even hear the respectful tone in Vito's inflection when he said "Senator Corleone." In the novel, Vito disparages judges who "sell themselves out" like the worst whores on the street (or something to that effect). I think this was when he was talking to Bonasera. Later in GFIII, Michael makes quick mention how its always good to have judges friendly to the Corleone's interests.


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